B17 crash at Dallas.

Tools said:
I doubt the pilot of the P-63 saw the B-17 by even this point, within the wingspan.

If option 3 above is determined, this will get even uglier, but unlikely to be the case.

This crash was inevitable at at least a half mile or more. THAT is the danger of speed and performance.

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That’s what I think. He was more than likely looking through the top of the canopy pulling through the turn, and not in front of him. Just a freak accident
 
Dan Ragan, one of the crewmembers of the B-17, was a veteran who had served in the same unit as Texas Raiders was assigned to in the military. That morning he gave a fantastic talk on the plane with the airshow announcer. I have a video of the whole thing and my kids and I spoke with him again after he talked and took some photos. Here's a screen grab from the video. These guys were good men who were there to share.

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We all want to know what happened, but please, from the heart, let's all focus on the good for a bit here. This is why I do not, and if they resume, will not, avoid airshows. The people lost are a tragedy, but they were, and are, also a treasure.
 
I don't intend to widen an already existing emotional wound, but can you give us a link to the video?

I firmly believe that airshow events will continue ... but with some changes.
 
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Auburn2002 said:
I interpreted your earlier comment as you personally took a video of this interview. I presumed that was what grog was requesting, if you were willing to share it.
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Oh, my bad. Ugh. I'm still sorting through a TON of stuff, photos, video, and propriety. I hope to get to that edit soon.
 
Lowflynjack said:
The P-63 is also a very fast plane and no matter what the results of the investigation, things went wrong in a hurry.
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And the F model is even faster than the earlier P-63s. I think it has 400-500 more HP.
 
This was sent to me and I wanted to share it. If you've ever watched a friend lose their life, you'll understand the emptiness he feels and how helpless that feeling is.

From Ryszard Zadow:

Unimaginable

I was sitting on the left wing of the T-6, shielded from the cold north wind by the Texans fuselage. The sun warmed one side of me but the rest of my body that was in contact with the aluminum of the airplane was cold. All I could do was sit there. At times my hands would cover my face in a subconscious attempt to shut off the world around me. In front of me was a B-29, idling in the hold short for runway 31 at Dallas Executive airport. Off in the distance I could see other airshow aircraft orbiting at their hold points. The rumble of the B-29s four enormous engines blocked out every other noise except.....the sirens. Across the runway was a scene my heart wanted so bad to deny existed. Under the column of smoke, the fire, the deluge of airport fire engines water cannons and foam were friends. To the left of the horrific scene was a tail section of a B-17. Somewhere in between was the remains of a P-63 fighter...and its pilot, another friend. How all this happened is still something my mind is trying to comprehend.

Three quarters of my life I’ve been flying airplanes for a living and for fun. In that time period I’ve lost too many friends this way. There’s an old saying about how one day a Pilot walks out to their airplane either knowing it will be their last flight, or not knowing it. The inference being made is do you make that choice or will that choice be made for you. I can’t imagine myself ever deciding to end my flying, but who wants to think that one day it will happen some other way. Who could imagine anything like this? Unimaginable. Yet on a bright, sunny, cool, crisp fall day in Dallas, Texas, while, all was going so well, the unimaginable happened and these Pilots and crew members flew their last flight. Right in front of me.

There’s another aviation saying that there are old Pilots and bold Pilots, but no old, bold Pilots. These weren’t bold Pilots. These were some of the most skilled Pilots Ive ever known. You don’t get to fly these national treasures if you’re not extremely skilled and trusted. Airshow flying may seem bold, but it’s not. It takes tremendous discipline and coordination by an extensive TEAM of people to execute everything safely and the number one concern is always safety. Taking any flying machine into the sky is dangerous and risky. Doing that in front of a vast crowd of spectators adds a level of caution the public never sees. Everything is done to protect anyone from being at risk, but there is nothing that can be done to eliminate all risk for those that fly and those ground crews on the other side of the crowd line. You can minimize risk, but you can’t eliminate it.

