B17 crash at Dallas.

Joepilotmsp said:
Watched the clip that was linked to twiter, (spelling error intensional). After the shock of seeing the video, I looked at a few comments forgetting I wasn’t on POA. The speculation, innuendo, and just moronic conspiracy theories got my blood pressure well beyond the red arc. How could pilots say this stuff. When I went to post and was asked to log in I realized I wasn’t in Kansas anymore but the hellish twit zone. Reinforced why I will never be on any of those social media sites. Thanks for letting me vent. Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.
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Indeed. Stumbled upon similar bull excrement on another social media outlet. I will never fault someone for lacking education on a particular issue (I’m certainly ignorant of numerous things around me), but I can and will criticize a person when they are ignorant and choose to state “what happened” based on their nonsensical conjecture. Unfortunately, everyone is an expert on everything in social media land.
 
Pinecone said:
That is the point. They both ended up on the same side.

There is video out that starts earlier and shows to other fighters come through well to the left of where the B-17 was and the P-63 ended up
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Then the P-63 did NOT "cross over"? The B-17 was on the wrong side?
 
dtuuri said:
Then the P-63 did NOT "cross over"? The B-17 was on the wrong side?
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No the other way. He means the P-63 overshot to the right, where the bomber track presumably was stipulated to reside.
 
RyanB said:
Speaking with assumptions - lovely.
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What's your issue? A lot of posters here seem to know a lot about this stuff, so I'm asking. Do they have some other way than a paved runway to offset from?
 
Pinecone said:
There have been some issues at some shows where not all the pilots attended the briefing, but were allowed to fly.
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A LOT of it depends on what kind of flight you are doing. If you are flying wing off of lead, you need to know what time to be at your plane, what time to start engines, frequencies, what altitudes and patterns you are flying, where the knock-it-off is, etc... if you're not briefed by someone who was at the briefing, you are NOT flying.
dtuuri said:
What's your issue? A lot of posters here seem to know a lot about this stuff, so I'm asking. Do they have some other way than a paved runway to offset from?
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Yes.

For instance, during the Tora routine there are at least three lines that the pilots fly. Maybe more. In the shot below you can see the tail chase Zero and "Hawk" up close, the "Kate" headed opposite on the other side of the runway, and a "Zero" pulling up on an opposite line. There are often corner points as well and I've seen shows where school busses make good reference points.

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RyanShort1 said:
Yes.

For instance, during the Tora routine there are at least three lines that the pilots fly. Maybe more. In the shot below you can see the tail chase Zero and "Hawk" up close, the "Kate" headed opposite on the other side of the runway, and a "Zero" pulling up on an opposite line.
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Was this picture at the same show, same day? Looking at the airport diagram, I'm wondering how far from the near side of the runway they need to keep the crowd. I can't imagine anything better than a runway for a reference. School buses? No thanks, unless they're bumper to bumper for a mile. Looking closer, it looks to me like the "Zero" and Hawk" are flying the centerline and the other two lines are offset away from the runway on the far side in opposite directions. So, maybe the bomber was supposed to be over the centerline like these two??
 
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eman1200 said:
ok I'm just gonna say overall I find this pretty strange. this is the guy that runs the CAF, correct? he owns the 2 planes involved in the incident? I know if that was me, and people died in my airplanes that presumably I knew or was friends with, there is no way I could give this interview without choking up. I hate to say this guy seemed heartless, but he kind of did. and all that aside, wouldn't an OFFICIAL official be giving this interview, answering these questions? like a local cop/sheriff or something like that? just seemed weird to me, but as I always say, wtf do I know...

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I don’t know this guy from Adam, but I doubt that very many readers here do either. You’re accusations that he has no heart based simply on his demeanor in the interview is completely unfair IMHO. You might be exactly correct, or, you might be as wrong as you can be. EVERYONE reacts and appears differently under such circumstances.

