So, uhh... wow? (pilot in class Bravo without clearance, McCarran)

We've had people land on the taxiway at major airports before. I knew a guy who did it at BWI. The event was so common at the old Denver (Stapleton) that they put a note on the airport diagram to warn you not to mistake taxiway C for a runway. One of Texas Air's planes did so with Lorenzo on board (that created a bit of a commotion).
 
iamtheari said:
I've been trying for 25 years of Internet usage to wean myself off emoticons. :idea:
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Oops, sorry, I didn't stop to consider that my post might be like offering an alcoholic a drink! ;)
 
MacFly said:
Generally speaking, it's unusual that a cognizant and knowledgeable pilot would accidentally land on an occupied taxiway at a major airport. At least around here. Maybe things are different in California.
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The only reason you even know those things happened is because of who it was. Anybody else and it would’ve never made the news. If you say you’ve never made similar mistakes; mistakes that could endanger others if the circumstances were different, I’ll call you a liar and not feel bad about it.

I have no idea if he’s capable of flying or not, but I know it’s not my job to decide, especially without even meeting the guy. He may very well be past the point he should be operating in complicated airspace like that. But those situations could happen to any of us. Anyone that thinks they couldn’t is lying to us and or themselves.
 
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ktup-flyer said:
Took me 5 minutes to look up the LLC, find his name, find him on the FAA Airmen database (He's instrument rated, SEL/SES/MEL), then find his cessna.org, flying club, and linked in profiles.

Easy work :cool:
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When you register an aircraft owned by an LLC, you have to tell the FAA who all the owners of the LLC are. You could make it more complicated by having the LLC owned by a corp., but it wouldn't take long to get to the humans controlling the company.
 
His most recent flight appears to have been a filed IFR plan and his route looks like it was done by all the numbers.

But he goes through the Las Vegas airspace more than once and was also under the MSP Bravo earlier so its pretty hard to think he confused Las Vegas with Class Charlie.
 
MacFly said:
Generally speaking, it's unusual that a cognizant and knowledgeable pilot would accidentally land on an occupied taxiway at a major airport. At least around here. Maybe things are different in California.
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Have you ever actually landed at SNA?
 
Salty said:
The only reason you even know those things happened is because of who it was. Anybody else and it would’ve never made the news. If you say you’ve never made similar mistakes; mistakes that could endanger others if the circumstances were different, I’ll call you a liar and not feel bad about it.

I have no idea if he’s capable of flying or not, but I know it’s not my job to decide, especially without even meeting the guy. He may very well be past the point he should be operating in complicated airspace like that. But those situations could happen to any of us. Anyone that thinks they couldn’t is lying to us and or themselves.
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You've landed on a taxiway at a major airport while a 737 was taxiing on it? I mean, it's OK if you have....nothing to be embarrassed about...apparently it's a very common event and entirely excusable.
 
MacFly said:
You've landed on a taxiway at a major airport while a 737 was taxiing on it? I mean, it's OK if you have....nothing to be embarrassed about...apparently it's a very common event and entirely excusable.
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You wouldn’t have to ask the question if you read my post.
 
Sorry but Centurion guy loses this when he is told to get out of the Bravo and then has 5 year old "NO, YES" hissy fit with the controller and does not exit the Bravo. Harrison may be too old to fly, or not, but there is no comparison between the two pilots. If it had been a non-COVID environment, he would have been a major mid-air risk. As it was the controller had to warn a passenger jet that this jerk was in the airspace without a clearance.

BTW on the lighter side, every time I hear Centurion, I think of Life of Brian by Monty Python.
 
Hang 4 said:
Sorry but Centurion guy loses this when he is told to get out of the Bravo and then has 5 year old "NO, YES" hissy fit with the controller and does not exit the Bravo. Harrison may be too old to fly, or not, but there is no comparison between the two pilots. If it had been a non-COVID environment, he would have been a major mid-air risk. As it was the controller had to warn a passenger jet that this jerk was in the airspace without a clearance.

