Logging question - sim time

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

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Fox McCloud
I have my instrument rating, but unfortunately I can't always find IMC in the Goldilock zone. (Ceilings above mins but below FAF, no storms or ice, etc). So I do a few approaches in the sim to keep current

I notice different CFIIs log them differently. Any opinions? "Sim instrument" is a no brainer, but dual, and "flight time" vary across CFIIs. Idk if I could say "I flew a red bird."

Also, when is flight or sim time with an instructor "dual"?
 
As we speak, I'm working on an article for IFR magazine on logging sim time for currency, with regulatory references and my recommendations for paper logbooks. Single most important point: a sim is not an "aircraft" and nothing you do in it is "flight time."

Both are regulatory defined as training given.

61.51
h) Logging training time.

(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.​
 
My sim entries are instrument and dual received. Dat be it.
 
I don't include any sim time in any of my totals, not even Level D time. It's just easier that way.
 
dmspilot said:
I don't include any sim time in any of my totals, not even Level D time. It's just easier that way.
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Same. I don’t count the hours, just the approaches and holds.
 
My log book has simulated instrument flight and Flight Sim columns. During my instrument training my flight school Redbird time was logged under the sim instrument flight column (for those portions in simulated IMC), and the total simulated tine under the Flight Sim and Dual columns, but nowhere else. I was going a 141 program and the regs at the time allowed 14 hrs of dual sim time to count towards the 35 hour minimum total required.

Today, at home with my personal Redbird, I only log sim time under the simulated instrument flight and Flight Sim columns even though that time is meaningless but I like to track it nevertheless.
 
asicer said:
What about 61.57(c)(2) which allows for solo sim time to be used for currency?
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That's exactly what the article is about. No, being alone with a sim is obviously not training given. But training given was the original question.
 
tsts4 said:
My log book has simulated instrument flight and Flight Sim columns. During my instrument training my flight school Redbird time was logged under the sim instrument flight column (for those portions in simulated IMC), and the total simulated tine under the Flight Sim and Dual columns, but nowhere else. I was going a 141 program and the regs at the time allowed 14 hrs of dual sim time to count towards the 35 hour minimum total required.

Today, at home with my personal Redbird, I only log sim time under the simulated instrument flight and Flight Sim columns even though that time is meaningless but I like to track it nevertheless.
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You don't log the approaches, holds, and tracking?
 
midlifeflyer said:
You don't log the approaches, holds, and tracking?
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Yes, of course as that's the only important part of the entry now that I have my rating. I was only addressing the hours part of the entries in my original post.
 
tsts4 said:
Yes, of course as that's the only important part of the entry now that I have my rating. I was only addressing the hours part of the entries in my original post.
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Well, the time is worth something since it's a requirement.

No, there's no hour requirements for currency but there is the reg that says

A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for satisfying instrument recency experience requirements provided a logbook or training record is maintained to specify the training device, time, and the content.​
 
midlifeflyer said:
Well, the time is worth something since it's a requirement.

No, there's no hour requirements for currency but there is the reg that says

A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for satisfying instrument recency experience requirements provided a logbook or training record is maintained to specify the training device, time, and the content.​
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Sigh. OK professor. "Worth something" and "important" aren't synonymous. If you have issues with my use of "important" - fine. Speaking only for myself, the "content" is more "important" than the time (although as you posted time is still required as part of the complete entry), simply because the actual time recorded is meaningless beyond the context of the blurb you posted. Unlike during training when time is important as it counts towards a requirement.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Well, the time is worth something since it's a requirement.

No, there's no hour requirements for currency but there is the reg that says

A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for satisfying instrument recency experience requirements provided a logbook or training record is maintained to specify the training device, time, and the content.​
Click to expand...
I read that to mean the time the simulated flight occurred, not the time spent. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting.
 
asicer said:
What about 61.57(c)(2) which allows for solo sim time to be used for currency?
Click to expand...

Never done it. Only sim time was with an instructor during instrument training.
 
tsts4 said:
Sigh. OK professor. "Worth something" and "important" aren't synonymous. If you have issues with my use of "important" - fine. Speaking only for myself, the "content" is more "important" than the time (although as you posted time is still required as part of the complete entry), simply because the actual time recorded is meaningless beyond the context of the blurb you posted. Unlike during training when time is important as it counts towards a requirement.
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I figure an entry the FAA will look at to determine whether you were current at the time of a pilot deviation is both "worth something" and "important". I could be wrong about that.
 