The B-29 finally turned around and taxied back to its parking place. The sky emptied of the other airshow aircraft that were holding as they diverted to nearby airports. For a long time all that could be heard were more sirens coming from a distance and vehicles coming and going from across the runway. Occasionally someone would walk up by my T-6 to get a closer look, then drift away. I just sat there. Eventually, the fire trucks had done all they could do. One by one the ambulances silently went away. There were still wisps of smoke drifting from what was left. There was an uncomfortable silence over the airport. I felt totally useless, unable to contribute anything to the world around me. I slid off the wing, stood in front of the T-6 and just stared across the runway. I couldn’t think of any other purpose for my existence at that moment, so I dropped down to a knee and prayed.
 
[


Heartbreaking to read. Never had the privilege to know or meet them. So sorry for everyone who knew these gentlemen. RIP
 
Piperonca said:
Anyone know what that 'X' on the cowling meant?
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In general it used to mean it was assigned to flight test. I don't know the specifics of this airplane and whether it actually was or not.

Nauga,
whose spot is marked
 
Makes sense, thanks. All I could think of was closed runway. You can land there, but at risk.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Yep, that was probably what did them in... an X on the fuselage. The flight was doomed before he even took off.
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The flight may have been doomed if the pilot was having a subtle or intermittent health issue that made him not 100%. I know of a 747 captain that died at the controls. My immediate thought on seeing the video was pilot incapacitation at a particularly bad moment. No connection to paint on the aircraft but I apologize sincerely for any inference.
 
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Lowflynjack said:
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Terry Barker has been a friend for almost 25 years. Just saw him the other day when I was training in my new plane, we stopped by his hangar. You see, my CFI had know him her whole life. Her dad was Terry's best friend and also a fellow 777 pilot for AA before they both retired. It's how I picked her from the many that reached out to sign me off in the Columbia. That day he made me promise to bring the plane over in the near future so he could go with me to lunch in it. He was just so tickled pink that I had purchased it. During my 20 year struggle to find the time to get my PPL done, he was always there to pat me on the back or kick me in the rear.

My CFI texted Saturday soon after the disaster happened. I've been in a kind of shock since. I refuse to watch the video or play the blame game. My wife is a nervous flyer, and we had flown down to Fredericksburg for the weekend. When I told her she had to go throw up. All she could think about was Karen, his wife of 40 some years.

His boys played high school baseball with my son. His youngest played baseball at UH where my son was attending after giving up baseball. Terry would go down and watch Caleb play and sit in the stands with my son, and often take my son to dinner after the game

He would always call to give me an update on how Nicholas was doing. Terry was just that way.

He was a great guy, loved by all. My heart breaks for his wife Karen. He was recently a grandfather, and his oldest Nathan and family lived there in the property with him. When he talked about his family he always had a huge smile on his face.

Keller, the city where we live and he and I both served on City Council will honor him with a candlelight vigil Thursday at 6pm at City Hall.

Blue skies and tailwinds Captain Barker.
 
cowtowner said:
Terry Barker has been a friend for almost 25 years. Just saw him the other day when I was training in my new plane, we stopped by his hangar. You see, my CFI had know him her whole life. Her dad was Terry's best friend and also a fellow 777 pilot for AA before they both retired. It's how I picked her from the many that reached out to sign me off in the Columbia. That day he made me promise to bring the plane over in the near future so he could go with me to lunch in it. He was just so tickled pink that I had purchased it. During my 20 year struggle to find the time to get my PPL done, he was always there to pat me on the back or kick me in the rear.

My CFI texted Saturday soon after the disaster happened. I've been in a kind of shock since. I refuse to watch the video or play the blame game. My wife is a nervous flyer, and we had flown down to Fredericksburg for the weekend. When I told her she had to go throw up. All she could think about was Karen, his wife of 40 some years.