BTW on the lighter side, every time I hear Centurion, I think of Life of Brian by Monty Python.
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Well at least he didn't give the controller a lecture on Latin grammar!
 
Hang 4 said:
Sorry but Centurion guy loses this when he is told to get out of the Bravo and then has 5 year old "NO, YES" hissy fit with the controller and does not exit the Bravo.
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Yeah.. that what kills me. If he's used to flying IFR.. or getting clearances, or the implicit 2-way comm clearance you get in C and D.. fine. But the whiny "Noooo" is dumb, that right there is the cause for why the FAA needs to nail this guy. PIC has sole authority over aircraft, but in general we do what ATC asks unless we can't for safety issues. This guy was just being a raging DICK
 
Tantalum said:
Yeah.. that what kills me. If he's used to flying IFR.. or getting clearances, or the implicit 2-way comm clearance you get in C and D.. fine. But the whiny "Noooo" is dumb, that right there is the cause for why the FAA needs to nail this guy. PIC has sole authority over aircraft, but in general we do what ATC asks unless we can't for safety issues. This guy was just being a raging DICK
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You have to watch out for the D, you don't get an implicit clearance through D, you need to ask for it. Around here there is a letter of agreement with Boston approach for a couple Ds, where ATC controls above 2,500 feet. But if ATC isn't paying attention and you aren't either and you bust D, it's your fault.
 
PaulS said:
You have to watch out for the D, you don't get an implicit clearance through D, you need to ask for it. Around here there is a letter of agreement with Boston approach for a couple Ds, where ATC controls above 2,500 feet. But if ATC isn't paying attention and you aren't either and you bust D, it's your fault.
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I'm hoping you just typed the wrong letter a bunch of times, otherwise this makes no sense.
 
Salty said:
I'm hoping you just typed the wrong letter a bunch of times, otherwise this makes no sense.
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Atc does not control Delta airspace when you are on VFR flight following, that's my understanding. They will sometimes call the tower and arrange your passage, but, sometimes they are busy. You need to climb or ask the tower yourself. Again, I'm doubting myself, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Charlie you just need to be talking to ATC.
 
Salty said:
I'm hoping you just typed the wrong letter a bunch of times, otherwise this makes no sense.
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Nope. BOS App has the class D airspeed above 2500' for the airports under the BOS Class Bravo. (actually, I don't remember if it's 2500' MSL and above or above 2500')

For example, if you want to transit KBED at 2600', the tower will tell you to contact Boston Approach.
 
.. I can't remember if it was here or somewhere else maybe Reddit where someone claimed he was in the right for entering a class Delta even after the tower denied him entry due to the pattern being full. His logic was that strictly per the rules he established two way communication so didn't break anything

Some people are hopelessly dense
 
Gotcha
 
Tantalum said:
.. I can't remember if it was here or somewhere else maybe Reddit where someone claimed he was in the right for entering a class Delta even after the tower denied him entry due to the pattern being full. His logic was that strictly per the rules he established two way communication so didn't break anything

Some people are hopelessly dense
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Not sure - he might have been legally right, but could easily have been legally dead, too. No law or regulation works without at least assuming at least a little common sense from people.
 
Tantalum said:
.. I can't remember if it was here or somewhere else maybe Reddit where someone claimed he was in the right for entering a class Delta even after the tower denied him entry due to the pattern being full. His logic was that strictly per the rules he established two way communication so didn't break anything

Some people are hopelessly dense
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Don't remember seeing that here so must have been reddit. I don't read the flying related stuff on reddit (anymore). But I'll leave this here:

91.123 (b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
 
dmspilot said:
...

91.123 (b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
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that would seem to be the trump card, wouldn't it?
 
dmspilot said:
Don't remember seeing that here so must have been reddit. I don't read the flying related stuff on reddit (anymore). But I'll leave this here:

91.123 (b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
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You left out the next paragraph:

(c) Paragraph (b) does not apply to Cessna Centurions in the KLAS Class B Airspace.
 
