Lax jet dumps fuel on school.

Velocity173 said:
Great, the qualification card always gets pulled anytime we criticize a professional pilot’s actions. Let’s make it a POA rule that if a member doesn’t have time in said incident / accident aircraft, they can’t post.:rolleyes:

I’ve been flying helicopters for hire for over 20 years and my actions deserve to be critiqued by anyone, with or without experience in helicopters. I welcome it and will give specific references for my actions if they come under fire. If you don’t have ammunition to back up your actions, you shouldn’t be flying for hire.


Granted, I’ve never flown anything that has a dump valve but I have flown with externals. If I were to have a compressor stall and needed to secure an engine, I just wouldn’t jettison tanks simply because I’m on one engine. That would be poor decision making and not IAW the checklist. 91.3 wouldn’t give me authority to override the checklist and make a poor decision either. 91.3 exists so that when meeting the needs of that emergency, you may not be able to adhere to the FARs. It’s not a get out of enforcement action free card. So, the question here is, did they use appropriate actions IAW company policy, checklists and good judgement? Still up in the air in my opinion...and hasn’t yet evaporated. :D
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No one cares about helicopter pilots;)
 
Tantalum said:
I mean.. mass hysteria and idiocy of the media aside, I don't think it's unreasonable to have some kind of prudence over where you dump fuel. That ought not be some outlandish or "extremist" request
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There’s another big aspect. Sitting in a cockpit when you think you need to throw a switch, you’ll throw it. You’re not sitting there thinking about the social media ramifications. You’re busy.

Adding it to some asinine half hour long checklist is another related problem. Maybe you have time to finish it, maybe you don’t.

And of course the question of whether anybody would even have figured out the airplane was dumping on final if the weather was at minimums and people didn’t see it or capture it on a cell phone camera or even made the connection for a week or more. Or a group of spotters that edit LiveATC audio hadn’t published it...

The Information Age is wonderful if you give the human monkeys time to think about the massive deluge of information. Emotional responses happen faster in our brains than rational ones. We are really bad about teaching that and even worse about regulating ourselves when the adrenaline dump happens.

“My child was ATTACKED!!! OMG. WTF! BBQ!!!”

Instincts built over thousands of years.
 
Tantalum said:
The "I have XXX thousands of hours" is such a dumb "I'm better than you" answer.. Hours means very little
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You’re right, hours don’t mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but when you have a private pilot that sits here and acts like they know more than everyone else and starts armchair quarterbacking the flight crews decisions as if they could have done a better job, is totally absurd!
 
When you have a compressor stall in an engine.
Is that any more dangerous than other engine failures?
Would flying on the left engine for an hour to burn fuel been more risky because the right engine had a compressor stall vs losing the fuel control unit?

Tim
 
Ryanb said:
You’re right, hours don’t mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but when you have a private pilot that sits here and acts like they know more than everyone else and starts armchair quarterbacking the flight crews decisions as if they could have done a better job, is totally absurd!

Safe to say most all of us scroll through the posts and are just thinking YGTBSM...
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Fair. I don't *think* that's aimed at me, but it is also the nature of these things for people to speculate and brainstorm

there's a balancing act in there somewhere waiting for the final findings to come out and letting the professionals do their work while also discussing an event and what may have happened and what was going through their minds
 
Tantalum said:
Fair. I don't *think* that's aimed at me, but it is also the nature of these things for people to speculate and brainstorm

there's a balancing act in there somewhere waiting for the final findings to come out and letting the professionals do their work while also discussing an event and what may have happened and what was going through their minds
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It is NOT aimed at you.

:)
 
jordane93 said:
Welcome to the dark side
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Nah. I’ve got the 1,500 hrs, I just lack a pulse.

I told you, I’m too old anyway. It’s a pride thing. I couldn’t sit right seat to someone that I’m old enough to be their dad. I’d be at Delta with you yelling at me “I said gear down, not fuel dump! Now look whatcha did gramps!”:)
 
Velocity173 said:
Nah. I’ve got the 1,500 hrs, I just lack a pulse.