IMHO a sim is good for trying out things not ideal in an aircraft - single engine IMC work, approaches to exact mins (vertical stab still in the clouds), terrible winds and weather. And of course not just partial panel, but first identifying and then covering on your own which instrument is lying to you.

@OP how far is Fontana from the coast? Lots of airports with approaches there - find a good marine layer and shoot a bunch. Not ideal as that layer always seems to be nice and smooth, but way better than any sim. Inland CA weather tends to be "bad" for so little time that it's hard to even get up in time to practice. Moves in, moves out. Tule fog can come to stay, but then ceilings and vis may well be below mins.
 
Steamflyer said:
@OP how far is Fontana from the coast? Lots of airports with approaches there - find a good marine layer and shoot a bunch.
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Not too far. 30-40 nm I suppose.
You know what the irony is? Flyable IMC occurs on workdays with either VMC or icing occurring when me and the rentals are available.
 
Steamflyer said:
IMHO a sim is good for trying out things not ideal in an aircraft - single engine IMC work, approaches to exact mins (vertical stab still in the clouds), terrible winds and weather. And of course not just partial panel, but first identifying and then covering on your own which instrument is lying to you.

@OP how far is Fontana from the coast? Lots of airports with approaches there - find a good marine layer and shoot a bunch. Not ideal as that layer always seems to be nice and smooth, but way better than any sim. Inland CA weather tends to be "bad" for so little time that it's hard to even get up in time to practice. Moves in, moves out. Tule fog can come to stay, but then ceilings and vis may well be below mins.
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The most difficult thing in a sim for currency is answering the question, "what can I set up and do to increase my proficiency and not merely check a box for currency? I wonder how many toss in an interesting ODP once in a while?
 
midlifeflyer said:
The most difficult thing in a sim for currency is answering the question, "what can I set up and do to increase my proficiency and not merely check a box for currency? I wonder how many toss in an interesting ODP once in a while?
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ODPs, diverts, turbulence, failed airspeed, AI, HSI, whatever. Sims are great. Real currency however occurs in the airplane - but if the sim sessions were good and challenging, the airplane is "easy" relatively.

@OP - June Gloom should be here, allowing for IMC many days!
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's exactly what the article is about. No, being alone with a sim is obviously not training given. But training given was the original question.
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You're such a tease. I suppose I'll have to look forward to you burying the lede when your article is published. ;)
midlifeflyer said:
I wonder how many toss in an interesting ODP once in a while?
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I sometimes do when I'm feeling a little cheeky.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The most difficult thing in a sim for currency is answering the question, "what can I set up and do to increase my proficiency and not merely check a box for currency?
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If you do too well the instructor quietly fails an instrument or two on you.
 
Pi1otguy said:
If you do too well the instructor quietly fails an instrument or two on you.
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What instructor?
midlifeflyer said:
The most difficult thing in a sim for currency is answering the question, "what can I set up and do to increase my proficiency and not merely check a box for currency? I wonder how many toss in an interesting ODP once in a while?
Click to expand...
 
EdFred said:
The one that's with you while doing sim currency. While it CAN be done solo, it doesn't need to be.
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Yes, but my comment was about creating scenarios for oneself to do more than just check boxes. "What can I do to set things up for myself?" That's the challenge.
 
My paper logbook has a column for FTD Simulation (along with Actual and Simulated) under Instrument. So with I did my IPC time, it was logged as FTD under Category and Class. FTD Simulation under Instrument, and Flight Training Received.

I would NOT log it under Simulated Instrument Flight, as it is not in flight.
 
Pinecone said:
My paper logbook has a column for FTD Simulation (along with Actual and Simulated) under Instrument. So with I did my IPC time, it was logged as FTD under Category and Class. FTD Simulation under Instrument, and Flight Training Received.

I would NOT log it under Simulated Instrument Flight, as it is not in flight.
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Dedicating the simulated column to hood time is a good bookkeeping choice, especially when you have a separate column to record the simulated time.

For those with digital logbooks, the standard seems to be to log it as simulated instrument. The logbook knows how to separate the device time from the air time.
 
asicer said:
You're such a tease. I suppose I'll have to look forward to you burying the lede when your article is published. ;)
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Actually, the coincidence of this thread coming up while I'm in the middle of writing has been extremely helpful for a number of reasons.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually, the coincidence of this thread coming up while I'm in the middle of writing has been extremely helpful for a number of reasons.
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Can your future article simplify what "flight" is? For "flight", "PIC", etc I just ask myself "how much paperwork is involved if I mess up?"
 
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