Improper Sale of an Airplane?

gmanrider9

gmanrider9

Filing Flight Plan
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gmanrider9
Hello all,
My business partner and I recently bought and sold an airplane for an good profit. Trouble is, we were recently let go by our employer because of how they perceived the transaction. So I am hoping some people that know better than me can help me understand what went wrong. Here is the story:

This aircraft was sold by back in 2013 by the last registered owner whom is now deceased. The perspective buyer who bought the aircraft failed to put his address on the aircraft registration form so the FAA never recorded the registration application. The last RO and the buyer began fighting over who the actual owner was, as the buyer ended up not wanting the aircraft. Long story short, nether one of them did any MX on the airplane and it ended up sitting for 7 years on a MX ramp in ownership limbo whom also possessed the logbooks. Jump to 2018 and the aircraft was deregistered due to expired registration. Jump to 2023. My partner and I found the aircraft and contacted the last RO's heir at law and the prospective buyer. Both of whom stated they wanted nothing to do with the airplane. Operating on this information, we offered to buy the aircraft from the RO's Heir at Law who accepted our offer. We sent over a bill of sale and heir at law form which she signed. My partner and I then re-registered the airplane in our names which the FAA accepted and recorded. We also bought the logbooks from the MX shop for unpaid MX costs still owed on the airplane. A few months later we sold the airplane to a new owner who intended to fix it up. Our employer caught wind of this transaction and terminated our employment while stating that the transaction was illegal, as we bought and sold the airplane from the wrong owner. Is this true? The FAA never recorded the sale in 2013. We did run an Aircraft title search which showed the current RO and N/A. It did mention the sale in 2013 but that no mailing address was furnished and the aircraft registration was unrecorded. If it is true what potentially could happen? Please help me understand what went wrong. No harm or criminal action was ever intended. Thanks in advance!
 
I'm not sure why your former employer is up in arms about the transaction unless the 2013 buyer was taking legal action. My only question would be, did the 2013 buyer and RO at the time execute a purchase agreement and did money exchange hands? I'm super confused why the 2013 buyer would not have fixed the registration paperwork if they were still claiming ownership, even if they didn't want to fly/own the airplane now. If they were out money, any reasonable person would assume they'd need to clear up the transaction record before they could turn around and recoup that by selling.
 
Why would your employer know or care about your business dealings outside the scope of your employment? Do they also scrutinize the process when employees buy or sell houses, boats, or cakes at the church bake sale?
 
Half Fast said:
What on earth does your employer have to do with all this?
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Jim_R said:
Why would your employer know or care about your business dealings outside the scope of your employment? Do they also scrutinize the process when employees buy or sell houses, boats, or cakes at the church bake sale?
Click to expand...

I think I was assuming that he and his "partner" worked for a broker. Otherwise, yeah this whole thing makes even less sense.
 
I hope this guy responds or we’ll have to start filling in the blanks ourselves
 
The big problem I see is the heir and the buyer just stating they wanted nothing to do with the airplane. There should have been written agreements of this transaction and there should have been a lawyer involved so it was done totally legally for the state in which the plane was located.

There are employers who think any business related idea their employees have belong to them. If the OP worked in an aviation business, that was probably more the issue than the alleged dishonesty.
 
gmanrider9 said:
Hello all,
My business partner and I recently bought and sold an airplane for an good profit. Trouble is, we were recently let go by our employer because of how they perceived the transaction. So I am hoping some people that know better than me can help me understand what went wrong. Here is the story:

This aircraft was sold by back in 2013 by the last registered owner whom is now deceased. The perspective buyer who bought the aircraft failed to put his address on the aircraft registration form so the FAA never recorded the registration application. The last RO and the buyer began fighting over who the actual owner was, as the buyer ended up not wanting the aircraft. Long story short, nether one of them did any MX on the airplane and it ended up sitting for 7 years on a MX ramp in ownership limbo whom also possessed the logbooks. Jump to 2018 and the aircraft was deregistered due to expired registration. Jump to 2023. My partner and I found the aircraft and contacted the last RO's heir at law and the prospective buyer. Both of whom stated they wanted nothing to do with the airplane. Operating on this information, we offered to buy the aircraft from the RO's Heir at Law who accepted our offer. We sent over a bill of sale and heir at law form which she signed. My partner and I then re-registered the airplane in our names which the FAA accepted and recorded. We also bought the logbooks from the MX shop for unpaid MX costs still owed on the airplane. A few months later we sold the airplane to a new owner who intended to fix it up. Our employer caught wind of this transaction and terminated our employment while stating that the transaction was illegal, as we bought and sold the airplane from the wrong owner. Is this true? The FAA never recorded the sale in 2013. We did run an Aircraft title search which showed the current RO and N/A. It did mention the sale in 2013 but that no mailing address was furnished and the aircraft registration was unrecorded. If it is true what potentially could happen? Please help me understand what went wrong. No harm or criminal action was ever intended. Thanks in advance!
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What do you and your partner do for a living? Is your employer worried about some kind of legal jeopardy? Or is it about some moral issue?
 
