Improper Sale of an Airplane?

gmanrider9 said:
... My partner and I found the aircraft and contacted the last RO's heir at law and the prospective buyer. ...
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gmanrider9 said:
So without going into to much detail. My business partner and I were airport admin/ Operations at the airfield where the aircraft was located. A fellow co worker reported him and I for violating conflict of intrest rules. ...
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Is this a public airport? Are you a government employee? Did you take advantage of information not available to the general public (or to a knowledgeable, inquiring public)? Or violate a privacy policy perhaps? That's where I could see you getting yourself in trouble. It sounds like no money ever changed hands between the original seller and buyer; is that correct? Hard to believe both sides saying they didn't want anything to do with the plane if money had changed hands, or was owed. But too little info to give us confidence in your story. Have a tail number or model and S/N you can share?
 
SkyChaser said:
So here's a good story - original owner sold airplane to buyer who ended up discovering it needed waaaayyyy more mx work than he anticipated and went after the original owner, who tried to tell potential buyer, "sucks to be you, sucker" and only refunded a partial piece or none of the purchase price. The buyer never "took possession" because he didn't want there to be legal record of his ownership of said plane so he could sue previous owner for the money he paid him for a plane that had all sorts of undisclosed maintenance issues with it.

It sat for several years - maybe the previous owner died with everything still in limbo, maybe the potential buyer murdered previous owner and stole his money back, maybe buyer ran out of cash for a lawyer, who knows - but it sat long enough that people kinda forgot about it. Unbeknownst to our OP, however, the airport manager was the best buds of the potential buyer and was holding the plane there until he came back from Tibet to claim it for pennies once the estate settled.

And then along comes OP, and up and claims the abandoned plane and sells it. And for a profit, nonetheless! It's all very insulting, so airport manager fires the OP and the partner for "insider trading". And here we are. Feel free to tweak and change the story to better fit the OP's story as the extra details come trickling in. :cool: :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
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Best part is Airport Director and Deputy Director were fired a month or two before I was.
 
krudawg said:
>>>>>>

This aircraft was sold by back in 2013 by the last registered owner whom is now deceased. The perspective buyer who bought the aircraft failed to put his address on the aircraft registration form so the FAA never recorded the registration application.<<<<<<<<

Having bought and sold my airplane the dots are not connecting. The FAA is NOT going to throw out an improperly filled out registration form. They are going to contact the person who failed to put their address on the registration form and advise them to refile a correctly filled out registration form. Your story reads like someone felt they were screwed and are trying to go after everyone involved. I guess what I am trying to say "There is more to your story".
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If I had more I would give it. But that is the story. Never said the FAA threw it out but when the title check came back, it was stated that the sale was reported but the registration application was never recorded.
 
midlifeflyer said:
LOL! Now there's a "made s#$t up" "tell." String a couple of legal sounding terms together for a story without understanding them. Accidentally use one correctly and the then change it when challenged :D
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Lol it's not made up. Why would I get on here and make up this story? What possible benefit do I get out of that? I'm not a broker or an aviation lawyer so excuse me if I don't remember exactly what document was passed along.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've watched a lot of "sovereign citizens" do that on YouTube. It never ends well! :lol:
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They seem funny but there was a serious side. I represented banks during the recession. There were people who lost everything in foreclosures who lashed out by suing everyone. Banks, foreclosure trustees in deed of trust states, city clerks, the lawyers who defended them, and sometimes the judges and magistrates who threw their cases out. They filed multi-page complaints pro se that threw together all sorts of doctrines and legalisms and were barely readable. Sometimes it was heartbreaking.
 
gmanrider9 said:
Lol it's not made up. Why would I get on here and make up this story? What possible benefit do I get out of that? I'm not a broker or an aviation lawyer so excuse me if I don't remember exactly what document was passed along.
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I dunno. Maybe someone who would refer to “heir at law” properly and change it to “her in law” as soon as someone asked what it meant?
 
When I purchased a Cessna that had been rotting on the ramp for 20 years, the airport/city did not seem to know how to handle the past due fees. I kept getting answers like maybe we will do this or that. Eventually I quit asking when I heard the most favorable maybe and just hauled it home. I could see airport employees in that situation being involved in a conflict of interest.

Or given the recent leadership changes, the airport was looking for further culture change.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I dunno. Maybe someone who would refer to “heir at law” properly and change it to “her in law” as soon as someone asked what it meant?
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I took that to be someone who used “heir at law” because that’s what he had been seeing over and over, got asked about if he meant “heir in law” here, and tried to switch to “heir in law” but made a typo and/or had some inverse help from autocorrect. Anyone who has tried to write legalese on an iPhone has run into the latter.

