Unwarranted volunteer firings at Oshkosh

flyingron

flyingron

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FlyingRon
As some of you probably will have realized by my posts here, I've been a devout volunteer in the Vintage Flight Line which provides the personnel safety, crowd control, and aircraft movements for everything south of the Communications Building at Oshkosh including most of the Vintage aircraft parking as well as the access to the Ultralight area and Emergency Aircraft Repair and, of late, GA overflow parking.

We were shocked when Geoff Robison called four of our volunteers late last week. Mike Kosta and Cathy McGurran, our main chairmen were summarily removed from their posts. Randy Hytry, another chairman, was told that he was not permitted to volunteer anymore at all. A fourth non-chairman worker bee was told he was not to volunteer anymore either. Geoff gave no explanation other than a vague reference to friction with Flight Line Safety (the people who manage the taxiways north of the Comm building) and that this was a board decision and any further inquiries would have to be made to EAA Human Resources.

Oddly, the first thing I did was to contact some of the other board members who appeared as surprised as I was. I also contacted some of the chairs of Flight Line Safety and they were dumbfounded as well. Further, when four contacted EAA HR, they were told it's a Vintage board thing and were referred back to them.

I can tell you that Mike and Kathy are excellent leaders. Not only have they honed the operation into a safe and efficient machine but they demonstrate to the volunteers on the Vintage Flight Line that they are valued by their action. I can't tell you the number of times I've sat down with them to make suggestions to them or to ask questions. When the fertilizer hits the ventilator on the flight line, it's a short radio call to "Denver" (Mike) or "Colorado Cutie" (Kathy) to get assistance to resolve whatever the issue is.

Nobody has been able to explain or even guess at a reason why the Vintage Flight Line was "decapitated" in this manner or how we are going to proceed.

If you are a vintage member (or even not), I encourage you to contact the board (their information is in the back of the Vintage Airplane magazine). In the interest of not setting them up for a lot of spam, I won't post their information on this publicly readable forum.
 
sounds like the ban-hammer action 'round here HIYOoooooo. prob too much 'locker room talk' goin on at The 'Kosh.


jk, but I honestly I have no idea what's going on over there. sorry to hear about it.
 
Pardon my ignorance but who is Geoff Robison?

Cheers
 
Sounds like a personality conflict or politics sort of thing. Unfortunate. Unless there is some sort of eggregious behavior, volunteers should be cherished and any issues worked out.
 
flyingron said:
As some of you probably will have realized by my posts here, I've been a devout volunteer in the Vintage Flight Line which provides the personnel safety, crowd control, and aircraft movements for everything south of the Communications Building at Oshkosh including most of the Vintage aircraft parking as well as the access to the Ultralight area and Emergency Aircraft Repair and, of late, GA overflow parking.

We were shocked when Geoff Robison called four of our volunteers late last week. Mike Kosta and Cathy McGurran, our main chairmen were summarily removed from their posts. Randy Hytry, another chairman, was told that he was not permitted to volunteer anymore at all. A fourth non-chairman worker bee was told he was not to volunteer anymore either. Geoff gave no explanation other than a vague reference to friction with Flight Line Safety (the people who manage the taxiways north of the Comm building) and that this was a board decision and any further inquiries would have to be made to EAA Human Resources.

Oddly, the first thing I did was to contact some of the other board members who appeared as surprised as I was. I also contacted some of the chairs of Flight Line Safety and they were dumbfounded as well. Further, when four contacted EAA HR, they were told it's a Vintage board thing and were referred back to them.

I can tell you that Mike and Kathy are excellent leaders. Not only have they honed the operation into a safe and efficient machine but they demonstrate to the volunteers on the Vintage Flight Line that they are valued by their action. I can't tell you the number of times I've sat down with them to make suggestions to them or to ask questions. When the fertilizer hits the ventilator on the flight line, it's a short radio call to "Denver" (Mike) or "Colorado Cutie" (Kathy) to get assistance to resolve whatever the issue is.

Nobody has been able to explain or even guess at a reason why the Vintage Flight Line was "decapitated" in this manner or how we are going to proceed.