His boys played high school baseball with my son. His youngest played baseball at UH where my son was attending after giving up baseball. Terry would go down and watch Caleb play and sit in the stands with my son, and often take my son to dinner after the game

He would always call to give me an update on how Nicholas was doing. Terry was just that way.

He was a great guy, loved by all. My heart breaks for his wife Karen. He was recently a grandfather, and his oldest Nathan and family lived there in the property with him. When he talked about his family he always had a huge smile on his face.

Keller, the city where we live and he and I both served on City Council will honor him with a candlelight vigil Thursday at 6pm at City Hall.

Blue skies and tailwinds Captain Barker.
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My condolences to you and your family. Thank you for sharing the man I would have been honored to know.
 
cowtowner said:
Terry Barker has been a friend for almost 25 years. Just saw him the other day when I was training in my new plane, we stopped by his hangar. You see, my CFI had know him her whole life. Her dad was Terry's best friend and also a fellow 777 pilot for AA before they both retired. It's how I picked her from the many that reached out to sign me off in the Columbia. That day he made me promise to bring the plane over in the near future so he could go with me to lunch in it. He was just so tickled pink that I had purchased it. During my 20 year struggle to find the time to get my PPL done, he was always there to pat me on the back or kick me in the rear.

My CFI texted Saturday soon after the disaster happened. I've been in a kind of shock since. I refuse to watch the video or play the blame game. My wife is a nervous flyer, and we had flown down to Fredericksburg for the weekend. When I told her she had to go throw up. All she could think about was Karen, his wife of 40 some years.

His boys played high school baseball with my son. His youngest played baseball at UH where my son was attending after giving up baseball. Terry would go down and watch Caleb play and sit in the stands with my son, and often take my son to dinner after the game

He would always call to give me an update on how Nicholas was doing. Terry was just that way.

He was a great guy, loved by all. My heart breaks for his wife Karen. He was recently a grandfather, and his oldest Nathan and family lived there in the property with him. When he talked about his family he always had a huge smile on his face.

Keller, the city where we live and he and I both served on City Council will honor him with a candlelight vigil Thursday at 6pm at City Hall.

Blue skies and tailwinds Captain Barker.
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Thanks for sharing this. Sorry to hear about your loss.
 
cowtowner said:
Terry Barker has been a friend for almost 25 years. Just saw him the other day when I was training in my new plane, we stopped by his hangar. You see, my CFI had know him her whole life. Her dad was Terry's best friend and also a fellow 777 pilot for AA before they both retired. It's how I picked her from the many that reached out to sign me off in the Columbia. That day he made me promise to bring the plane over in the near future so he could go with me to lunch in it. He was just so tickled pink that I had purchased it. During my 20 year struggle to find the time to get my PPL done, he was always there to pat me on the back or kick me in the rear.

My CFI texted Saturday soon after the disaster happened. I've been in a kind of shock since. I refuse to watch the video or play the blame game. My wife is a nervous flyer, and we had flown down to Fredericksburg for the weekend. When I told her she had to go throw up. All she could think about was Karen, his wife of 40 some years.

His boys played high school baseball with my son. His youngest played baseball at UH where my son was attending after giving up baseball. Terry would go down and watch Caleb play and sit in the stands with my son, and often take my son to dinner after the game

He would always call to give me an update on how Nicholas was doing. Terry was just that way.

He was a great guy, loved by all. My heart breaks for his wife Karen. He was recently a grandfather, and his oldest Nathan and family lived there in the property with him. When he talked about his family he always had a huge smile on his face.

Keller, the city where we live and he and I both served on City Council will honor him with a candlelight vigil Thursday at 6pm at City Hall.

Blue skies and tailwinds Captain Barker.
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Very sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing this.
 
FPK1 said:
Good video that may explain why it happened...


Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
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Juan mentions the colors involved. Here's the B-24 against the backdrop in nearly that same location from a few weeks back... on final for 31 at Dallas Executive. Even if the cockpit visibility wasn't an issue, we know the issues of an aircraft on a collision course having no relative motion, only getting bigger and if your focus is on the lead and crowd line, a camouflaged aircraft against this backdrop is probably going to be difficult to notice.

