Lance air down short of 36 OSH

SoonerAviator said:
I don't think we have all of the facts, so it's a bit difficult to cast stones just yet. There may have been plenty of spacing to handle things just as it was being handled. If the Lancair was handling their business this would all be a moot point. I'm sure the accident chain will sort out most of what occurred and if the L39 arrival had anything material to do with it.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Handle your business. Everything else is secondary.
 
The year I went, was widely discussed on the Lancair forums to use the Warbird arrival.
(may have changed)
Made good sense, traffic was sparse.
 
kmacht said:
I have gone to Osh at least a dozen times but have only flown in once. I highly recommend driving there instead and camping if possible. You can pack up the car with all sorts of stuff to make your stay comfortable (chairs, coolers, fans, cots, etc). It's usually only hot during mid day. The mornings are comfortable and the evenings can get cool enough you may need a sweatshirt or blanket while watching a movie at the fly in theater or listening to a speaker.

If tent camping isn't your thing there are many companies that will setup and rent you anything from a small popup camper to a full on RV with AC and a bathroom. Camping at Osh isn't like most other places. They have great facilities with showers, toilets, a grocery store, etc. With a car you can also get to many places around the show for breakfast or dinner or go just a little north to Appleton to get away from the show for a bit.

Outside the show you can also rent a dorm room with or without AC for the week. Many locals also rent out their houses for the week and it's not uncommon to find a number of other pilots willing to split the cost in exchange for a room. Don't let not wanting to fly in keep you from experiencing all the great things that go on at the show. It's a blast no matter how you get there.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it would be a long drive from Vancouver BC. My plan would be fly in, rent an RV with AC... would be nice to have a cool place to retreat to. Did I mention I hate the heat!
 
I listened to the ATC on the vas yt video. I wonder if the right turn instruction confused him and maybe got him distracted. He didn't make much of a right turn and ended up on an odd angle on 'sort of' base leg...

I wonder if the controller expected him to fly a square pattern where he turned right to downwind leg of the left pattern(to set up for 90 degree left turn to base when called later).
 
The jet passes weren't low altitude over the runway, they were above the planes landing and the jets did a break to the right to enter the pattern. They do that all day long. The Lancair track does show a move that could bite when you are saturated with trying to land, it seems from the track like an aggressive turn when low and slow.
 
AV8R_87 said:
When you have more than one instance of sequencing an aircraft into the wake turbulence of another, something needs to be tweaked in the arrival process.
Click to expand...
You keep mentioning wake like it was an issue here. Wake from an L39 is nothing the thing weighs less than a lot of piston twins, I used to fly at an airport with an examiner for them and took off and landed right behind them all the time. Not an issue in a pa28 definitely not an issue in a lancair.
 
#1 - there were two L-39s and an L-29, in formation. They are also turbojets, so you have three additional sources of airflow interference.

#2 - how close did you fly to them?
Here's the ADS-B tracks, the accident plane got there 10-15 seconds after the three jets. I doubt you got that close.

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history
globe.adsbexchange.com globe.adsbexchange.com

It doesn't take much to destabilize a slow plane making a base to final turn, and here you have three jets going at 150 kts, 300 feet above him, no more than 600 feet to the right (no idea how the formation was spaced and the track only shows one aircraft), turning and throwing their exhaust and wake turbulence in the path of the accident aircraft. Even if the wake turbulence didn't directly cause it, the extremely tight spacing provided by the controller is still unacceptable, especially with the aircraft involved.

1721853242385.png
 
AV8R_87 said:
#1 - there were two L-39s and an L-29, in formation. They are also turbojets, so you have three additional sources of airflow interference.

#2 - how close did you fly to them?
Here's the ADS-B tracks, the accident plane got there 10-15 seconds after the three jets. I doubt you got that close.

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history
globe.adsbexchange.com globe.adsbexchange.com

It doesn't take much to destabilize a slow plane making a base to final turn, and here you have three jets going at 150 kts, 300 feet above him, no more than 600 feet to the right (no idea how the formation was spaced and the track only shows one aircraft), turning and throwing their exhaust and wake turbulence in the path of the accident aircraft. Even if the wake turbulence didn't directly cause it, the extremely tight spacing provided by the controller is still unacceptable, especially with the aircraft involved.

View attachment 131730
Click to expand...
Let’s keep it in perspective. Those controllers are some of the best in the world and handle thousands of aircraft all converging on a single airport at the same time one week a year. Maybe they should have created better spacing with the jets and maybe a fly by was someones bad idea but if the cause of the accident is because the plane got too slow to handle the conditions it was in then that’s on the pilot. They could have gone around at any time.
 
AV8R_87 said:
View attachment 131730
Click to expand...

Can anything be safely deduced (as an approximation), about bank angle from the attached image?
I see about a 90 degree left turn over 15 seconds starting at 17:13:30, yes?
(I realize it requires averaging, when the incident might only involve the last few seconds, and yes we can see the rate of turn appears higher at :57 in the image - I was just curious if bank angle can be deduced from such an image.)

Edit
Using this calculator and 100mph/60mph/30deg bank angle I get 90 degree turn over 12 seconds.
Nothing terrible there.

Aircraft Turn Information Calculator

Approximates details of a turning plane, including tail speed and turn radius, given speed and bank angle.
www.csgnetwork.com
 
Last edited:
kmacht said:
Let’s keep it in perspective. Those controllers are some of the best in the world and handle thousands of aircraft all converging on a single airport at the same time one week a year. Maybe they should have created better spacing with the jets and maybe a fly by was someones bad idea but if the cause of the accident is because the plane got too slow to handle the conditions it was in then that’s on the pilot. They could have gone around at any time.
Click to expand...
Huh?

I’ve not flown in to osh, so I’d love to hear opinions, but the arrival at sun n fun is pretty much up to the pilots to do it safely. The controllers have very little “control” of the situation.
 
OSH controls things a bit more, they will actually micromanage your base/final turns sometimes. Yes, pilot has the final word on it, but they'll put you in tighter spots than SnF.

kmacht said:
They could have gone around at any time.
Click to expand...
Go around where? On the opposing base for 36R? I'm still not convinced this was caused by them allowing their speed to drop. The (limited) data available from ADS-B indicates a constant speed with no decreasing trend. I've looked at some of his past flights where there were similar speeds and turn radii. He seemed more than capable to control the plane.

I'm still thinking the close proximity of the three jets had someyhing to do with it.
36L and 36R are 500 feet apart. They had the three jets sequenced 15 seconds and 500 feet apart from him. And we still don't know where the other two jets were in relation to the one with ADS-B out. That spacing could've been less.
 
AV8R_87 said:
OSH controls things a bit more, they will actually micromanage your base/final turns sometimes. Yes, pilot has the final word on it, but they'll put you in tighter spots than SnF.
Click to expand...
They do that at sun n fun too, but it’s not doing a whole lot for spacing until the last minute. It’s up to the pilots further out.
 
Adsb ain’t gonna keep up with how fast you can lose speed in that thing…

Delta pilot bud of mine thinks it was a delta guy… so a capable professional… complete with the normal, there but by the grace of God go I.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top