If you are a vintage member (or even not), I encourage you to contact the board (their information is in the back of the Vintage Airplane magazine). In the interest of not setting them up for a lot of spam, I won't post their information on this publicly readable forum.
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Sounds like your next if he reads this lol
 
Since you were not one of the banned volunteers and were <presumably> not privy to the conversations that led up to the ban, that puts you in an awkward position. Your friends could be glossing over the keg they had stashed in a Gatorade cooler along the flightline. Your friends could have told the safety folks "Put that truck over there" and a couple of the words were mis-interpreted. That, or someone involved said "Hightower could have done better than this." and really ticked people off.

In any case, you'll never know all of the facts because you won't be able to speak to all of the individuals on both sides of the issue to be sure you have the whole, unvarnished, story from all perspectives.

Lacking all of the facts, what I would do is focus on the process. Did EAA/Vintage management gave a fair audience to the people on both sides of the spat, get the whole story, and try to resolve the situation before resorting to these actions? The last resort would be to dismiss volunteers, and that would take some intentional rule breaking and an unrepentant de-brief on behalf of the volunteers.
 
I have know these people for decades. I can assure you they are not glossing over anything.

There was no "fair audience" at all. They were given phone calls removing them from their positions (and at least with three of them) banning them from volunteering in any capacity. When the people involved inquired as to what was going on, they were referred to EAA HR. EAA HR says they know nothing and it is purely a Vintage board thing.

For one who admits to knowing nothing that is going on, you're overly enamored with throwing mud at these people who have over 100 years of committed volunteer hours who weren't even given an explanation as to why they were summarily booted in the middle of the year.
 
I wonder who Geoff has replaced them with? Or has he not made that decision yet.
For him to dismiss four of them at the same timeframe makes it a bit of a head scratcher.
 
flyingron said:
I have know these people for decades. I can assure you they are not glossing over anything.

There was no "fair audience" at all. They were given phone calls removing them from their positions (and at least with three of them) banning them from volunteering in any capacity. When the people involved inquired as to what was going on, they were referred to EAA HR. EAA HR says they know nothing and it is purely a Vintage board thing.

For one who admits to knowing nothing that is going on, you're overly enamored with throwing mud at these people who have over 100 years of committed volunteer hours who weren't even given an explanation as to why they were summarily booted in the middle of the year.
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Pump the brakes Ron. I've thrown zero mud. I stated that you will never know all of the facts because you were not there and were not involved in whatever happened or didn't. You're getting half of the story, and the other half may be bizarrely different - possibly a weird misunderstanding, possibly something else. Find the decision maker and ask about the process that took place. Don't ask for facts, you aren't likely to get them. Find out what process led to this action. I'd start with whoever made the phone calls.

I thought my suggestions were constructive. You don't like 'em, come up with your own plan. But don't lash out at me because you're too emotionally invested to recognize well-intended advice when it is offered.
 
moma always told me, no good deed goes unpunished.
 
How one votes and who they support politically seems to make a big difference to some people now days. Just sayin,,,
 
How can a volunteer be fired?
 
Not all people who work in an organization get paid. Unpaid workers are called volunteers. Anyone who works in an organization can be dismissed. Being dismissed from an organization is commonly referred to as being fired.
 
Jim_R said:
Not all people who work in an organization get paid. Unpaid workers are called volunteers. Anyone who works in an organization can be dismissed. Being dismissed from an organization is commonly referred to as being fired.
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Lol. Yes, that's true. But my point is that being denied the ability to work for free isn't actually a horrible punishment.
 
Salty said:
Lol. Yes, that's true. But my point is that being denied the ability to work for free isn't actually a horrible punishment.
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You need to hang around with the volunteer groups more. It's the highlight of the year for many of those people.
 
Not only do they enjoy volunteering, but they get a discount/free attendance at OSH for doing volunteer work. That may be the difference between attending or not for some of the locals.

The volunteers really do make the show better and discouraging them in any way is... discouraging at best.

I've been twice, stayed the whole week. NEVER encountered a volunteer who was unpleasant in any way. We're likely to volunteer at least one day this year to give back a little.
 