RED_2794.JPG
 
To the post above: The B17 was at the same altitude as the P63, so it would be against the sky, if the nose, belly and wing weren't blocking the plane. Given that the bank angle never changed, a good chance is that the P63 wasn't aware of the B17 up to the point of impact.

It makes a point about the P63 being told to "take the lead." I'm not so sure about that on further review. If it was a call to the P63, then the AirBoss has to explain why the decision was made and given how tight the patterns were, why it was made. Or why the last plane in the flight of three fighters in trail is told to take the lead- and given the fighters were a flight I have to assume that the lead was for the flight of three, not the bombers. That's a mistake that Dan makes here. Then you have to figure out what was briefed - how they were to do a change in formation with the narrow flight paths along show center. I would think a call to take the lead would be given on the return leg, not the show pass. I'm not sure at all about a call to "take the lead". So I'm still thinking for the P63- a wide turn due to some distraction or momentary loss of awareness and then trying to keep up with the other Mustangs who were in trail, eyes forward to form up with the Mustangs. The ADS-B traces don't have much room to change things up. In this case, the video from underneath with the Mustangs passing has more information than the ADS-B. Video clearly shows a P63 on a different flight path than the two Mustangs from the apex of the turn outward. RedWingAerials' photo also deserves a look at the relationship of the bank angles between the Mustang and the P63, the pitch between nose and tail of the bombers as well as their relative altitudes. Flying RC also as a hobby, you learn to see these things in sharp focus.

The dumb bell patterns are just plain dangerous here, instead of race track ovals. Oshkosh does a great job of filling up the air, but at different altitudes and keeping horizontal spacing according to speeds. If you see their show, you may not notice the safety designed into it. I'm sure that this will be the last time CAF does this design for their show. Agree that regardless of the last five seconds here, the die was cast in the design of the show.
 
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skyking3286 said:
To the post above: The B17 was at the same altitude as the P63, so it would be against the sky, if the nose, belly and wing weren't blocking the plane. Given that the bank angle never changed, a good chance is that the P63 wasn't aware of the B17 up to the point of impact.
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About that - it was my observation that the aircraft were possibly climbing a bit as they left show center, and then descending back down, almost as if some of the pilots were trying to pick up a bit of altitude for safety reasons as they got farther away from the crowd and the runways. In fact I distinctly believe I saw that and I think the Kingcobra was also in a bit of a descent as well, even if slight. I think in my last shot before the incident, here, Yellow Rose and Devil Dog were likely at least a hundred or two hundred feet higher than they would have been by the time they arrived on the line.

DSC01082-2.JPG
 
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skyking3286 said:
To the post above: The B17 was at the same altitude as the P63, so it would be against the sky, if the nose, belly and wing weren't blocking the plane. Given that the bank angle never changed, a good chance is that the P63 wasn't aware of the B17 up to the point of impact. ... Oshkosh does a great job of filling up the air, but at different altitudes and keeping horizontal spacing according to speeds. If you see their show, you may not notice the safety designed into it. I'm sure that this will be the last time CAF does this design for their show.
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The insurance claim on this could possibly preclude most if not all future events. Bob Hoover quite doing airshows for that reason (after he got his medical back.)
 
flyingron said:
I think there were two built, but the other was long gone.
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Yes, you are correct. CAF’s “F” was the lone survivor of only 2 produced, until its unfortunate crash. The only “One Off” version was a “D” model, with a bubble canopy like the P-51. Sadly, it too is long gone.
 
