RyanShort1
Final Approach
It sucks when it's people you know, even if they were just acquaintances.
It sucks when it's people you know, even if they were just acquaintances.
I’m terribly sorry man!It sucks when it's people you know, even if they were just acquaintances.
I don't think there's anything the airboss could have done about it. I was literally yards from the airboss to the north. It happened so fast, it was ridiculous, and I doubt a radio call would have made literally any difference.It will be interesting to hear from the airboss on this one. What was supposed to be happening here?
If he did see the B-17, the way to recover from this is to roll out and pass behind and underneath the bomber. Increasing the bank and pulling it the absolute worst thing to do, as it makes the geometry worse since you’re now keeping your turn circle inside the other plane’s.
I think there were two built, but the other was long gone.It appears the P-63, owned by the Dallas CAF, was a one off, only “P63F” model produced.
If you've never flown formation, please be quiet, read and learn.
Lets back off of that a bit. Yes, it wasn't a formation, but it was two strings. A bomber string and a fighter string, intended to keep the airplanes in front of the crowd a bit longer, and they weren't even flying that tight to the crowd, just a lazy racetrack. Something went wrong, terribly wrong and that will have to be figured out, but this almost certainly was something going "not as briefed."I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
My formation comment was related to that poster's question. He claims to have done lots of formation, but didn't understand how the P-63 pilot would not have noticed the B-17.I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
Not having been there as you were, that is the part that is boggling my mind. The idea of 'lazy racetrack' patterns with dissimilar aircraft. I'm sure that will be a key focal point for the NTSB to go back to the prebrief and attempt to ascertain what was supposed to happen. From the outside, it looks like a poor plan that left no room for much error in execution which is very different from the airshow prebriefs I've been a part of.A bomber string and a fighter string, intended to keep the airplanes in front of the crowd a bit longer, and they weren't even flying that tight to the crowd, just a lazy racetrack.
I know nothing about airshow protocols, but shouldn't slower aircraft be on the inside of turns? The quicker fighters with a wider turn radius and bubble canopies staying on the outside?
I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
Hmmmm, maybe a single ground reference is a big mistake.This is not what happened here.
Fighters and bombers were to the left and right (respectively) of some prominent ground reference (runway or similar). P-63 crossed over.
That’s a gross oversimplification.Hmmmm, maybe a single ground reference is a big mistake.
"Crossed over" what?This is not what happened here.
Fighters and bombers were to the left and right (respectively) of some prominent ground reference (runway or similar). P-63 crossed over.
The whole business of airshows these days is the *simulation* of danger. Just making individual flybys doesn't cut it anymore. Soon there's a flash of explosions on the ground simulating a bomb drop, soon they have fighters "escorting" the bombers, soon they want "bad guys" attacking and getting chased off by the escorts. Eventually, they develop systems to make it look like the flight patterns are random like combat while still keeping them on known, safe, tracks. But...just takes one person dropping the bubble.I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
TETO and all that jazz.
My bad, To Each Their Own.TETO?
There's a front angle video...it looks very clear in this video that the P-63 should have easily been able to see the B-17...not saying its definitive, but certainly looks like the P-63 would have had that B-17 filling its windscreen.
I'm not sure this will post/play, as it is Fecesbook:
I’m guessing it wasn’t actually as close as the angle of the video makes it look, but yes, it could’ve been even worse for those on the ground.Did anybody else notice the biplane on the ground just barely ahead of where the main wreckage came down? The flames could have easily made three planes involved in that incident.
Agreed, this was not formation. But no, it was organized.
The patterns are defined to keep planes away from each other. The patterns are briefed to the pilots. And if everyone follows the setup, things go well.
There have been some issues at some shows where not all the pilots attended the briefing, but were allowed to fly.
That’s a gross oversimplification.
Tora went fine including the route flown by the Tora defender who was also the P-63 pilot. There is literally no way he wasn’t familiar with the ground lines.
It was like a AIM-120 locked on target. Unbelievable.
Pretty much. There’s a level of risk in air show events that’s just unavoidable. Multiple airplanes maneuvering at low altitudes in a tightly confined ring leaves little room for error between parties.If just a goof, how are the Feds gonna make that kind of goof unlikely in the future, which is likely only abstinence.