Rolling a cessna

I rolled an old Citabria once that hadn't done acro in years. Turns out I didn't keep it positive and decades of dirt came up (down) to greet me! I can't imagine how bad it would be in an old 172!!
 
Start with a stable 60* bank to the left, then roll to a 60* bank to the right. Have someone time it. An actual aileron roll will take roughly three times that long. That should be enough to discourage you.

Of course they can do aileron rolls in the right hands (not mine and probably not yours), but it would be really scary in the second half and not much fun at all. If you do it, please make sure there are cameras running so you can at least serve as an example.
 
Hang 4 said:
Or you could roll with the engines off.
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A Bob Hoover video I've not seen before. He was one of the first, if not the first, aerobatic performers I saw at OSH in 1980 when it was just the "EAA Fly In". A friend who flew F14s just shook his head in awe after watching Hoover fly that Commander like a Pitts. Thanks for that vid link!
 
hindsight2020 said:
We call that the barrel dive over here in UPT land. Its pretty common. In aircraft with undersized ailerons and travel like most spam cans, that becomes more aggravated. To wit, looping the-- ah ha! Not today!
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I could just feel that thing winding up. Please kids, when you realize you've done something stupid and are screaming earthward (relative term), pull the power off!
 
Rental Cutlasses tell by failure to contain fuel after abuse.
 
What a great slow roll, Wifferdill. Thanks for letting us ride along.
 
There was a accident report where it is theorized the guy attempted to roll a fully loaded Baron. This came from the fact that the pilot said on a previous flight "I'm pretty sure I could roll this thing," but was stopped by the other pilot aboard. When flying in my architect's Baron, I used that line :)
 
Com’on guys, help him out. If he doesn’t know how to roll a Cessna, how is he going to properly ditch it?
 
Classic panic halfway through the roll and attempt to pull the airplane through from inverted nose down attitude and overspeed/stress. Any airplane with better ailerons than a Curtiss Jenny is quite easy to roll, just not for those who "think" they can.

 
flyingron said:
Here's the final on the "I think I can roll this Baron" crash
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Ugh....all I want to be able to do in the Cessna 170 that I've started my PPL training on is do a decent take off (check...ish), fly with decent control authority (check) and land that beautiful old ship without too much tail-wagging (need lots of practice) and hurting it, or me and others, in the process. Then, I read something like this and feel it unbecoming of the private aviation community that I've viewed with high esteem. Does experience/time without incident degrade or corrupt good judgement? I'd rather go west as an old pilot than a bold one.
 
BMan said:
Ugh....all I want to be able to do in the Cessna 170 that I've started my PPL training on is do a decent take off (check...ish), fly with decent control authority (check) and land that beautiful old ship without too much tail-wagging (need lots of practice) and hurting it, or me and others, in the process. Then, I read something like this and feel it unbecoming of the private aviation community that I've viewed with high esteem. Does experience/time without incident degrade or corrupt good judgement? I'd rather go west as an old pilot than a bold one.
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For the most part pilots are an exemplary group. Some folks have better judgment than others. Sad to say but Darwin usually is really good at sorting out the ones that practice bad judgment ...

Walk the high road, it's much less crowded!
 
RoscoeT said:
Classic panic halfway through the roll and attempt to pull the airplane through from inverted nose down attitude and overspeed/stress. Any airplane with better ailerons than a Curtiss Jenny is quite easy to roll, just not for those who "think" they can.

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Dual engine failure? :eek:
 
RyanShort1 said:
Over a decade ago I saw a Cessna 150 with a busted back window… there was a reason it was busted. If you don’t actually know what you’re doing, you are actually endangering the lives of those underneath you.
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The Cessna 150 gets broken rear windows, most commonly, from bird-strikes.
 
They will spin…and probably barrel roll just fine. But, I’d do one or two with an acro pilot first.
 
Hang 4 said:
Or you could roll with the engines off.
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That guy did all kinds of things with the engines off and on. All kinds of things that are not supposed to be done in a non aerobatic airplane. But then again Bob Hoover.
 
bluerooster said:
That guy did all kinds of things with the engines off and on. All kinds of things that are not supposed to be done in a non aerobatic airplane. But then again Bob Hoover.
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When I was a teen watching Bob Hoover perfom at OSH (back when it was just the Fly In Convention) I overheard someone say he could do aerobatics with a kitchen table if dropped from a C-130.
 
Most basic aerobatic can be done well within the limits of a Normal Category airplane. The problem comes when you screw up a maneuver and have to pull more G to recover.
 
My aircraft, the Decathlon, has a track record of numerous accidents from low level rolls. 8KCAB is fully aerobatic with inverted systems, but the roll rate is terrible on older birds, and the semi-symmetric airfoil needs plenty of nose up through inverted. Numerous pilots have discovered that a roll completed easily at 1000 AGL can be a fatal event at 100 AGL. Usually showing off for someone on the ground. At least a dozen crashes over the years with this profile, the last time I skimmed the NTSB.
 