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I just watched Juan Browne's analysis on his YouTube channel and have totally changed my opinion on the collision. Stellar analysis. When I first watched the Twitter videos, I came away with the opinion that it whas the fault of the P63. Now I believe it was poor advance planning that happened before they ever took off. Due to the low alititude and crowd line (min distance to the viewing stands), going under and to the outside was not possible (aka a "knock it off"). Worse, given that option was not possible, the organizers did not leave enough room vertically as well. It does not look like the fighters had their own reference line (no go) that would definitively prevented a collision and worse, there was no "hard deck" alt for the fighters. If they did have a hard line AND a hard deck (double safetys), it wouldn't have mattered if the P63 lost sight. The P63 would have been safely above (worst case) and to the left (if he followed the hard line). It would have been its own sort of virtual ILS to keep him in the neighborhood of his approved route and his fellow fighters. One other note... Due his restricted forward visibility, after losing sight of his fellow fighters, he seemed to fall behind. It appears he realized he had fallen behind and hit the gas to catch up, which had the unfortunate effect of increasing his turning radius. Very tragic and avoidable. But then again, they all consented to it by accepting these operating parameters. So you can't exclusively blame the planner. Please don't flame me for having an opinion. Isn't that the point of the forum?
 
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FPK1 said:
Good video that may explain why it happened...


Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
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Based on that video, I retract several things I posted.

I do question the design of the show pattern where they have aircraft of different speeds on the SAME ground track and at the SAME altitude.

So the P-63 did not cross a boundary, as his desired flight path was the same as the bomber. So, he was effectively rejoining, without realizing it was occuring.

Stepping up the fighters to 800 feet would have likely avoided this.
 
JoeInCT said:
I just watched Juan Browne's analysis on his YouTube channel and have totally changed my opinion on the collision. Stellar analysis. When I first watched the Twitter videos, I came away with the opinion that it whas the fault of the P63. Now I believe it was poor advance planning that happened before they ever took off. Due to the low alititude and crowd line (min distance to the viewing stands), going under and to the outside was not possible (aka a "knock it off"). Worse, given that option was not possible, the organizers did not leave enough room vertically as well. It does not look like the fighters had their own reference line (no go) that would definitively prevented a collision and worse, there was no "hard deck" alt for the fighters. If they did have a hard line AND a hard deck (double safetys), it wouldn't have mattered if the P63 lost sight. The P63 would have been safely above (worst case) and to the left (if he followed the hard line). It would have been its own sort of virtual ILS to keep him in the neighborhood of his approved route and his fellow fighters. One other note... Due his restricted forward visibility, after losing sight of his fellow fighters, he seemed to fall behind. It appears he realized he had fallen behind and hit the gas to catch up, which had the unfortunate effect of increasing his turning radius. Very tragic and avoidable. But then again, they all consented to it by accepting these operating parameters. So you can't exclusively blame the planner. Please don't flame me for having an opinion. Isn't that the point of the forum?
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AGREED.
 
Well, yuck. The least likely scenario I thought would be that they were both eligible to be there, but that may well be true. This does not fare well for the greatest number of folks, in all sorts of venues. Neither here nor there for the moment.

The P-63 unfortunately still was the last chance to break this chain. This sort of scenario is along the lines of a “off target rendezvous” from a bombing pattern, BY FAR about the most dangerous thing we taught! All sorts of mayhem. In all the P-63 pilot’s VAST experience I don’t know if he had training in this regard, and squarely puts this in the you don’t know what you don’t know arena, which points to systemic qualifications training and vetting issues.

His last chance to break the chain was 1/2 to 1 mile prior to the collision, very difficult for sure.
 
Tools said:
His last chance to break the chain was 1/2 to 1 mile prior to the collision
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…whilst in trail, increasing speed, and in a descending, tightening turn that was to roll out on the line and altitude of the bombers.
 
Lowflynjack said:
This was sent to me and I wanted to share it. If you've ever watched a friend lose their life, you'll understand the emptiness he feels and how helpless that feeling is.