I told you, I’m too old anyway. It’s a pride thing. I couldn’t sit right seat to someone that I’m old enough to be their dad. I’d be at Delta with you yelling at me “I said gear down, not fuel dump! Now look whatcha did gramps!”:)
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Werd. Single pilot or go home. Sport of Kings. :D
 
Larry in TN said:
Speaking of which, isn't it time for a new avatar?
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No it just reminds me that I need to get single engine current again! Haven’t read through Delta’s policies for outside flying but I think I’m going to lay low until I’m at least off of probation.
 
Velocity173 said:
Nah. I’ve got the 1,500 hrs, I just lack a pulse.

I told you, I’m too old anyway. It’s a pride thing. I couldn’t sit right seat to someone that I’m old enough to be their dad. I’d be at Delta with you yelling at me “I said gear down, not fuel dump! Now look whatcha did gramps!”:)
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Come to Endeavor. I’ll be a good guy and split the referral bonus with you lol!
 
jordane93 said:
No it just reminds me that I need to get single engine current again! Haven’t read through Delta’s policies for outside flying but I think I’m going to lay low until I’m at least off of probation.
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They won’t care about you putsying around in a Cessna for a couple of hours. It won’t count against your 121 gig.
 
jordane93 said:
No it just reminds me that I need to get single engine current again! Haven’t read through Delta’s policies for outside flying but I think I’m going to lay low until I’m at least off of probation.
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Why would they care about single engine? I suppose as long as you didn't do it for hire (pay passengers or teaching).
 
Does it involve squatting and fainting?
 
Ryanb said:
You’re right, hours don’t mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but when you have a private pilot that sits here and acts like they know more than everyone else and starts armchair quarterbacking the flight crews decisions as if they could have done a better job, is totally absurd!
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I disagree with part of what you said. Total hours do mean something.
Tantalum said:
The "I have XXX thousands of hours" is such a dumb "I'm better than you" answer.. Hours means very little, as has been discussed here ad nauseum, and as accidents will prove that people with 100 hrs crash, and people with 20,000 hrs crash, often for stupid things like leaving a control lock in

It's usually career pilots that pull the card too, as some kind of "I'm right by default because I've sat in a plane for more hours than you".. and 5,000 hrs sitting at 40K ft on autopilot with another pilot is a whole different set of experience than someone with 1,000 hrs flying by him/herself at night in a beat up chieftain on some low rent cargo op
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i respectfully disagree with much of your statement.
Airline flying (usually much more than 5,000 hours) is not about stick & rudder, but rather seeing many different situations and the decision making that goes with it.
I’m not saying the dude that opted to dump fuel made the correct decision.
My statement is a generality.
 
Would be interesting to see what the landing numbers in the books worked out to be. If they took off at max, they would have had to reduce their weight by nearly 100 tons to get to max landing weight. Couple that with a projected landing speed of 157 kts and on a 12,900 foot runway, could the numbers have projected running off the runway?
 
Kritchlow said:
I disagree with part of what you said. Total hours do mean something.

i respectfully disagree with much of your statement.
Airline flying (usually much more than 5,000 hours) is not about stick & rudder, but rather seeing many different situations and the decision making that goes with it.
I’m not saying the dude that opted to dump fuel made the correct decision.
My statement is a generality.
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To me it seems like in general I’d give maybe more credence to an airline pilot with many hours when the subject is...airline issues, and maybe the GA pilot a little more when the subject is GA, stick and rudder.
Of course, some commercial pilots also fly GA, and anyway tend to weigh the actual content with that in mind, but a good logical point seems valid no matter where it comes from.

Something like this, I believe airline pilots are likely pretty well versed in their procedures and issues.

I still don’t know if it was (as the first report I read of the incident) if it was mostly odor they reacted to, if they had a slight mist of fuel, or if they were drenched in it. When there is talk of landing weight, like someone else here upstream, wondering if that holds when one engine is not performing. I sure don’t know what viable other options they had available.

In the US, what actually happens when an incident such as this occurs? There have been train accidents where chemicals were dispersed near towns, refinery accidents where people (including children of course) are exposed to toxic chemicals. Compared to that this doesn’t seem so far to be that dangerous. It’s not good, and this is a chance maybe for the FAA or other regulatory agencies to refine the regs?

It doesn’t seem like it needed to happen, that it could have been handled differently (which is where this discussion is heating up) but I don’t know all the details and don’t think any of us do, until investigation hears from the pilots. We don’t have all details of the situation.