So without going into to much detail. My business partner and I were airport admin/ Operations at the airfield where the aircraft was located. A fellow co worker reported him and I for violating conflict of intrest rules. I think it's more moral than legal at this point but I really don't know why they would throw the word legal around. No one is taking any legal action. But they want to pass all of this along to law enforcement for them to investigate further. No fowl play. Nothing of that nature. It's all very confusing.
 
Some of my favorite forum threads are the streams of replies to a person with only ONE (1) post. We all gotten suckered-in by one posters. I have.

The really awesome trolls are the one's who come back to spin the nonsense wheel once or twice more to watch everyone run around it like gerbils.
 
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gmanrider9 said:
…Trouble is, we were recently let go by our employer because of how they perceived the transaction.…
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Whose trouble is it?

If you can successfully make a profit in the aircraft flipping business, you should be the employer, not the employee.
 
Last edited:
gmanrider9 said:
Hello all,
My business partner and I recently bought and sold an airplane for an good profit. Trouble is, we were recently let go by our employer because of how they perceived the transaction. So I am hoping some people that know better than me can help me understand what went wrong. Here is the story:

This aircraft was sold by back in 2013 by the last registered owner whom is now deceased. The perspective buyer who bought the aircraft failed to put his address on the aircraft registration form so the FAA never recorded the registration application. The last RO and the buyer began fighting over who the actual owner was, as the buyer ended up not wanting the aircraft. Long story short, nether one of them did any MX on the airplane and it ended up sitting for 7 years on a MX ramp in ownership limbo whom also possessed the logbooks. Jump to 2018 and the aircraft was deregistered due to expired registration. Jump to 2023. My partner and I found the aircraft and contacted the last RO's heir at law and the prospective buyer. Both of whom stated they wanted nothing to do with the airplane. Operating on this information, we offered to buy the aircraft from the RO's Heir at Law who accepted our offer. We sent over a bill of sale and heir at law form which she signed. My partner and I then re-registered the airplane in our names which the FAA accepted and recorded. We also bought the logbooks from the MX shop for unpaid MX costs still owed on the airplane. A few months later we sold the airplane to a new owner who intended to fix it up. Our employer caught wind of this transaction and terminated our employment while stating that the transaction was illegal, as we bought and sold the airplane from the wrong owner. Is this true? The FAA never recorded the sale in 2013. We did run an Aircraft title search which showed the current RO and N/A. It did mention the sale in 2013 but that no mailing address was furnished and the aircraft registration was unrecorded. If it is true what potentially could happen? Please help me understand what went wrong. No harm or criminal action was ever intended. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
>>>>>>

This aircraft was sold by back in 2013 by the last registered owner whom is now deceased. The perspective buyer who bought the aircraft failed to put his address on the aircraft registration form so the FAA never recorded the registration application.<<<<<<<<

Having bought and sold my airplane the dots are not connecting. The FAA is NOT going to throw out an improperly filled out registration form. They are going to contact the person who failed to put their address on the registration form and advise them to refile a correctly filled out registration form. Your story reads like someone felt they were screwed and are trying to go after everyone involved. I guess what I am trying to say "There is more to your story".
 
From what I believe, the FAA has nothing to do with aircraft ownership rights, they only process the registration documents (and if those documents are filled out to FAA standards). So you could have registration for an aircraft that you technically don’t own. It’s up to the courts? for an owner to file case to determine ownership. I’m also guessing many transactions are cash so the ownership is “thought” to be the FAA registration history and it’s up to the buyer/seller to make their own mental story of who they think the owner is, and to proceed or not to thereafter. I’m not sure if banks dig any further when lending on aircraft either.
 
mandm said:
From what I believe, the FAA has nothing to do with aircraft ownership rights, they only process the registration documents (and if those documents are filled out to FAA standards)
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In this case, belief fits with reality for the most part. But the FAA also looks at the chain of ownership as reflected in their records, so it's not quite as simple as the buyer and seller "make their own mental story of who they think the owner is."
 