From Ryszard Zadow:

Unimaginable

I was sitting on the left wing of the T-6, shielded from the cold north wind by the Texans fuselage. The sun warmed one side of me but the rest of my body that was in contact with the aluminum of the airplane was cold. All I could do was sit there. At times my hands would cover my face in a subconscious attempt to shut off the world around me. In front of me was a B-29, idling in the hold short for runway 31 at Dallas Executive airport. Off in the distance I could see other airshow aircraft orbiting at their hold points. The rumble of the B-29s four enormous engines blocked out every other noise except.....the sirens. Across the runway was a scene my heart wanted so bad to deny existed. Under the column of smoke, the fire, the deluge of airport fire engines water cannons and foam were friends. To the left of the horrific scene was a tail section of a B-17. Somewhere in between was the remains of a P-63 fighter...and its pilot, another friend. How all this happened is still something my mind is trying to comprehend.
<snip>
There was an uncomfortable silence over the airport. I felt totally useless, unable to contribute anything to the world around me. I slid off the wing, stood in front of the T-6 and just stared across the runway. I couldn’t think of any other purpose for my existence at that moment, so I dropped down to a knee and prayed.
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Damn, I didn’t realize Ryszard had such a way with words… and everything he said, ditto for me.

I had a front row seat to this event; I was flying the Helldiver as the #3 bomber in trail right behind the B-24. I didn’t see the Cobra approach or impact, but out my windshield I saw the B-17 break up and go in… and it was a knife thru my heart to see 5 of my friends gone in a flash. I didn’t learn about the collision and 6th fatality until after landing at the alternate. I’ve been a pilot on Texas Raiders since 2014; all six of these guys were my friends, my CAF air show and ride tour homies…

Saturday evening I met up with Ryszard at a pub and we downed a few hoppy pops. I know that “tears in my beer” is a bit of a cliché, but, we did that anyway.
 
jbDC9 said:
Damn, I didn’t realize Ryszard had such a way with words… and everything he said, ditto for me.

I had a front row seat to this event; I was flying the Helldiver as the #3 bomber in trail right behind the B-24. I didn’t see the Cobra approach or impact, but out my windshield I saw the B-17 break up and go in… and it was a knife thru my heart to see 5 of my friends gone in a flash. I didn’t learn about the collision and 6th fatality until after landing at the alternate. I’ve been a pilot on Texas Raiders since 2014; all six of these guys were my friends, my CAF air show and ride tour homies…

Saturday evening I met up with Ryszard at a pub and we downed a few hoppy pops. I know that “tears in my beer” is a bit of a cliché, but, we did that anyway.
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Heck of thing to have to witness. My condolences to you and the rest of the CAF team, it's got to be about the most sobering thing that can happen at these events.
 
skyking3286 said:
The dumb bell patterns are just plain dangerous here, instead of race track ovals. Oshkosh does a great job of filling up the air, but at different altitudes and keeping horizontal spacing according to speeds. If you see their show, you may not notice the safety designed into it. I'm sure that this will be the last time CAF does this design for their show.
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I really can't wrap my mind around this back and forth pattern with fighters turning inside of bombers while also trying to follow other fighters, and then occupying the same flight path on the show passes. It's just one of those things that is so clearly bad in hindsight, but for reasons I cannot come up with must not have seemed bad at the time.
 
Here's a video showing the intended flight path of the three fighters (lead P-51 appears for split second at 0:05) that started out with safe horizontal separation from bomber path until crossover mishap. Possible target fixation which was a term coined in WW2 pilot training?

(sorry in advance, noobs can't post links)
twitter dot com / DavidSFOX4 / status / 1591522623376211968
 
JoeInCT said:
I just watched Juan Browne's analysis on his YouTube channel and have totally changed my opinion on the collision. Stellar analysis.
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it’s informative, yes, but I find it distasteful that he runs ads, lots of them, in that video. Profiteering from a recent disaster - not cool IMO.
 
The only ads I noticed were in the tools he was using. So he wouldn't be profiting. But I tune out most ads, so maybe there were some I didn't notice.
 
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