As some may recall, a few years ago through a hotels negligence I got a face and lung full of am deadly ammonia gas that was 99.9% pure ammonia. It had collected in the minibar which uses it instead of Freon, etc. for cooling and had been leaking and collected in the minibar inside. It burned in my lungs and eyes, I literally thought li was going to dies and several minutes where I could not breath, followed by awful wrenching, and coughing, etc.

The odor was apparent before the incident, and housekeeping should have reacted, but we thought they used it for cleaning, the little that was leaking into our room. I stupidly didn’t demand an ambulance, and they kind of pushed me in that direction. The manager was very unapologetic, and the effects I felt for months after. I’m still not sure if it did real damage.

I contacted an Italian lawyer, who said if I couldn’t prove actual damage, medically, there was no case. Apparently Italian law doesn’t concern itself with the actual panic and discomfort, the sheer terror of feeling you are going to die, and unpleasant effects. Or else he was a crap lawyer. Wasn’t looking to sue for millions, but rejected the only offer of 100 euros, not even ONE nights stay in their crap hotel.

I think that sucks, but then too, if the result was enduring an odor, I’m not seeing how huge payments would be in order. But I don’t know.

By the way, if you are ever in a hotel room, or other place with a mini fridge and you smell a whiff of ammonia, get the hell out of there and call management!

But just to show it isn’t just POA that have a wide range of opinions, when I went to my regular doctor after the incident, and had been experiencing much more shortness of breath, she actually said “well, I don’t think it is that dangerous or they wouldn’t use it in hotels”. Jesus... again 99.9% pure ammonia is used, buildings get evacuated with lesser quantities and concentrations. It’s known to be deadly in concentration, and EMT folk react (I was in shock and made the dumb mistake of not insisting on an ambulance) but some like my doctor aren’t even aware of its danger.

as a young man, working in a lumber yard, I cut asbestos sheets with a table saw for the place I was working. I didn’t know how bad that was (even in the early seventies, my boss did though) and I wish I had known and refused...but now I’d there is a tennis ball clump of it on a roadside, you get teams with hazmat suits closing off highways and treating it like plutonium, or PCB, etc, seems like we swing wildly from one extreme to another. Where some are “I used to bathe in the stuff” and others freak out with a droplet of some substance. No middle ground anymore,
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
They won’t care about you putsying around in a Cessna for a couple of hours. It won’t count against your 121 gig.
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Well I still do some part 91 flying with my flight school that’s approved through my current company. Not sure if DL will approve that. I usually don’t rent. When I fly, I’m getting paid for it.
 
jordane93 said:
Well I still do some part 91 flying with my flight school that’s approved through my current company. Not sure if DL will approve that. I usually don’t rent. When I fly, I’m getting paid for it.
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Our FOM strictly prohibits outside commercial flying, without written permission of the VP of Flight Ops. This is because any commercial flying counts towards your flight time limits in part 121 (121.489) and I'm sure the company wouldn't be happy to have to pull you off a trip because you tell them that you're going to exceed limits because of outside flying.

This, of course, doesn't preclude you from putting around Part 91 in a GA aircraft.
 
jordane93 said:
Well I still do some part 91 flying with my flight school that’s approved through my current company. Not sure if DL will approve that. I usually don’t rent. When I fly, I’m getting paid for it.
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Take a good look at FAR part 117. That is what covers this. I think it is much more liberal with outside commercial flying than it used to be under 121. But then again, company policy might prohibit outside commercial flying altogether, although I know that United does not.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Our FOM strictly prohibits outside commercial flying, without written permission of the VP of Flight Ops. This is because any commercial flying counts towards your flight time limits in part 121 (121.489) and I'm sure the company wouldn't be happy to have to pull you off a trip because you tell them that you're going to exceed limits because of outside flying.

This, of course, doesn't preclude you from putting around Part 91 in a GA aircraft.
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Greg Bockelman said:
Take a good look at FAR part 117. That is what covers this. I think it is much more liberal with outside commercial flying than it used to be under 121. But then again, company policy might prohibit outside commercial flying altogether, although I know that United does not.
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Yea I never let it interfere with my duty limits. I get paid less at the flight school and I only really do it when they are desperate and don’t have anyone else. We can do outside commercial flying with written permission from a chief pilot. Delta actually asked me about this during my interview. Basically they asked how I’m able to split time and focus doing both. I maybe fly 5 hours a month doing 91 stuff but that’s even on busy months. I haven’t touched a GA plane since July. Looking back at my logbook, I only did 26 hours this year doing the 91 flights so I’m never in danger of exceeding limitations.
 