midlifeflyer said:
In this case, belief fits with reality for the most part. But the FAA also looks at the chain of ownership as reflected in their records, so it's not quite as simple as the buyer and seller "make their own mental story of who they think the owner is."
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I think title docs for a car are more solid proof vs aircraft registration?
 
gmanrider9 said:
So without going into to much detail.
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Too late.
gmanrider9 said:
My business partner and I were airport admin/ Operations at the airfield where the aircraft was located. A fellow co worker reported him and I for violating conflict of intrest rules. I think it's more moral than legal at this point but I really don't know why they would throw the word legal around. No one is taking any legal action. But they want to pass all of this along to law enforcement for them to investigate further. No fowl play. Nothing of that nature. It's all very confusing.
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The FAA should have wanted to see Letters Testamentary or other Surrogate's Court papers attesting to the Next of Kin's rights to sign for the registered owner.

The 2013 buyer, having never been recorded as owner by the FAA, would have -- at best -- an equitable interest in the aircraft if they gave the seller money for it. Because title was never transferred into their name, they had no interest. It's nice that you got them to give you an ersatz quit claim deed of whatever interest they might have held, but from the FAA's POV, "Who the hell are you?" (That question would have been answered by a Bill of Sale from the "RO" to them, but they are now out of the picture.)

Perhaps you need to sue your (former?) employer. Conflict of Interest? That would have required you to owe them a duty of loyalty that was violated by what they claim you did. What interest does the airport have in an unairworthy bastard child of an aircraft rotting on its ramp? If tie down fees were going unpaid and got cleared up via the sale, you did them a favor and should have negotiated a commission. Most airports are owned and operated by municipalities, making you a government employee. Usually not too easy to fire one of those, even for doing far worse that what you say you've done.

Of course -- none of this is legal advice, and should not be relied upon -- at least because we have no idea what state any this is taking place in (other than "Confusion").
 
You work for the airport where the airplane is based/located? It sounds like your employer thinks you were "trading" on "inside" information that you learned as a result of your work at the airport (the conflict issue) and/or they think you're essentially abusing airport tenants.
 
mandm said:
I think title docs for a car are more solid proof vs aircraft registration?
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Car titles are "titles" - evidence of ownership. FAA Registry records are not. But the FAA will still look at its own records and reject applications which don't reflect ownership as shown in them. You mentioned documents being "filled out to FAA standards." That includes questions like "is the seller the same person/entity who owns the aircraft according to our records?" Many applications for registration are rejected exactly for this reason, although it's usually simple user error.

In simplest terms, if the aircraft is currently registered to "Joe Blow LLC, Joe Blow, Member" and the Bill of Sale is from "Joe Blow, Owner," the FAA will reject it because according to the FAA's records, Joe Blow the human doesn't own it.
 
Good for you for making money off a ramp rat and returning it to flight.
 
www.usa.gov

Wrongful termination | USAGov

Wrongful termination happens when your employer fires you for an illegal reason. Learn what qualifies as wrongful discharge and the actions you can take.
www.usa.gov www.usa.gov

also, research your state's rules.
 
Barron - is that you?!?

www.pilotsofamerica.com

Verdict Against Barron Thomas

This was reported in VerdictSearch February 25th: Plaintiffs claimed defendant was running a Ponzi scheme Amount: $867,880.2 Type: Decision-Plaintiff State: Texas Venue: Dallas County Case Type: Fraud - Case Name: Ken and Martha Zeiler, Joe Zeiler, and the Estate of Mary Mabry v...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
So here's a good story - original owner sold airplane to buyer who ended up discovering it needed waaaayyyy more mx work than he anticipated and went after the original owner, who tried to tell potential buyer, "sucks to be you, sucker" and only refunded a partial piece or none of the purchase price. The buyer never "took possession" because he didn't want there to be legal record of his ownership of said plane so he could sue previous owner for the money he paid him for a plane that had all sorts of undisclosed maintenance issues with it.

It sat for several years - maybe the previous owner died with everything still in limbo, maybe the potential buyer murdered previous owner and stole his money back, maybe buyer ran out of cash for a lawyer, who knows - but it sat long enough that people kinda forgot about it. Unbeknownst to our OP, however, the airport manager was the best buds of the potential buyer and was holding the plane there until he came back from Tibet to claim it for pennies once the estate settled.

And then along comes OP, and up and claims the abandoned plane and sells it. And for a profit, nonetheless! It's all very insulting, so airport manager fires the OP and the partner for "insider trading". And here we are. Feel free to tweak and change the story to better fit the OP's story as the extra details come trickling in. :cool: :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
The sad fact is, there are many reasons why an employer is NOT allowed to fire you over. This isn't one of them.
 
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