Over six years ago, my dear and precious wife of 42 years died unexpectedly. It absolutely ripped my heart out. I did my tear shedding in private, not in public. A few comments like those you made got back to me. Even though I was completely devastated I managed not to break down in public. People making such judgments are showing their ignorance of human nature. Everyone reacts differently.
 
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Capngrog said:
Years ago (I'm guessin' 1970 or 1971), I was traveling in West Central Mississippi, when I spotted an airport not too far off the main highway. I turned around and found the airport, which, as I recall, was just a grass strip with a few shade hangars on it. Beneath one hangar bay was what I thought was a Bell P-39 Airacobra, so, curiosity piqued, I parked the car to check it out. As I approached the hangar, I noticed an older (I was 25 or 26 at the time) gentleman working around the airplane and engaged him in conversation. He was very friendly and full of information about his airplane. First off, he corrected my assumption that I had been looking at a P-39, but was instead in the presence of a P-63 Kingcobra. He told me all about the airplane, and said that he flew it regularly in Confederate Air Force (CAF) events all over the Southeastern United States. Having to get back on the road, I reluctantly had to cut our conversation short. Oh, by the way, as I recall, the P-63 was totally white in color. Could this have been one of the airplanes involved in yesterday's tragedy? Perhaps, but I guess there's really no way to confirm this.
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To save folks the effort of finding my Post #157, I decided to quote myself to get the personal information into this post.

Here's a link to the history of the P-63 involved in yesterday's crash:

https://airbasegeorgia.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/History-_CAF_P-63A-6_sn-42-68941.pdf

It seems that the airplane I saw back in '70 or '71 was indeed the P-63 King Cobra involved in yesterday's tragic crash. When I saw the airplane, it was owned by Olin C. Crabtree and William R. Rodgers of Rolling Fork, Mississippi. The gentleman I spoke with was apparently William P. Rodgers, who was a CAF member at the time. The nose art on the airplane, "Tumbleweed" also rings a bell in the deep, dark recesses of the remains of my mind.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I don’t know this guy from Adam, but I doubt that very many readers here do ether. You’re accusations that he has no heart based simply on his demeanor in the interview is completely unfair IMHO. You might be exactly correct, or, you might be as wrong as you can be. EVERYONE reacts and appears differently under such circumstances.

Over six years ago, my dear and precious wife of 42 years died unexpectedly. It absolutely ripped my heart out. I did my tear shedding in private, not in public. A few comments like those you made got back to me. Even though I was completely devastated I managed not to break down in public. People making such judgments are showing their ignorance of human nature. Everyone reacts differently.
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Well sorry but you’re wrong. It was neither unfair nor ignorant. It was my observation. If you choose not to agree with it, good for you. But it was strictly my opinion which I am entitled to. So take it or leave it, makes no difference to me whatsoever.
 
eman1200 said:
didn't say he wasn't a good dude. I've seen death before as well, doesn't mean if/when it happens again it won't impact me emotionally. and I can guarantee I wouldn't be doing interviews a couple of hours later. but that's just me.
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…yes, that’s YOU! The CEO, whoever he was, is a different human being with a different demeanor, different emotional makeup and different level of emotional strength. You have absolutely no way of knowing. Some people, even if their guts were torn out, could do that interview in fifteen minutes, while others could NEVER work themselves up to it. You, nor anyone else has the ability to walk in his shoes and know his level of remorse.

PLEASE! Give everyone a rest with your uninformed accusations.
 
eman1200 said:
Well sorry but you’re wrong. It was neither unfair nor ignorant. It was my observation. If you choose not to agree with it, good for you. But it was strictly my opinion which I am entitled to. So take it or leave it, makes no difference to me whatsoever.
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Yes, you have complete right to your opinion, but unless you’re God, you have absolutely no way to know his level of shock or remorse. For all I know you’re right and he’s the most cold hearted person ever born, but the opposite could be true and you have no way of knowing.

Give it a rest!
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes, you have complete right to your opinion, but unless you’re God, you have absolutely no way to know his level of shock or remorse. For all I know you’re right and he’s the most cold hearted person ever born, but the opposite could be true and you have no way of knowing.

