Center Always Looking For Us After Landing

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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ARFlyer
I harp on my students to hold onto their IFR clearance all the way to landing at uncontrolled fields. Just in case something happens to them on short final. Well my students are starting to question that practice at our home airfield.

I've noticed starting a few months ago that Memphis Center starts looking for us way before we're on the ground. No less then four times have I been called up by an airliner asking for us. 3/4 times I'm still rolling out on the runway. Is center trying to be helpful or are they really that worried about us?

I'll call FSS and I'll be told that we were overdue and should have air canceled. Also half the time Memphis has already called our OPS and my phone is blowing up with texts.

The last time this happened a King Air did a pass of our field looking for us. I had just literally taxied off the runway. It was MVFR at best and in no way was I going to air cancel.
 
Center can't clear another aircraft for the approach,untill you cancel I try to cancel in the air when the landing is assured.
 
ARFlyer said:
I harp on my students to hold onto their IFR clearance all the way to landing at uncontrolled fields. Just in case something happens to them on short final. Well my students are starting to question that practice at our home airfield.

I've noticed starting a few months ago that Memphis Center starts looking for us way before we're on the ground. No less then four times have I been called up by an airliner asking for us. 3/4 times I'm still rolling out on the runway. Is center trying to be helpful or are they really that worried about us?
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Only Memphis Center can answer that. An experienced controller should have a pretty good idea of when you should be on the ground. No reason to expect a cancellation before that time.

Does your field have direct communications with Center at the surface?

The last time this happened a King Air did a pass of our field looking for us. I had just literally taxied off the runway. It was MVFR at best and in no way was I going to air cancel.
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They asked a VFR King Air to make a low pass?
 
They're not worried about you. They either need your cancelation or confirmation that you're on the ground before releasing the airport for departure / arrivals. Generally, if it's a busy uncontrolled field, a call to FSS, relayed to center / approach takes too long.
 
I would start with
"Wilco, NABCD will cancel on the ground or with you airborne 123.45; be advised it typically takes us 12 minutes from this position until landing, time now 20:47, expect cancellation no sooner than 20:59."
 
roncachamp said:
They asked a VFR King Air to make a low pass?
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He was going into a nearby field, so I figured that they just shot our approach instead. The other field isn't more then 15 miles away over flat ground.

Let'sgoflying! said:
I would start with
"Wilco, NABCD will cancel on the ground or with you airborne 123.45; be advised it typically takes us 12 minutes from this position until landing, time now 20:47, expect cancellation no sooner than 20:59."
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Yeah I might do that next time. It takes about 15 minutes minimum normally to shoot the GPS approach.
 
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Velocity173 said:
They're not worried about you. They either need your cancelation or confirmation that you're on the ground before releasing the airport for departure / arrivals. Generally, if it's a busy uncontrolled field, a call to FSS, relayed to center / approach takes too long.
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If another aircraft is waiting for the approach the cancellation does not have to go through FSS, that aircraft makes a much faster relay.
 
roncachamp said:
Does your field have direct communications with Center at the surface?
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Nope, we can barely get center at 2000' most days. Which doesn't bring up another item I've noticed in the last few months. When ever I try to pick up clearance through FSS they advise us that center wants us to call on the ground. I and multiple other people have told center that we can't receive on the ground.
 
ARFlyer said:
He was going into a nearby field, so I figured that they just shot our approach instead. The other field isn't more then 15 miles away over flat ground.
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They cleared another aircraft for approach at your field before they had your cancellation? Interesting.
 
roncachamp said:
They cleared another aircraft for approach at your field before they had your cancellation? Interesting.
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Well MVA is almost right at the approach altitude. They could have broken through at MVA. I have broken through before being given the hold for traffic.

There is several fixes near by that they will hold us at.
 
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ARFlyer said:
Well MVA is almost right at the approach altitude. They could have broken through at MVA. I have broken through before being given the hold for traffic.
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Doesn't matter where the MVA is, it's a separation error. Without your cancellation or communications with you ATC cannot know what your status is.
 
i always wait until on the ground to cancel. If the guy behind me or the guy waiting to take off are so worried about it, let them cancel or depart VFR.
 
I never cancel on the ground. Even breaking out at mins, I will still cancel in the air and free up everything for the next guy(s). Then again I don't think I'm the only one flying in the world.


I don't get the "**** everyone else" attitude.
 
roncachamp said:
If another aircraft is waiting for the approach the cancellation does not have to go through FSS, that aircraft makes a much faster relay.
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Yeah...that's why I said that method takes too long.
 
time to cough up money for an RCO. That or Center better be kosher with the cell phone route.
 
EdFred said:
I never cancel on the ground. Even breaking out at mins, I will still cancel in the air and free up everything for the next guy(s). Then again I don't think I'm the only one flying in the world.


I don't get the "**** everyone else" attitude.
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Just my opinion, but the last time I would cancel in the air is when the wx is at minimums. First, it's sort of a critical time to be dividing attention. Second, what if you had to abort the approach for whatever reason?
 
Cancelling in the air causes a problem if the weather isn't legal VFR when you break out. I am not sure but I seem to recall enforcement action being taken against pilots who cancel IFR to help out the following traffic and the weather was documented to be below VFR minimums. As another poster on this board would say, Caveat Aviator.

Don't let ANYONE pressure you into doing something that you are not comfortable with. Even if that means cancelling on the ground. For the controllers and the flights behind you, well, that is just part of flying IFR into uncontrolled fields.
 