I just found out this hit the photographers too. A guy I know who is an incredible air-to-air photographer and volunteered his skills was told he was no longer needed. I believe it was most, if not all of the photographers. Hopefully I didn't just waste my $40 on re-joining!
 
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The EAA normalized the wristband/camping perks across the field. It used to be that each group got a certain number of bands to give out and it was up tot he chairmen to dole them out. This resulted in some groups giving out wristbands for any amount of work, while others who had substantial volunteer corps could only give them to a few hardcore volunteers.

Now, it's 40 hours for a wristband and 60 for camping credentials. Of course, I put in over a 100 hours (115 I think last year).
 
flyingron said:
The EAA normalized the wristband/camping perks across the field. It used to be that each group got a certain number of bands to give out and it was up tot he chairmen to dole them out. This resulted in some groups giving out wristbands for any amount of work, while others who had substantial volunteer corps could only give them to a few hardcore volunteers.

Now, it's 40 hours for a wristband and 60 for camping credentials. Of course, I put in over a 100 hours (115 I think last year).
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I've reached out to them for more details, but I'd like to take air-to-air photos as well as photos on the ground. I know a few photographers who have done this every year. I'm not sure how you'd quantify 40 hours of photography, but I'm not looking for anything free... I have a place to stay there, and would even pay for my entry... I just want the photo opportunities! We'll see what they say. I've had them use my photos in their magazine, even getting the cover of the Experimenter section once, but I would like to do that more often.
 
I suspect your best bet would be to make inquiries with the editors that you've been dealing with.
 
Sorry to hear. I would also think all volunteers would be cherished. Someone got their dander up for whatever reason.
 
Volunteer hours are gold when applying for any type of grant money. Example, the Denver Museum values the many thousand of vounteer hours per year as its most important asset after the physical artifacts. EAA is a 501(c)3 so I wonder how it tracks volunteer hours and the comparative dollar value. Losing volunteer hours translates to losing real dollars.
 
Each group during the show keeps track of the hours and reports them to EAA HR. People who volunteer (at least more than a trivial amount) get a nice letter from the EAA pres about now that tells them about the glories of tax deductions.

The Vintage Flight Line that these chairman led put in an aggregate of over 11,000 hours last year. I put in about 115, myself. This I know because Margy runs the operation where the volunteers check in/out on the flight line. I help her by typing in the volunteer time records into excel and she still had 2016's sheet on her laptop.
 
Well the Vintage Board met on Saturday. We obviously are not party to the actual discussion but the results are:

The three dismissed chairmen were reinstated.
Susan Dusenbury has been named new President of the VAA.

All seems right with the world.
 
Ron, if you ever get the full story please consider posting at least a summary. I for one am interested in hearing the rest of the story.
 
flyingron said:
Well the Vintage Board met on Saturday. We obviously are not party to the actual discussion but the results are:

The three dismissed chairmen were reinstated.
Susan Dusenbury has been named new President of the VAA.

All seems right with the world.
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Good news. I cannot imagine what long term volunteers would need to do to be dismissed, particularly without some sort of counseling before things turned really ugly.
 
Question. For the event, with everything going on, do they bring in additional volunteer fire and EMS units to cover that week? Or do they just rely on the local ARFF team on-site to bring in additional resources and/or auxiliaries? I'm interested to know how they handle public safety that week.
 
To cover the runways themselves, Wittman field has their own ARFF unit and they also bring in some military units from nearby fields (Volk ANG I know has been there in the past). They take turns staffing positions at show center and the north and south end of the show line.

For the crowd side EMS, there are a couple of first aid stations staffed around the field plus a medical center up in show center with real doctors in it. Anything more serious I think just gets a regular 911 response.

Police is handled by a combination of EAA in house security, some rent-a-cops, and the local Sheriff's office.
 
Maybe I'll see you there Ron. Got the official invite!