I’m suspicious about the other side of the story here, but I don’t think we can conclude that it’s an outright fabrication just because of writing style and knowledge of legal terms. I think it’s within the realm of possibility that someone with 1 fluid ounce of power in the world was upset about an airplane transaction and used that entire ounce to act out a personal grudge. I’ve seen that happen in every context where small people are given small powers.

But that doesn’t mean a person is exempt from the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. Corollary #1: Don’t tick off your boss.
 
gmanrider9 said:
My business partner and I were airport admin/ Operations ... violating conflict of interest ...
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This explains the employer's actions. Most likely your EE handbook or policy letters contain COI conduct guidance that you violated.
I understand their perspective. Having employees running side gigs from their facility can create all kinds of issues. Likely there is also a trust issue because you concealed your actions.
Whether you have recourse probably depends on two questions: first, are you in a right to work state? Second, are you a protected category (minority, disabled, etc)?
I recommend you see an employment practices lawyer. They will usually offer a free consultation. But don't get your hopes up. At best, you might squeeze a couple months severance out of them, of which the lawyers will take half.
The FAA is irrelevant to any of this.
gmanrider9 said:
No fowl play.
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Screenshot_20240529-105901.png
 
gmanrider9 said:
… A fellow co worker reported him and I for violating conflict of intrest rules. I think it's more moral than legal at this point but I really don't know why they would throw the word legal around...
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No matter what state, employment centers around a contract between the employer and the employee. Part of that contract involves the employer’s code of conduct and conflict of interest policies. Either side breaching that contract is an employment law issue. You probably had an employee handbook or company policies provided to you when hired that outlined acceptable behaviors and actions. That’s part of the employment contract you, as the employee, were expected to adhere to.

Hypothetically, use of non-public information gained in the course of your employment to further your personal interest may be a violation of that contract and grounds for termination.
 
To the Op - did you work at Rocky Mountain Municipal airport? A Google search of your user name seems to tie you to photos posted online that would typically only be taken by someone who works/worked there. If so, does your firing have anything to do with the airport manager also being recently let go /quitting?
 
gmanrider9 said:
So without going into to much detail. My business partner and I were airport admin/ Operations at the airfield where the aircraft was located. A fellow co worker reported him and I for violating conflict of intrest rules. I think it's more moral than legal at this point but I really don't know why they would throw the word legal around. No one is taking any legal action. But they want to pass all of this along to law enforcement for them to investigate further. No fowl play. Nothing of that nature. It's all very confusing.
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If you were public employees you are held to a higher standard, unless you are a member of Congress, the Supreme Court or president.

If you were fired without 3 days notice and given a hearing, you can get your jobs back.

Loudermill hearing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
How did this sale materially harm the employer in this case?
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It doesn’t have to materially harm the employer. It could be as simple as “I’m paying you to work for me, not to run your side hustle on my clock.” Or there could be civil liability for the employer if his facilities or equipment (computers, internet service, phones) was used. That’s a longer shot, but if a suit is filed and the employer is named, he’s going to be out some big bucks defending it.
 
gmanrider9 said:
So without going into to much detail. My business partner and I were airport admin/ Operations at the airfield where the aircraft was located. A fellow co worker reported him and I for violating conflict of intrest rules. I think it's more moral than legal at this point but I really don't know why they would throw the word legal around. No one is taking any legal action. But they want to pass all of this along to law enforcement for them to investigate further. No fowl play. Nothing of that nature. It's all very confusing.
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Did the airport potentially have a lien for tie down fees?
 
Clip4 said:
The big problem I see is the heir and the buyer just stating they wanted nothing to do with the airplane. There should have been written agreements of this transaction and there should have been a lawyer involved so it was done totally legally for the state in which the plane was located.
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That is what I see.

Need a signed statement from the buyer declining. But if they did not pay for the airplane and it was not registered to them, how they could claim anything. But a signed statement releasing all claims would be cleaner.
 
TCABM said:
No matter what state, employment centers around a contract between the employer and the employee.
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Not generally correct. Most states are at-will employment states. No contract exists unless one is separately written and signed. An employee can be fired for any reason, as long as that reason is not illegal.

I have 200 employees in 25+ states, so I deal with this all the time.

Here is a good overview:

www.paycor.com

Which States Are At-Will Employment States? | Paycor

Find out the employment at will laws for your state, including whether there are public policy exemptions or covenant of good faith, with our map and table.
www.paycor.com www.paycor.com
 
ateamer said:
It doesn’t have to materially harm the employer. It could be as simple as “I’m paying you to work for me, not to run your side hustle on my clock.” Or there could be civil liability for the employer if his facilities or equipment (computers, internet service, phones) was used. That’s a longer shot, but if a suit is filed and the employer is named, he’s going to be out some big bucks defending it.
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Depending on the state, it could be as simple as "you are an *******" or "I think we can find someone smarter for less money."

