How does someone like this pass an IPC or a BFR?

donjohnston said:
Maybe if you're used to flying in the middle of Kansas.

If you're flying anywhere from NH to VA, that's actually a fairly short clearance.
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Truth. I've finally started to file my quickest way west of the mess and then north or south! The extra time is better than 50 reroutes
 
Palmpilot said:
The time I tried it, what I wrote down turned out to be good enough for the readback, but incomprehensible in the air,
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There’s a step in between where you make sure it makes sense, and call back to clarify if need be.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's the conclusion I came to in my ASRS report.
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I’ve had a few copilots who either didn’t think to check the routing, or decided it wasn’t something we needed to deal with until passengers were loaded and engines were started. Fortunately my normal cross checks caught it before the ASRS stage.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’ve had a few copilots who either didn’t think to check the routing, or decided it wasn’t something we needed to deal with until passengers were loaded and engines were started. Fortunately my normal cross checks caught it before the ASRS stage.
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The routing made sense to me when I copied it. I just needed to make what I wrote down less cryptic prior to takeoff.
 
Can a controller decline to issue a takeoff clearance in a case like this? For competency/safety reasons?

Just wondering. I would have to think she might be wondering if the pilot would be in over his head if and when he entered IMC.

If an accident happened and the tapes are reviewed, would the NTSB ask why was a takeoff clearance issued?
 
Walboy said:
Can a controller decline to issue a takeoff clearance in a case like this? For competency/safety reasons?

Just wondering. I would have to think she might be wondering if the pilot would be in over his head if and when he entered IMC.

If an accident happened and the tapes are reviewed, would the NTSB ask why was a takeoff clearance issued?
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I would hope that ATC's role is just to be as helpful as possible (and they usually are) and not to conduct ad hoc pilot competency evaluations. Most controllers are not pilots and really aren't qualified to judge whether a pilot should fly or not. What you're suggesting would open Pandora's Box.
 
Half Fast said:
I would hope that ATC's role is just to be as helpful as possible (and they usually are) and not to conduct ad hoc pilot competency evaluations. Most controllers are not pilots and really aren't qualified to judge whether a pilot should fly or not. What you're suggesting would open Pandora's Box.
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Yeah, I kind of agree. I was just wondering.
 
Walboy said:
Can a controller decline to issue a takeoff clearance in a case like this? For competency/safety reasons?

Just wondering. I would have to think she might be wondering if the pilot would be in over his head if and when he entered IMC.

If an accident happened and the tapes are reviewed, would the NTSB ask why was a takeoff clearance issued?
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No

Bad idea.
 
Most just want to get rid of the “problem “ as quickly as possible.

to whomever mentioned the “hysterical controller “. - he crossed a hold short line and they let him get away with it because they didn’t give him a number to call. He deserved it. Confused or not.

and yes, controllers DO give the next one a heads up when it comes to pilots who are confused, asshats, or are hard to understand
 
Timbeck2 said:
and yes, controllers DO give the next one a heads up when it comes to pilots who are confused, asshats, or are hard to understand
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Sounds like I now have some ammo to mess with controllers.

*me performs horribly on the radio and keeps flying just far enough out of 'spec' to get the altimeter setting reminder*
"Got a Comanche coming your way, I'm sorry you're going to have to deal with this guy."
*me performs flawlessly on radio and doesn't move an inch on altitudes*
"WTF you talking about? That Comanche was as good as anyone I've ever worked."

I actually had something sort of like that happen. I was meandering towards Sagninaw (MI) one day, and was seeing what the stability was like in the Cherokee. Pull back, climb to almost stall, let the nose drop, see how long it took to get back to level. Same with turns, and my bath looked like a drunk bumblebee I'm sure. I'm not talking to anyone, so on the scope I look like I don't know how to fly. But I have Sag Approach dialed in. I hear the controller talking to another pilot about me, and saying he has no clue what I'm doing or if I should even be in a plane.

Oh really?

Snap to 3,500, point myself straight at where I'm headed and key up the mic with my super pro-sounding voice. Never deviated 2 degrees or 25' the rest of the flight.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
No

Bad idea.
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I'm not going to test my theory, but I'm pretty sure if I requested touch-and-go's at my home airport (a busier class D), couldn't read back taxi instructions properly, did a runway incursion or two, asked for runways that were non-existent while giving improper readbacks on where they were directing me -- it would give the controller enough pause to not issue me a clearance for takeoff.

A couple examples from the web (I can't speak to their legitimacy) where the controller was clearly not comfortable sending the pilot up into the skies without further checks:
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/qm0b3j/can_atc_deny_takeoff_clearance_based_on_the/
https://fearoflanding.com/demystifying/n28v-i-need-your-call-sign-please/
 
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Tom Wells said:
I'm not going to test my theory, but I'm pretty sure if I requested touch-and-go's at my home airport (a busier class D), couldn't read back taxi instructions properly, did a runway incursion or two, asked for runways that were non-existent while giving improper readbacks on where they were directing me -- it would give the controller enough pause to not issue me a clearance for takeoff.

A couple examples from the web (I can't speak to their legitimacy) where the controller was clearly not comfortable sending the pilot up into the skies without further checks:
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/qm0b3j/can_atc_deny_takeoff_clearance_based_on_the/
https://fearoflanding.com/demystifying/n28v-i-need-your-call-sign-please/
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Ok


Perhaps according to the internet

bad idea.
 
On the topic of controllers stopping someone not appearing capable. Do they have to give a pilot infinite tries at finally getting a clearance right at the expense of everyone else trying to get service?
 
Walboy said:
Can a controller decline to issue a takeoff clearance in a case like this?
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One of our controllers on this site made a comment once that they are not the sky police.