Hi Jack,

I’m pleased to formally invite you to be a member of the EAA photo team at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2017, which is July 24-30 at Wittman Regional Airport in Oshkosh. We extend this invitation based on your quality work, your enthusiasm to join the EAA photo crew at Oshkosh, and your willingness to be part of a supportive team that chronicles The World’s Greatest Aviation Celebration.
 
I'm often out on the taxiway while aircraft are moving roughly in line with the Hangar Cafe.
 
flyingron said:
I'm often out on the taxiway while aircraft are moving roughly in line with the Hangar Cafe.
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I don't have any details yet, but once they tell me where they want me and what they want me doing I'll try to sync up with you. I'm assuming it'll be a combination of photos they specifically want and some of me just walking around. Looking forward to it!
 
Lowflynjack said:
Maybe I'll see you there Ron. Got the official invite!

Hi Jack,

I’m pleased to formally invite you to be a member of the EAA photo team at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2017, which is July 24-30 at Wittman Regional Airport in Oshkosh. We extend this invitation based on your quality work, your enthusiasm to join the EAA photo crew at Oshkosh, and your willingness to be part of a supportive team that chronicles The World’s Greatest Aviation Celebration.
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Well deserved Jack! Congrats. I can't wait to see your pics, if they let you release them.
 
flyingron said:
To cover the runways themselves, Wittman field has their own ARFF unit and they also bring in some military units from nearby fields (Volk ANG I know has been there in the past). They take turns staffing positions at show center and the north and south end of the show line.

For the crowd side EMS, there are a couple of first aid stations staffed around the field plus a medical center up in show center with real doctors in it. Anything more serious I think just gets a regular 911 response.

Police is handled by a combination of EAA in house security, some rent-a-cops, and the local Sheriff's office.
Click to expand...

For the "real 911 response" there are two staging areas for ambulances that I've noted in Scholler, one of them being somewhat "new" the last couple of years, just northwest of Lindbergh about 45th or so, where camping was not permitted, to keep some space for an ambulance and a rescue to park and maneuver. The other is over near the Red Barn. Usually all three staged there, EMS, Fire, and PD/Sheriff.

The new staging area seemed to be directly set up to be close to the newer 24 hour generator area and electrical plug in areas, which is likely that there's some somewhat sickly folks in their RVs who need continuous power for medical equipment. Sorry to say it, but I think they were worried about response times to that area from the other staging area near the Red Barn, because of times when airshows are starting and letting out, that area is clogged with foot traffic, and they're likely staging closer because that's where they get the more serious calls from.

That staging area and ambulance south of the big ditch and the rescue also seem to cover stuff further west first in Scholler now, rather than have the stuff near the Red Barn try to fight their way out there.

We saw a lot of non-emergency responses (lights only, especially at night) dispatched from that newish parking/staging area this last year. And one haul-ass lights and sirens response headed out toward the highway edge but still inside Scholler.

That one MAY have coincided with the discovery of the dead body, from the guy who suffered a heart attack on his bicycle at night, fell over into a ditch, and wasn't found until morning, but I didn't hear about that event until later, and can't remember if the day correlated.

A full blown dispatch with siren going would have only been for someone in grave condition. In general, they treated it like a "quiet zone" and lights were the most we saw. If they were ever noisy, we didn't hear it, and the trailer windows are open all night. The sound of a diesel and some lights was pretty common going somewhere every hour or two until midnight or so most nights. Some of that was shift changes.

We saw them rotating out the ambulance, the rescue unit, and the crews on what I would have described as a pretty standard watch schedule for our local FD and EMS here st home. Seemed like the folks manning that staging spot were on a pretty standard schedule. Just not "in quarters".

Thought about taking those fine folks some lunch or dinner some evening this year. I'm sure EAA takes care of them as well as their departments, but some camp goodies might be welcome, since they're neighbors like anyone else in Scholler.

Someone pointed out that our camper has a freaking oven in it and that fresh baked cookies are in order when one has such a thing. We never even thought of it, since we usually cook outside... smacking my forehead on that one...

Plus... experimentation pre-OSH to get the proper temp and time may be REQUIRED and since I'm the only one here to test said cookies for uniformity and taste... I may just have to sacrifice myself to the task. :)
 
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