Wrongful termination does not mean what internet lawyers think it does. It does not mean firing someone without a good enough reason. It means firing someone for an illegal reason.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Not generally correct. Most states are at-will employment states. No contract exists unless one is separately written and signed. An employee can be fired for any reason, as long as that reason is not illegal.

I have 200 employees in 25+ states, so I deal with this all the time.

Here is a good overview:

www.paycor.com

Which States Are At-Will Employment States? | Paycor

Find out the employment at will laws for your state, including whether there are public policy exemptions or covenant of good faith, with our map and table.
www.paycor.com www.paycor.com
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There’s an implied contract even in at will states. The key in at will states is having a reason (even if that reason is services are no longer required). When the involuntary termination includes a reason that’s pulled out of thin air (I didn’t like your shoes) and there’s no dress or safety codes/policies* is where the employment lawyer make the case for a settlement.

ETA: or other valid business reason
 
Pinecone said:
That is what I see.

Need a signed statement from the buyer declining. But if they did not pay for the airplane and it was not registered to them, how they could claim anything. But a signed statement releasing all claims would be cleaner.
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I definitely see how that would have cleared all of this up for all parties involved.
 
TCABM said:
There’s an implied contract even in at will states.
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No, I'm sorry, that is factually wrong. There MIGHT be an implied contract in SOME states IF the employment documents are poorly written, but it is difficult to prove. Any competent HR lawyer knows how to avoid it, and employment handbooks are written with that in mind.

In most states, a company can absolutely terminate an employee for any reason, or for no reason. That is the legal definition of "at will".

At-Will Employment - Overview

Employment relationships are presumed to be “at-will” in all U.S. states except Montana. At-will means that an employer can terminate an employee at any time for any legal reason without incurring legal liability.
www.ncsl.org
 
ateamer said:
It doesn’t have to materially harm the employer. It could be as simple as “I’m paying you to work for me, not to run your side hustle on my clock.” Or there could be civil liability for the employer if his facilities or equipment (computers, internet service, phones) was used. That’s a longer shot, but if a suit is filed and the employer is named, he’s going to be out some big bucks defending it.
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I wasn't on the clock for any of this. I'm not filing a suit because if the employer can find a way to can me, chances are they can find a way to win a lawsuit too. Best just to leave it be and learn from my mistakes which is the point of this thread. Not legal advice per say but learning from my mistakes.
 
kmacht said:
To the Op - did you work at Rocky Mountain Municipal airport? A Google search of your user name seems to tie you to photos posted online that would typically only be taken by someone who works/worked there. If so, does your firing have anything to do with the airport manager also being recently let go /quitting?
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RMMA was my airport. Though not openly admitted, I do believe that the departure of the Director and Deputy Director may have had some influence on my co worker and I's dismissal.
 
Ed Haywood said:
No, I'm sorry, that is factually wrong. There MIGHT be an implied contract in SOME states IF the employment documents are poorly written, but it is difficult to prove. Any competent HR lawyer knows how to avoid it, and employment handbooks are written with that in mind.

In most states, a company can absolutely terminate an employee for any reason, or for no reason. That is the legal definition of "at will".

At-Will Employment - Overview

Employment relationships are presumed to be “at-will” in all U.S. states except Montana. At-will means that an employer can terminate an employee at any time for any legal reason without incurring legal liability.
www.ncsl.org
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people : contract :: Vizini : inconceivable
 
gmanrider9 said:
So without going into to much detail. My business partner and I were airport admin/ Operations at the airfield where the aircraft was located. A fellow co worker reported him and I for violating conflict of intrest rules. I think it's more moral than legal at this point but I really don't know why they would throw the word legal around. No one is taking any legal action. But they want to pass all of this along to law enforcement for them to investigate further. No fowl play. Nothing of that nature. It's all very confusing.
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99.9% of LE are going to listen to about 30 seconds of the story before telling your former employer this is a civil matter, and rightly so. Inserting his/her agency into this mess is nothing but a poo-filled Twinkie.

(Unless there are extortion/forgery/etc elements we’re not hearing).
 
Omalley1537 said:
99.9% of LE are going to listen to about 30 seconds of the story before telling your former employer this is a civil matter, and rightly so. Inserting his/her agency into this mess is nothing but a poo-filled Twinkie.

(Unless there are extortion/forgery/etc elements we’re not hearing).
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Maybe 15 seconds. Or however long it takes to hear that the speaker has no actual interest in the transaction.
 
I can't comment on the situation with your former employer, but I think the cleaner way to do this would have been to have the mechanic foreclose his mechanic's lien and then buy it from him free and clear of any potential claims from people that may claim they own the plane.
 
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