The 727 is a narrow body and most definitely has a fuel dumping system.Do you realize what incredible improvements in air quality have been made in Los Angeles? Probably not, since you aren't from Los Angeles.
Since when did the MD80, or any narrowbody, have a fuel dump system?
Also, there was no way the aircraft was that high when they did this. They also had no need to dump, just do the over weight landing. They had 13000 feet and a headwind.
VASAviation already did a video
What you are referencing is present in this thread. It’s crazy. The ignorance and refusal to accept any input from others is also there ... crazy times.What we have here is a culture which magnifies problems, rather than dealing with them. Your kid got a mist of kerosene on him/her. S/he needs to take a shower and change clothes. End of story.
Instead...
The MD80 series does not have fuel dumping on any version.The only requirement on the ATC end for fuel dumping is to assign an altitude of at least 2,000 ft AHO and then keep aircraft 5 miles away. Obviously if in an emergency they could be well below that. Saw a MD-80 depart SAN once with an engine failure that immediately landed at Miramar. They were dumping fuel at 700 ft.
They should be thankful it wasn't Skydrol.
Post the atc link(s)?Listening to the exchange on the radio, it sounds like they were planning on landing overweight. I wonder if there was some cockpit miscommunication?
See Delta’s problem is that they were kids at school who didn’t expect or need to get a shower of jet fuel dumped on their heads. Doesn’t matter that some of us in aviation use it to clean parts or take a bath. It’s a toxic liquid purposefully dumped over a populated area.
Every lawyer worth a crap can make that case, and they will say “the crew could have dumped over the ocean” which, being directly off the departure from LAX, is a pretty easy case to make. The defense will be “no time, we had a major emergency and needed to turn around ASAP”.
Improved but still bad.Do you realize what incredible improvements in air quality have been made in Los Angeles? Probably not, since you aren't from Los Angeles.
See Delta’s problem is that they were kids at school who didn’t expect or need to get a shower of jet fuel dumped on their heads. Doesn’t matter that some of us in aviation use it to clean parts or take a bath. It’s a toxic liquid purposefully dumped over a populated area. Every lawyer worth a crap can make that case, and they will say “the crew could have dumped over the ocean” which, being directly off the departure from LAX, is a pretty easy case to make. The defense will be “no time, we had a major emergency and needed to turn around ASAP”. Then response will be “not major enough that you had time to bypass Burbank and get in line for LAX again”. And, the final blow, is “so, you chose to jettison the fuel over a known populated area, rather than just land the aircraft heavy and risk fuselage damage?
Of course, Delta knows what they’re facing so they’ll dish out some cash to make it go away. No real injuries so a little bit of cashola now can prevent the scum lawyers from building a fake case. You better believe people were running over there, splashing their arms with car gas, flopping to the ground moaning. Gotta get in on the action.
I am certain some of it got on me here in the Upper Mid-West... Who do i sue?
Here you go... I won't comment on it right now...Post the atc link(s)?
If they were at 7K feet, they could have reasonably believed that the fuel would evaporate. In which case, tough luck, 'cuz I doubt that there will be any long-term consequences (I've had mouthfuls of kerosene and diesel fuel, and actually swallowed gasoline. My body quickly 'unswallowed' it.) If there is legal action, I predict that the only winners will be the plaintiff's attorneys.A major cooperation doesn't get to dump fuel on school children and then just say "go take a shower."
They will pay a price here, and honestly, they probably should unless an emergency mandated it. We don't live in a world where someone can dump fuel on people and then say tough luck.
They seemed content not to dump fuel. Okay, and totally understood. As I understand it many aircraft don't even have fuel dump capabilities http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/faqs/fueldump.pdf GET BACK SAFE! is the main priority when you're cranking on just one engine.. and who knows what other damage / issue the bad one may haveWhat’s your point?
So the decision to dump fuel at low altitude on final is a perplexing one.. was my point. Unfortunately the most relevant part of the audio is missing, when the actual dump happenedLanding over weight isn’t a huge deal in itself, it just involves an inspection. Which inspection is dependent upon just how overweight the airplane is.
Come on, Greg... I respectfully disagree. You know as well as I do, absent maybe an inflight fire, there is nothing in a modern passenger aircraft that is going to cause you to have to do an immediate return to the airport. Especially not a engine with a compressor stall.What’s your point?
In an emergency, the Captain can do whatever he needs to do to get his passengers on the ground as safely as possible. When a loss of an engine is involved, he is mandated to get the airplane on the ground as SOON as practical. So holding is pretty much not an option.