Pinecone said:
Most basic aerobatic can be done well within the limits of a Normal Category airplane. The problem comes when you screw up a maneuver and have to pull more G to recover.
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I don't think a lot of folks appreciate just how much wing dihedral and relatively limited roll authority can mess with someone trying to complete a "ballistic" roll on a training aircraft not intended for aerobatics. You've gotta KNOW ahead of time why the earlier poster said "we call them barrel dives here in UPT land." You start out thinking your gonna make a pretty roll and end up with a slightly nose low recovery. But, what you find out through 180 degrees of roll is regardless of how much you pitch up to begin with, you're already pointing down at the ground like a badmitten off a poorly hit serve.
 
wilkersk said:
But, what you find out through 180 degrees of roll is regardless of how much you pitch up to begin with, you're already pointing down at the ground like a badmitten off a poorly hit serve.
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And then you lose sight of the horizon, panic and pull "up"...
 
BirdDogs do barrel rolls nicely. Aerodynamically, just a CE 170, but it has a nice, long stick that provides good leverage.
A WW2 Naval aviator once told me of looping a PBY Catalina, but that's a little off topic.
 
Pinecone said:
Most basic aerobatic can be done well within the limits of a Normal Category airplane. The problem comes when you screw up a maneuver and have to pull more G to recover.
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This is correct. But there is very little room for error from an aerodynamic or structural standpoint. The video with the Cessna rolling illustrates this very well. When the roll entry is executed poorly, you exit in a nose-low diving spiral in which recovery requires high-g loading at high speed... The absolute worst scenario for an inflight break up.

Even aerobatic-rated aircraft can easily be overspeeded or overstressed when ham-fisted pilots botch maneuvers. An example is an RV. Any one of the RV's in the RV4-8 model series are sturdy and excellent control authority. What pilots don't realize is a RV is a small and clean airframe and picks up speed VERY quickly on the downline, or if a roll/spin exit is incorrect. As a result multiple RV's have been lost due to inflight break up.
 
mic2377 said:
This is correct. But there is very little room for error from an aerodynamic or structural standpoint. The video with the Cessna rolling illustrates this very well. When the roll entry is executed poorly, you exit in a nose-low diving spiral in which recovery requires high-g loading at high speed... The absolute worst scenario for an inflight break up.

Even aerobatic-rated aircraft can easily be overspeeded or overstressed when ham-fisted pilots botch maneuvers. An example is an RV. Any one of the RV's in the RV4-8 model series are sturdy and excellent control authority. What pilots don't realize is a RV is a small and clean airframe and picks up speed VERY quickly on the downline, or if a roll/spin exit is incorrect. As a result multiple RV's have been lost due to inflight break up.
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All true but for the casual readers here it should be understood that everything described above applies to pilots who have had little or probably NO training, and attempt stupid things they are totally unqualified for. It takes very little skill to safely roll nearly any airplane, but you need to have had just enough training and experience to know the pitfalls and to KNOW you can do it safely rather than just THINK you can. A little quality training goes a long way.
 
RoscoeT said:
It takes very little skill to safely roll nearly any airplane, but you need to have had just enough training and experience to know the pitfalls and to KNOW you can do it safely rather than just THINK you can.
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Be that as it may, no one - other than possibly highly trained airshow pilots - should even think about rolling a non-aerobatic plane. Ever. Or even an aerobatic plane, without adequate training.
 
FastEddieB said:
Be that as it may, no one - other than possibly highly trained airshow pilots - should even think about rolling a non-aerobatic plane. Ever.
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I disagree. Don't put "airshow pilots" on a pedestal, they are just regular people who fly airshows as a hobby for the ego stroke and fun. Their talent and skill levels range from very modest to very high, just like recreational aerobatic pilots in general. Becoming an airshow pilot is more about marketing yourself and working through the ICAS levels and rules designed to prevent pilots from crashing their airplane into the spectators. Nothing about the process ensures only pilots with world class skills and judgment end up flying in front of crowds. The actual evaluation maneuvers are quite simple for any decent aerobatic pilot, even weekend warriors who have have had good training and who have above average dedication to the art and safety of aerobatics. YouTube is littered with videos of "airshow pilots" drilling holes in the ground because their skills were inadequate for what they were attempting. Not all airshow pilots are Rob Holland and David Martin types. VERY far from it.

I'm not advocating people consider "non-aerobatic" airplanes plenty good for doing aerobatics in general, just making a point about airshow pilots. I know lots of non-airshow pilots with more aerobatic skill than 90% of the airshow pilots out there. For anyone wondering if they have sufficient aerobatic skill to roll a Cessna 172, they don't. Those who do have the skills don't wonder about it, but are also going to have little interest in rolling a 172 just to roll it. Meh. But the Darwin award winners aren't likely to read and ponder this discussion.
 
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