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PaulS said:
Why would they care about single engine? I suppose as long as you didn't do it for hire (pay passengers or teaching).
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Some airlines don’t allow outside commercial flying because it could interfere with 121 duty limits. They don’t want you flying for another company and have you not available for 121 flying when needed. This doesn’t include just renting a 172 and buzzing the beach. You can do that all day.
 
Californians: “The spawn of my loins has been defiled by dangerous chemicals from an evil corporation!!”

* Bhopal, India has entered the chat. *
 
hindsight2020 said:
Werd. Single pilot or go home. Sport of Kings. :D
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You're too young to adopt that attitude, especially since you get to pass go and skip the regionals. Put your ego aside and come chase the money and schedule like the rest of us lazy bums! :p

Feel free to wear your flight suit and helmet while you single pilot your Extra. ;)
 
kayoh190 said:
You're too young to adopt that attitude, especially since you get to pass go and skip the regionals. Put your ego aside and come chase the money and schedule like the rest of us lazy bums! :p

Feel free to wear your flight suit and helmet while you single pilot your Extra. ;)
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Now would Chuck Yeager go to the airlines? For you younger folk, would “Snort” Snodgrass go to the airlines? **** no! Single pilot for life! :D
 
I won't comment about this incident because I don't know anything about the circumstances nor the procedures that might be followed.

But it would be cool if they could dump and burn like the F-111 could- it would make a great show.

90289_1447578669.jpg
 
Yeager's chase pilot, Bob hoover who should have flown the historical flight that gave Chuck his fame, was not dedicated to single engine, nor adverse to sharing the duties in his twin. No reason to belittle the guys who share the flying duties, voluntarily, or otherwise.

I believe Bob is the finest pilot whom I have had the pleasure of having a conversation with. We shared connection through the infamous test he failed. I had also taken it, with no adverse effects for my flying future, but the conditions of my taking it were very different. It is very hard if you are not into video type games. He had not had interest in such games, which biased the test against him.
 
Media report:

A Delta flight purposefully dumped fuel all over a school full of poor innocent children today. We do not have any pictures of actual children being actually injured but here is an artist's conception of what it likely looked liked:

Screenshot_20200117-143153_Firefox.jpg
 
smv said:
Media report:

A Delta flight purposefully dumped fuel all over a school full of poor innocent children today. We do not have any pictures of actual children being actually injured but here is an artist's conception of what it likely looked liked:

View attachment 82014
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"I love the smell of Jet-A in the morning..."
 
jordane93 said:
Some airlines don’t allow outside commercial flying because it could interfere with 121 duty limits. They don’t want you flying for another company and have you not available for 121 flying when needed. This doesn’t include just renting a 172 and buzzing the beach. You can do that all day.
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I asked about flying for Drakken when I was a new hire at DAL and they said no. After you get off probation is definitely the right time to ask, just cruise for now. After probation your chances of a yes are WAY higher. (welcome to DAL if I didn't say that before!)
 
EvilEagle said:
I asked about flying for Drakken when I was a new hire at DAL and they said no. After you get off probation is definitely the right time to ask, just cruise for now. After probation your chances of a yes are WAY higher. (welcome to DAL if I didn't say that before!)
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I was looking through the current Combat Aircraft mag last week and there’s a pic of an old friend of mine with Draken A-4s. He’s full time with them. I guess they’ve got F-1s coming online as well. Sounds like all these contractor aggressor / JTAC companies just signed huge DOD contracts. He should have steady employment with Draken for a long time to come.
 
Yeah man, Drakken is rolling really well now. They've asked if I'm coming back. I think the siren song of piston warbirds is going to keep me out of the red air business, but you never know.
 
EvilEagle said:
I asked about flying for Drakken when I was a new hire at DAL and they said no. After you get off probation is definitely the right time to ask, just cruise for now. After probation your chances of a yes are WAY higher. (welcome to DAL if I didn't say that before!)
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Yea I’m going to take it easy the first year then see what happens. Thanks man! I’m sure I’ll run into you in NYC at some point.
 
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