Larry in TN said:
You left out the next paragraph:

(c) Paragraph (b) does not apply to Cessna Centurions(1) in the KLAS Class B Airspace.
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You left out the footnote "(1) if being piloted by a Nimtz Class Douche Canoe". (stolen from someone here or on another forum, world class put down)
 
MacFly said:
Yeah, I really think that senility and inability to follow ATC instructions in complicated airspace, with a history of multiple incidents, is "vastly more dangerous to the flying public" than some guy, as far as you know, who ONCE busted Bravo airspace and happened to be a dick to ATC on the radio. I'm pretty amazed that YOUR outlook is such that you don't see it that way. I'll rethink it if and when you can demonstrate that W-A LLC has a history with FSDO and THEN might be able to equate the two.
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Did Han Solo steal your girlfriend?
 
@onwards - You should add a poll to this thread:

Who is worse?
Bravo Buster
Harrison Ford
 
iamtheari said:
it seems incredible that someone holding a commercial pilot license with ASEL, ASES, AMEL, and instrument ratings, apparently based at KTOA in some of the most complicated airspace in the country including plenty of Bravo, could manage to escape the knowledge that a specific clearance is required to enter Bravo airspace.
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It does seem quite odd, his responses. One has to wonder if something else was going on. No excuse, but I wonder if there is more to the story.
 
PaulS said:
Atc does not control Delta airspace when you are on VFR flight following, that's my understanding. They will sometimes call the tower and arrange your passage, but, sometimes they are busy. You need to climb or ask the tower yourself. Again, I'm doubting myself, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Charlie you just need to be talking to ATC.
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They don't "control" it per se, but they are supposed to call the tower and arrange your transit for you.

Bob Noel said:
Nope. BOS App has the class D airspeed above 2500' for the airports under the BOS Class Bravo. (actually, I don't remember if it's 2500' MSL and above or above 2500')

For example, if you want to transit KBED at 2600', the tower will tell you to contact Boston Approach.
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That's unusual though, and it's noted very clearly on the chart. And while Boston Approach may be the facility you need to contact, you do NOT need a clearance to enter the Delta anyway. Two way communication with Boston Approach would be sufficient. There's no "Cleared into class Delta".
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's unusual though, and it's noted very clearly on the chart.
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there's more than one Delta where Delta airspace above a certain altitude is controlled by TRACON for the purpose of transit through under a Letter of Agreement, without being noted on the chart. I suspect that the reason for the note in the ATC handbook - they know and we don't.
 
It seems to me the people on this forum just get stupider and more argumentative as time goes by. There was a time when this forum was a great source for information and respectful discussion. Those days are long gone... along with some of the most knowledgeable members.
 
Lndwarrior said:
It seems to me the people on this forum just get stupider and more argumentative as time goes by. There was a time when this forum was a great source for information and respectful discussion. Those days are long gone... along with some of the most knowledgeable members.
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We’ve gained ALOT of keyboard warriors in the past few years.
 
Hacker said:
That's not at all what I asked. Have you ever landed at SNA? How about ORD?
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I was thinking about this. "He without sin" notwithstanding, if I ever stupidly land on a taxiway by accident, I don't want someone quoting me with a screenshot.

A compliance attitude is what matters. Heck, maybe even embracing learning opportunities. If you prove you can learn and grow, we should support you, even if you messed up.
 
Hacker said:
That's not at all what I asked. Have you ever landed at SNA? How about ORD?
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Landing at ORD was eye opening. I was following the ILS, but was convinced I was doing something wrong... the taxiway looked far more like a runway than the actual runway. I was probably 300 AGL before I was certain which was which.

Add a little confirmation bias and aging eyesight....I can see how it could happen, although the 737 admittedly should've been a clue to at least go around....
 
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