Landing over weight isn’t a huge deal in itself, it just involves an inspection. Which inspection is dependent upon just how overweight the airplane is.
Much more eloquently posted than what I've been thinking.. and from more an expert (I assume). I was under the impression the 777 can fly for hours on one engine, seems 20 minutes to dump fuel, etc., like you posted above would have been prudent. Outside of the "think of the children" stuff and straw man some people are painting, it seems poorly executed. Being alive and on the ground is great, but it shouldn't be the only measure of a job well doneCome on, Greg... I respectfully disagree. You know as well as I do, absent maybe an inflight fire, there is nothing in a modern passenger aircraft that is going to cause you to have to do an immediate return to the airport. Especially not a engine with a compressor stall.
In my option, these guys rushed. You know that’s pretty much the cardinal sin in handling a problem in one of these aircraft. What’s the big rush? Go out over the water, hold, run the checklists, talk to the company, run the landing data, dump fuel if you need to, load the box, brief the approach, etc. THEN tell ATC you’re ready to come in. The fact these guys had to ask to be extended another three minutes before they can turn in should be a major red flag that they were rushing. Also, ATC asked them twice if they needed to go out and dump fuel, and both times they said no. Then on final they think it’s a good idea to start adjusting their gross weight?
You and I both know better than that.
I think that the cardinal sin would be not acting quickly enough.Come on, Greg... I respectfully disagree. You know as well as I do, absent maybe an inflight fire, there is nothing in a modern passenger aircraft that is going to cause you to have to do an immediate return to the airport. Especially not a engine with a compressor stall.
In my option, these guys rushed. You know that’s pretty much the cardinal sin in handling a problem in one of these aircraft. What’s the big rush? Go out over the water, hold, run the checklists, talk to the company, run the landing data, dump fuel if you need to, load the box, brief the approach, etc. THEN tell ATC you’re ready to come in. The fact these guys had to ask to be extended another three minutes before they can turn in should be a major red flag that they were rushing. Also, ATC asked them twice if they needed to go out and dump fuel, and both times they said no. Then on final they think it’s a good idea to start adjusting their gross weight?
You and I both know better than that.
No, it really isn’t. Like I said above, rushing usually creates more problems than it solves. For 90% of the airplane emergencies that an airline pilot is going to face, nothing has to be done immediately. In fact, we don’t even secure an engine fire until we’re at least at 1,000 feet. It just burns until we get there. We don’t even acknowledge the fact we have a fire, except for silencing the warning.I think that the cardinal sin would be not acting quickly enough.
Did they shutdown the affected engine? They were maintaining level flight on one engine? Why not hold and dump? Is SE “land as soon as possible” in the 777 at this weight?
If he was in a real hurry to get on the ground, he would not have accepted a routing to nearly over Chino before pointing back to LAX. The decision to dump fuel came late, the question is why.
Was the other engine running smoothly and normally? All indications normal? That will answer some questions I'd think.
Not only was the other engine running normally, according to their transmissions, the problematic engine was brought under control and the aircraft was under control.
And this leaves out the key thing - a 777 can be landed safely at MTOW, which they weren't at, in less than 6000' with a 5000' density altitude (They were landing in about a 100' density altitude). So what if they needed to do an overweight landing? The airplane is getting a major engine inspection anyway.
If he was in a real hurry to get on the ground, he would not have accepted a routing to nearly over Chino before pointing back to LAX. The decision to dump fuel came late, the question is why.
I think the wording is a bit gray in 121.565 and the 777 emergency procedures. “Nearest suitable airport” without delay?
If the plane was at MTOW, what would the SE go-around performance be like?
Taking a long final with an overweight, but under control airplane is a good move. The only really suitable airports for the airplane in the area were LAX and ONT. SBD has enough runway, as does LGB, but the proximity and orientation clearly made LAX the best choice. There's no question that they made the right decision as far as airport to land at. The problematic decision is low level fuel dumping over a massively populated area.
1) It wouldn't have been at MTOW, because it already burned fuel on departure.
2) Here's a link to a 777 emergency procedures checklist. It would be more than enough to go around at LAX on a 15 degree day. https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/b777/b777nonnormalprocedures.pdf
Not doubt it was the correct airport, but those who will be looking to point blame are going to bring up two important questions. 1) Does the emergency require going to that airport without delay and 2) Is dumping fuel part of the EP for that emergency.