I don't know the legality of your question but in at least one case the controller had the pilot shut down the engine ... and he no doubt saved at least one life:

 
That was painful. I flew a very similar route last month. I looked up the recent routes and used those. No flight plan changes until I got to Jersey. Then they moved me a little west but no biggee.
 
Half Fast said:
I would hope that ATC's role is just to be as helpful as possible (and they usually are) and not to conduct ad hoc pilot competency evaluations. Most controllers are not pilots and really aren't qualified to judge whether a pilot should fly or not. What you're suggesting would open Pandora's Box.
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Reminds me of the tower controller in the Phoenix area who ordered a lady pilot to land at his airport and get with an instructor before continuing home because she failed to follow an instruction in his class D.
 
Oh…and with regard to the thread title, maybe the pilot knows there’s no such thing as a BFR. ;)

(Someone had to say it, and it might as well be me, since I’ve gotten more that one “shut up and do what you’re told” email in the last week.)
 
At best this is a brand new IR rated pilot, in a new to him airplane, with never before used avionics, in a high density region of the country. At one point I was thinking the guy had to be incapacitated to some degree.
 
I hate to say it, but I think this dude would benefit from a 44709 ride. Presumably he'd get some needed retraining in operational instrument proficiency and copying taxi clearances in preparation for the 709 ride.
We've all stumbled along st some point but this gentleman was behind the airplane before it ever left the ground. Whether it's due to avionics or poor training or whatever, it's clear he's lacking skills.
 
Brad Z said:
I hate to say it, but I think this dude would benefit from a 44709 ride. Presumably he'd get some needed retraining in operational instrument proficiency and copying taxi clearances in preparation for the 709 ride.
We've all stumbled along st some point but this gentleman was behind the airplane before it ever left the ground. Whether it's due to avionics or poor training or whatever, it's clear he's lacking skills.
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Hopefully this dude gets the message - we tend to know when we mess up - and gets that (re?)training without the need for involvement by the FAA.
 
Pugs said:
Truth. I've finally started to file my quickest way west of the mess and then north or south! The extra time is better than 50 reroutes
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How far west would you go to avoid reroutes (Virginia to Buffalo?)
 
Palmpilot said:
The time I tried it, what I wrote down turned out to be good enough for the readback, but incomprehensible in the air, and I botched the procedure. At least I knew enough to stay away from the SFO finals, however.

I like to think that my ASRS report played some small role in the procedure getting at least unofficially published.
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My problem was the fancy new radios cut off after 30 seconds (hot mic prevention). So I had to repeat part of it. That and I had to refresh my VOR skills as I’m GPS 100% of the time.
There are visual waypoints now that you can program in…like the cement plant which I can never pick up from a distance.
Best case is when it’s IFR, less traffic and radar vectors!
 
midlifeflyer said:
Hopefully this dude gets the message - we tend to know when we mess up - and gets that (re?)training without the need for involvement by the FAA.
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I think very few people are self-aware enough of their flying ability to recognize they need retraining. If they pass an IPC/BFR, obviously they're fine and don't need anything, right?
 
DavidWhite said:
I think very few people are self-aware enough of their flying ability to recognize they need retraining. If they pass an IPC/BFR, obviously they're fine and don't need anything, right?
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There are definitely folks with very little self-awareness. But I think most who take 10 minutes to get a slowly given and spelled clearance which, even with questions, should have been copied in less than 2 and follows it up with complete lack of situational awareness for a simple taxi, and gets scolded by ATC in the process, would realize they had a problem. (And that's even accounting for the Jerrys who would blame the controller)
 
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Randomskylane said:
How far west would you go to avoid reroutes (Virginia to Buffalo?)
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Not far really. File to any point west (in a longitude way) of DC (say Brooke VOR) and you'll likely get direct after that, maybe sent to MRB on the way.

From Frederick MD to Westerly RI I'll file FDK to HUO to KWST that keeps me west of Philly and NY and get no deviation. Filing anyplace east of there ends up in endless vectors and reroutes that takes me 20 minutes longer.
 
Depends how far you are away from heavy terminal areas. From IAD/DCA/BWI/PHL/EWR/JFK/LGA/BOS it's a mess. Not too easy around ORD either. Leaving here (just north of CLT) as long as I head in a direction other than straight toward CLT I can go that way (I can even go that way once I convince them I'm going to be at a reasonable altitude crossing the approach paths).
 
Daleandee said:
One of our controllers on this site made a comment once that they are not the sky police.
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Pretty sure it was me but it could have been any of us. This was probably in the middle of the night or early morning since the controller was on both frequencies.
 
I fly in Florida so I’m not getting clearances like that. I think 5 waypoints is the most I’ve ever had.

That said I could have copied and read back that clearance. Unless, as mentioned above, I had a helmet fire. I would not try to program it as it came. No way. Nor try to verify it as it came. But if you get used to programming it as it comes with simple clearances you could get caught unawares.

As I get more experience I get less judgmental because I’ve made more mistakes.
 
1) Foreflight is for planning and filing, and then put it away.
2) Sometimes simple and old (paper and pencil) is better - write it down
3) Then sit for a several minutes and load the computer with what you actually got
4) I've gotten some interesting multi step routes. I've never flown them, because once in the air Departure has always said "OK, just go direct now"
 
WDD said:
1) Foreflight is for planning and filing, and then put it away.
2) Sometimes simple and old (paper and pencil) is better - write it down
3) Then sit for a several minutes and load the computer with what you actually got
4) I've gotten some interesting multi step routes. I've never flown them, because once in the air Departure has always said "OK, just go direct now"
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I fly that route at least 4 or 5 times a year and until you get past Delaware, you pretty much stay on it. Or one of the reroutes you most likely get.
 
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