How does someone like this pass an IPC or a BFR?

I think one of the commenters had it right, he's trying to program (or edit) his Nav rather than just write down and repeat. Maybe he forgot his pencil.
 
That was painful but man! That was a complicated routing!

No excuse for the taxi mess.
 
I'm wondering what would happen to the same guy if he flew INTO a busy area, and had those re-routes in flight.
 
No comment on the pilot, but I sure get a kick out tower's Baaahstaahn accent.
 
I think the pilot is overwhelmed with technology. Guessing he a had a 750 or something similar, got the routing from ForeFlight prior to calling. That what he had every intersection in his initial read back.
 
The controller should have let him taxi all the way to the wrong end of the airport.
 
TommyG said:
I think the pilot is overwhelmed with technology. Guessing he a had a 750 or something similar, got the routing from ForeFlight prior to calling. That what he had every intersection in his initial read back.
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It's a brand new (2021) SR22. You can probably import your route straight to the box on that thing from foreflight.
 
A routing like that is typical when you are flying over NYC. I usually get at least 1 in flight full route reroute, one time I got 3, before you get to NY atc.

I wonder if this guy did one of those rush instrument ratings and missed the copy clearance lesson.

Sporty's did a good job on this. They basically say to empty your mind when writing and reading back a clearance. Don't try to interpret it or worry about it. Just focus on writing correctly and reading it back correctly. Make the controller spell it out if you are having trouble. Once they tell you your read back is correct, you own it. After you have it correctly written, then figure it out and enter it.

This guy was trying to save time, big mistake IMO. Forflight helps, but entering into the fms before you have the official clearance is a waste of time. I've had what I filed, then what ff expects. Ff gets it right about half the time.

I use the ff craft scratchpad. Then unless it's simple, will enter it in ff and transfer to the fms. This is in a newer Cirrus, like this guy was flying.
 
Way too painful. Clearly trying to avoid pen/paper or stylus/tablet. First readback including all the fixes along the airway. On the second go, I had to stop listening when he said to wait while he located the NORWOOD departure.

The worst part is that the controller gave that route clearance very slowly, spelled each waypoint. Made it so easy to copy.

best advice I ever got was, just write what you hear. Don't even try to understand it until after you write it all down.
 
That's even a rather simple version of the OWD departure clearance. I usually get a few more zig zags, down long island sound, intercept a JFK radial, straight over JFK before picking up V16.
 
57DB possible pilot deviation, standby to copy a phone number.
 
My favorite story is my first trip to OWD. I was returning home to CJR (just southwest of IAD). I looked at the charts and figured heading west and picking up V39 down to MRB would keep me west of the NY terminal area. I filed it and the computer took it. I'm sitting on the ramp at OWD and call for the clearance.

27K: Norwood Ground, Navion 5327K IFR to CJR.
OWD: Navion 5327K, you're cleared to CJR via... oh, hell, that's not going to work, stand by (I'm almost certain the strip had what I filed on it).
OWD: Navion 5327K, got your pencil ready?
27K: Ready to copy

and then I was given the route which I came to expect was pretty standard. RV to BOSOX, three other intersections, down the middle of the sound to CCC, follow a CCC radial to a JFK radial, over JFK, V16, to IAD (note they actually put the AIRPORT in the route rather than the on-field VOR) and then direct to destination.
 
Leaving Santa Barbara I received my clearance which, for me, was the most complicated one I had ever gotten to date. The ground controller didn’t really slow down and I wrote as quickly as possible. I got “readback correct “ first-time!

Then I had to comprehend what I had written! Haha! It worked.

Looking back the clearance wasn’t that difficult but it was unexpected by me at that point in my flying.
 
There's no way he's instrument rated. Doesn't know if he needs to read back an instrument clearance? Sorry, he ain't IR.
 
Anyone else hate that every little mistake we make can be recorded and turned into a video?

And the controller was pretty helpful. I love that tired but I'm going to help you Boston accent...
 
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I had a hard time correctly copying the usual San Carlos Rwy 30 IFR departure instructions the one time I tried it:

Fly runway heading until past the Diamond-Shaped Waterway, then turn right heading 120°. Keep turn within 2 NM of San Carlos Airport for radar vectors to [assigned route/fix]. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100’ until crossing the OAK R-165*, then maintain [assigned altitude] (typically 2,000’ or 2,100’). Expect [assigned altitude] 5 minutes after departure.​

http://www.sancarlosairport.org/Departure-Guidance-030222.pdf
 
I kept hearing the controllers voice yet seeing Jerry Lewis...

And I think I have that clearance memorized and I will probably be reading it back in my sleep...
 
I'm not an IFR pilot and haven't even done any "towered airport" flying except the required hours for private training, and I could have copied and read back that clearance. That was really painful to watch. Is this a case of expectation bias? Why was his first readback adding things to the clearance the controller gave him?
 