Give it a rest!
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no YOU give it a rest, jeezus. it's a fkng OBSERVATION, if you don't like it, I really don't GAF.
 
Capngrog said:
To save folks the effort of finding my Post #157, I decided to quote myself to get the personal information into this post.

Here's a link to the history of the P-63 involved in yesterday's crash:

https://airbasegeorgia.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/History-_CAF_P-63A-6_sn-42-68941.pdf

It seems that the airplane I saw back in '70 or '71 was indeed the P-63 King Cobra involved in yesterday's tragic crash. When I saw the airplane, it was owned by Olin C. Crabtree and William R. Rodgers of Rolling Fork, Mississippi. The gentleman I spoke with was apparently William P. Rodgers, who was a CAF member at the time. The nose art on the airplane, "Tumbleweed" also rings a bell in the deep, dark recesses of the remains of my mind.
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Dixie Wing’s P-63 is not the one involved in the incident yesterday.
 
MBDiagMan said:
…yes, that’s YOU! The CEO, whoever he was, is a different human being with a different demeanor, different emotional makeup and different level of emotional strength.
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Commemorative Air Force CEO Hank Coates served 23 years in the US Navy as an aviator and administrator (retired as CMDR), and his last billet was XO at NAS Meridian. He also served as president of a Florida based ab initio flight school with major airline affiliations for four years.

I suspect Coates has had his share of dealing with aircraft mishaps as second in command of the Naval Air Station that has Training Air Wing One under its command and president of a pilot training operation that had 300 employees.

His demeanor during yesterday's press conference has absolutely nothing to do with the emotions he felt at the time. The man is a seasoned professional aviator and corporate executive, and his years of experience prepared him well for performing his duties in the manner he did yesterday. That being said, there is absolutely no doubt he was experiencing substantial internal grief and sorrow from the loss of those fine aviators and personal friends.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
Bro, they aren't over the centerline, and I'm sick of this thread. I think I'm done.
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Ryan, thanks for trying to make sense of how this works for the uninitiated (me). Hopefully what went wrong can be explained and if there is an intrinsic problem then it gets fixed. Sometimes bad things just happen. What a sad loss of life, RIP to the victims and condolences to their families and friends.
 
eman1200 said:
no YOU give it a rest, jeezus. it's a fkng OBSERVATION, if you don't like it, I really don't GAF.
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So that's the trick. Make a disparaging comment about someone right after suffering a tragic loss but it's okay because all you did was make an "observation".
 
donjohnston said:
So that's the trick. Make a disparaging comment about someone right after suffering a tragic loss but it's okay because all you did was make an "observation".
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uuuh, yup. something just like that.
 
So, three possibilities.

1. P-63 in the wrong place.
2. B-17 in the wrong place.
3. Both planes eligible to be there.

Ultimate culpability lies with last clear chance to avoid.

About that simple. All mishaps are a chain of events. Discovering the real root cause is gonna take some time and clear unbiased thinking. Superficially, it’s pretty simple, but we won’t learn much from it. We will from the root cause.
 
Like @RyanShort1, I think I'm done with this thread. At least until the report comes out in a couple years. Some highly skilled aviators and by all accounts good guys lost their lives in a tragic accident. What caused the accident is speculative at best and in poor taste to the friends and family of those lost. These were guys trying to show everyone a good and paid the ultimate price. My only salvation in this tragedy is they went doing what they love. It's not the time to speculate the cause of to question the future of such operations.

Can we just have a moment of silence?
 
I doubt the pilot of the P-63 saw the B-17 by even this point, within the wingspan.

If option 3 above is determined, this will get even uglier, but unlikely to be the case.

This crash was inevitable at at least a half mile or more. THAT is the danger of speed and performance.