Palmpilot said:
I had a hard time correctly copying the usual San Carlos Rwy 30 IFR departure instructions the one time I tried it:

Fly runway heading until past the Diamond-Shaped Waterway, then turn right heading 120°. Keep turn within 2 NM of San Carlos Airport for radar vectors to [assigned route/fix]. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100’ until crossing the OAK R-165*, then maintain [assigned altitude] (typically 2,000’ or 2,100’). Expect [assigned altitude] 5 minutes after departure.​

http://www.sancarlosairport.org/Departure-Guidance-030222.pdf
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Oh, departing San Carlos is "fun" :). After many trips there, on this video I'm still trying to get it right (previously reading back Oceanside instead of Woodside more than once)...
 
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Ok, the guy was clearly slow, but... The controller would have known that after all that the pilot was shaken up a little. She could have given him progressive, and pointed out Alpha because it was right there in front of them. "Okay, Alpha is right in front of you, turn left there." She didn't have to, but it would have saved a lot of grief.

I think he was trying to enter the route on the fly. You can't do that, or at least I (and he) can't. Entering the route on the fly is like that experiment where you have one set of instructions going to your left ear, and a completely different set of instructions going to your right. After a few seconds, it's chaos. I have had trouble on FF's scratch pad when I forgot my pencil and had to write with my finger. It's hard to figure out what you wrote just a few seconds ago.
 
SkyChaser said:
I'm not an IFR pilot and haven't even done any "towered airport" flying except the required hours for private training, and I could have copied and read back that clearance. That was really painful to watch. Is this a case of expectation bias? Why was his first readback adding things to the clearance the controller gave him?
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The answer is at the beginning. He starts by saying the had it loaded and was just going to listen to confirm it was right (instead of copying it). When he read it back, he read back the GPS flight plan screen which would have at least listed all of the waypoints where there was a turn on the airway. From his clearance, here's V16 from ORW to RIC. Instead of "Norwich V16 Richmond" he read back all the turning waypoints along the 350 NM stretch. He actually made it more difficult on himself.

Most likely it was a pilot from an area where clearances tend to be super simple "as filed" or "direct" with may a single waypoint. Maybe even a newer pilot - despite the dual cross country requirement real life cross country IFR flight may still be the most neglected part of instrument training.

upload_2022-5-24_13-18-13.png
 
My favorite is this exchange (which has happened a few times):

ROA: Navion 5327K, I have a new route for you, advise when ready to copy.
27K: Ready to Copy.
ROA: Navion 5327K is cleared to Culpeper via direct destination
27K: I needed to copy that?
 
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Ok, I made it to 1m 05s and I don't think I can watch it. Update: I skipped the 8 minutes of clearance discussion and watched the runway incursion. It couldn't have been that bad - Controller never said "STOP".

Like what others have said before, write it down then figure it out. If you have questions, ask. If you don't like your clearance, you can "unable" or reject it after you accept. If you're in the air, they'll tell you the first fix when able. If not, ask. Once I had to ask for a vector to the first new fix while I was reprogramming the GPS.

Interestingly enough, the only time I ever get reroutes is in Texas. Never been to Baahhston.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The answer is at the beginning. He starts by saying the had it loaded and was just going to listen to confirm it was right (instead of copying it). When he read it back, he read back the GPS flight plan screen which would have at least listed all of the waypoints where there was a turn on the airway. From his clearance, here's V16 from ORW to RIC. Instead of "Norwich V16 Richmond" he read back all the turning waypoints along the 350 NM stretch. He actually made it more difficult on himself.

Most likely it was a pilot from an area where clearances tend to be super simple "as filed" or "direct" with may a single waypoint. Maybe even a newer pilot - despite the dual cross country requirement real life cross country IFR flight may still be the most neglected part of instrument training.

View attachment 107104
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So what you’re saying is he sucked and was overwhelmed.

Time for a CFII visit.
 
Yikes. Time for an IPC and maybe some refresher training. Readback time is when you use pencil/pen and paper. This does not have to be complicated. Reading back your pre-loaded flight plan out of the box is not a readback. This guy wasted tons of airtime. I'm glad I wasn't on the ground waiting to get my clearance behind this guy.

Here in the northeast, it is usually futile to load the entire flight plan into the box before departure, unless you have a lot of local knowledge, but even then you can get crossed up. All you really need to do is enter the first few assigned legs into the box, then the rest as you go along from your notes. It's gonna change anyway enroute, usually to your advantage as you get out of busier airspace.

I don't fly a ton of IFR, but I can do better than this.
 
Pilot needs some work, I agree with the other person who said he might have been fumbling with the G1000 “FMS” in the cirrus vs writing it down old school, or maybe just got his instrument, or is rusty

Controller didn’t help when he (she?) starting getting hysterical with a already confused airmen.


Good cheat code for that, file your flight plan on fltplan, once it’s in the system your cleared clearance will appear, copy paste that into ForeFlight, look it over, uplink to the plane and update, most times what they give you over the radio will be exactly that.
 
kaiser said:
Ok, I made it to 1m 05s and I don't think I can watch it. Update: I skipped the 8 minutes of clearance discussion and watched the runway incursion. It couldn't have been that bad - Controller never said "STOP".
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Well, if runway 10 (which is the one he was cleared to) was the only one in use, the incursion on the 17/35 probably didn't impact things much.
=
 
Jackk said:
Good cheat code for that, file your flight plan on fltplan, once it’s in the system your cleared clearance will appear, copy paste that into ForeFlight, look it over, uplink to the plane and update, most times what they give you over the radio will be exactly that.
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I have a feeling he actually did something like that and it’s what got him into the mess. And I suspect the revised routing, which was probably revised after he did the above, wasn’t a huge revision.

To me, the better option is to do as you say but also write it down on paper on a knee board. Then when the revision comes, just walk through what you have and make pencil changes. Then read it back FROM THE PAPER. Then update the GPS.

That’s how I prep for pretty much every IFR clearance. Pretty simple and reliable.

A possible option is if he checks in (on Ground, not Tower!!!) and the controller says he has a revised routing and asks when he’s ready to copy, say “standby”, get your smartphone out, go look at FF or 1-800, see if the revision’s there, and copy THAT on the paper. It may not be there but odds are it is.
 
"Woah, that was a lot of stuff, I'm not sure if you need me to read all that back" :eek:

I'd like to say I feel bad for the pilot, but I don't. Totally fine if you're not the best on comms, but if you can't remember what your role is in this process and cannot execute it competently... just no.

To me it sounded like he either has a level 10 hangover and can't comprehend what she's saying, or he's so incredibly rusty that he can't remember radio etiquette or procedure. In either case he shouldn't have been PIC that day.
One thing is for sure though, if I was a passenger I would have been
1) shi**ing my pants, and...
2) popping the hatch to GTFO

Separately, this makes me wonder how controllers coordinate with people like this. Like does gnd/tower give the approach controller a heads up like "good luck with this guy, pretty sure he doesn't know his a** from his elbow and he almost certainly is not going to follow the departure correctly".
 
It definitely sounded like he had relied on a basic knowledge of his GPS system to enter the data beforehand (ForeFlight or whatever) and when he readback the additional waypoints not in the initial clearance, he got flustered/information saturated while trying to troubleshoot how to correct it. If he was working with new tech/panel and accustomed to fairly simple clearance routes from his part of the country, then I can see where he was behind the airplane for the get-go. Tough to listen to, but on the bright side, he probably spent a good amount of time figuring out the GPS button-ology after this event!
 
Tom Wells said:
"Woah, that was a lot of stuff, I'm not sure if you need me to read all that back" :eek:

I'd like to say I feel bad for the pilot, but I don't. Totally fine if you're not the best on comms, but if you can't remember what your role is in this process and cannot execute it competently... just no.

To me it sounded like he either has a level 10 hangover and can't comprehend what she's saying, or he's so incredibly rusty that he can't remember radio etiquette or procedure. In either case he shouldn't have been PIC that day.
One thing is for sure though, if I was a passenger I would have been
1) shi**ing my pants, and...
2) popping the hatch to GTFO

Separately, this makes me wonder how controllers coordinate with people like this. Like does gnd/tower give the approach controller a heads up like "good luck with this guy, pretty sure he doesn't know his a** from his elbow and he almost certainly is not going to follow the departure correctly".
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Average passenger wouldn't hardly know what was going on anyway until the runway incursion, lol.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
I have a feeling he actually did something like that and it’s what got him into the mess. And I suspect the revised routing, which was probably revised after he did the above, wasn’t a huge revision.

To me, the better option is to do as you say but also write it down on paper on a knee board. Then when the revision comes, just walk through what you have and make pencil changes. Then read it back FROM THE PAPER. Then update the GPS.

That’s how I prep for pretty much every IFR clearance. Pretty simple and reliable.

A possible option is if he checks in (on Ground, not Tower!!!) and the controller says he has a revised routing and asks when he’s ready to copy, say “standby”, get your smartphone out, go look at FF or 1-800, see if the revision’s there, and copy THAT on the paper. It may not be there but odds are it is.
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I agree, I like to have ForeFlight open on one side of my lap, and my pen and paper on the other.


SoonerAviator said:
It definitely sounded like he had relied on a basic knowledge of his GPS system to enter the data beforehand (ForeFlight or whatever) and when he readback the additional waypoints not in the initial clearance, he got flustered/information saturated while trying to troubleshoot how to correct it. If he was working with new tech/panel and accustomed to fairly simple clearance routes from his part of the country, then I can see where he was behind the airplane for the get-go. Tough to listen to, but on the bright side, he probably spent a good amount of time figuring out the GPS button-ology after this event!
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I don’t think syncing a ForeFlight to a panel is basic, but I agree.
 
wayneda40 said:
Oh, departing San Carlos is "fun" :). After many trips there, on this video I'm still trying to get it right (previously reading back Oceanside instead of Woodside more than once)...
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The time I tried it, what I wrote down turned out to be good enough for the readback, but incomprehensible in the air, and I botched the procedure. At least I knew enough to stay away from the SFO finals, however.

I like to think that my ASRS report played some small role in the procedure getting at least unofficially published.
 
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