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Racerx said:
Like @RyanShort1, I think I'm done with this thread. ... What caused the accident is speculative at best and in poor taste to the friends and family of those lost.
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Speaking only for myself, I'm not looking backward with "fault" in my heart, but forward to the next air show scheduled where similar procedures could be in effect. The Air Bosses in those might want to consider what type of airplanes should be on the outer track and how they should maneuver to it. Looks to me like these two planes were merging toward their assigned tracks and collided before they got there. Those thoughts shouldn't offend anyone, but this is POA of course.
 
AS aggie06 pointed out, ser. no. 42-68941, a P-63A was not involved in this crash, and I take all responsibility for my erroneous posts indicating that it was; however, I will not remove the posts because one includes a link to an interesting history of P-36A, Ser. No. 42-68941.
 
Capngrog said:
AS aggie06 pointed out, ser. no. 42-68941, a P-63A was not involved in this crash, and I take all responsibility for my erroneous posts indicating that it was; however, I will not remove the posts because one includes a link to an interesting history of P-36A, Ser. No. 42-68941.
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My apologies if I came across rude. The Dixie Wing's P-63A is also a part of history, and it's neat that you were able to see it at a tiny airport years ago.
 
dtuuri said:
Speaking only for myself, I'm not looking backward with "fault" in my heart, but forward to the next air show scheduled where similar procedures could be in effect. The Air Bosses in those might want to consider what type of airplanes should be on the outer track and how they should maneuver to it. Looks to me like these two planes were merging toward their assigned tracks and collided before they got there. Those thoughts shouldn't offend anyone, but this is POA of course.
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I mean, pretty much every air boss IS concerned about those things. That's the whole point of having an airboss and a briefing. That’s like saying an airline might want to have toilets on it’s airliners. It's all freaking about safety, which is why this is actually such a shock. All of those pilots and crewmembers have done multiples of these safety briefings.
The main investigation is going to be to find out where the breakdown(s) occurred as there doesn't seem to be any smoking maintenance gun. Yes, it's way important to find out what happened, but it's also kind of obvious at the same time. What’s not obvious is how it got so upside down so fast. With a significant percentage of the main actors dead especially with the B-17 being bomber flight lead, it's going to take some time to sort out where the accident chain began, and where it could have been prevented. In the meantime, the ill-informed side discussions over show lines, manner of delivery, and the like only give fodder to those who want to see all of these warbirds grounded.
 
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Sorry, I didn’t study every response. Was the smaller plane trying to join up with the bomber, or just attempting it’s own orbit around the field?

I’m sure it’s obvious to some what the plan was. Yes, very experienced aviators, that adage of aviation being unforgiving with missteps comes to mind.
 
aggie06 said:
My apologies if I came across rude. The Dixie Wing's P-63A is also a part of history, and it's neat that you were able to see it at a tiny airport years ago.
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You weren't rude, and I accept your apologies, although none were needed ... I guess that I (and many other members of this forum) am feeling a bit thin skinned about this crash and all it involves. I think this crash has all of us a bit edgy, because it involved people regarded to be the best at what they do and airplanes that define an era of America at its greatest. This crash was documented by several videos that revealed how quickly things can go wrong in aviation and how tragically violent the results can be. For the sake of all who participate in airshows, I hope the cause of this crash can be quickly determined.
 
GLMS_NC said:
More names mentioned, along with comments from an aviation attorney.
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That attorney is a tick on aviation. Yeah, he "reviewed" everything has come to about as informed comment than anybody else on this thread (which seems to have been disproved by others here). Nice, he managed to get himself inserted in the press to chase possible lawsuits. The sad matter is that there are a lot of low lifes who are all too eager to make themselves available to the hungry press to spew their opinions into the matter.
 
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When I had the chance to fly a TF-51 once, the owner and I had a long conversation before we got in. He said you have to know when things go wrong in a Mustang, they go wrong in a hurry. The P-63 is also a very fast plane and no matter what the results of the investigation, things went wrong in a hurry. Your reaction time, no matter how many hours you have, may not be good enough. We lost a man who always had a smile on his face and made the world a better place. I didn't know anyone on the B-17 crew, but I'm sure they were also great men. Still doesn't seem real.
 
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