EdFred said:
I don't get the "**** everyone else" attitude.
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Its a legal issue, Ed. If there is weather reporting at that station, you have documentation of operating in IMC without a clearance.

Would a Fed make a case out of that? I would hope they have better things to do, but I seem to recall such a case being made in the past.
 
ARFlyer said:
I harp on my students to hold onto their IFR clearance all the way to landing at uncontrolled fields. Just in case something happens to them on short final. Well my students are starting to question that practice at our home airfield.

I've noticed starting a few months ago that Memphis Center starts looking for us way before we're on the ground. No less then four times have I been called up by an airliner asking for us. 3/4 times I'm still rolling out on the runway. Is center trying to be helpful or are they really that worried about us?

I'll call FSS and I'll be told that we were overdue and should have air canceled. Also half the time Memphis has already called our OPS and my phone is blowing up with texts.

The last time this happened a King Air did a pass of our field looking for us. I had just literally taxied off the runway. It was MVFR at best and in no way was I going to air cancel.
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Had your filed estimated time enroute expired yet?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Its a legal issue, Ed. If there is weather reporting at that station, you have documentation of operating in IMC without a clearance.

Would a Fed make a case out of that? I would hope they have better things to do, but I seem to recall such a case being made in the past.
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It's a Class E Surface Area, so VFR minimums are 1,000 and 3. The feds tend to be more proactive at busy uncontrolled airports with a surface area. Very easy to prove violations at surface area airports.

It also means either the center or FSS has to be in-range on the ground. If that isn't working it should be reported.
 
One way to speed things up may be to call center directly to cancel instead of going through the middleman(FSS).
 
Kritchlow said:
Just my opinion, but the last time I would cancel in the air is when the wx is at minimums. First, it's sort of a critical time to be dividing attention. Second, what if you had to abort the approach for whatever reason?
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Too difficult to make a radio call after breaking out? Sounds like a reanalyzing of your skills is needed.

Here, let me break it down as to how simple it is:

Push PTT button
In the microphone say "[tail number] is cancelling IFR"

So, so, so difficult. But yeah, if you lack the skill set to use the push to talk button after breaking out, by all means keep clogging up the airspace.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Its a legal issue, Ed. If there is weather reporting at that station, you have documentation of operating in IMC without a clearance.

Would a Fed make a case out of that? I would hope they have better things to do, but I seem to recall such a case being made in the past.
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aterpster said:
It's a Class E Surface Area, so VFR minimums are 1,000 and 3. The feds tend to be more proactive at busy uncontrolled airports with a surface area. Very easy to prove violations at surface area airports.

It also means either the center or FSS has to be in-range on the ground. If that isn't working it should be reported.
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I rarely land at a class E surface area.
 
EdFred said:
Too difficult to make a radio call after breaking out? Sounds like a reanalyzing of your skills is needed.

Here, let me break it down as to how simple it is:

Push PTT button
In the microphone say "[tail number] is cancelling IFR.
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I hear similar arguments frequently. I'd bet this guy would have agreed with you, too.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I hear similar arguments frequently. I'd bet this guy would have agreed with you, too.
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Eh, I listen to music from avionics switch on until switch off.

Also was that the NTSB report you meant to link to. That report seems to be a failed engine on takeoff issue, not a minimums issue.
At 0953, the automated weather observation at KICT reported wind from 350 degrees and 16 knots, 10 miles of visibility, a few clouds at 15,000 feet, temperature 59° Fahrenheit (F), dew point 37° F, and altimeter setting 30.12 inches of mercury.
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ARFlyer said:
Yeah, it's only shown on the sectional, I haven't found it listed in the AF/D beyond the RCO page.
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I don't understand. What's only shown on the sectional? The A/FD, sectional, and IFR enroute chart all show an RCO on the field at KHOT; pilots transmit on 122.1 and listen on the VOR. The Memphis Center frequency for that area is 128.47, it's on the Russellville RCAG. KHOT has a surface area. A surface area requires communications down to the runway surface, either directly with ATC or via a rapid relay such as FSS. Russellville seems a bit far to fulfill that requirement so it must be the HOT RCO. Is that not working? Or is it that the relay is just not very rapid?
 
EdFred said:
Too difficult to make a radio call after breaking out? Sounds like a reanalyzing of your skills is needed.

Here, let me break it down as to how simple it is:

Push PTT button
In the microphone say "[tail number] is cancelling IFR"

So, so, so difficult. But yeah, if you lack the skill set to use the push to talk button after breaking out, by all means keep clogging up the airspace.
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Really?? When somebody respectfully disagrees with you, you get nasty?
 
EdFred said:
I guess one would take it to be nasty if it hits close to home.
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I'm not sure why you have such an attitude toward me. You don't know me personally, you don't really know anything about my quails as a pilot, and to the best of my knowledge I've never offended you in any way.

Whatever...
 
EdFred said:
I don't get the "**** everyone else" attitude.
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I don't either. No, seriously, I meant that I don't see that attitude.

I have read multiple stories of people canceling in air then having near misses in 3 mile VFR and I ask - why would anyone take on those risks voluntarily? If you're willing to sacrifice a little of your safety margin for someone else's convenience then you win the altruism contest.

But I'm still not doing it either.
 
bflynn said:
I don't either. No, seriously, I meant that I don't see that attitude.

I have read multiple stories of people canceling in air then having near misses in 3 mile VFR and I ask - why would anyone take on those risks voluntarily? If you're willing to sacrifice a little of your safety margin for someone else's convenience then you win the altruism contest.

But I'm still not doing it either.
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Even if you retain your IFR, you would still have those near misses with VFR you speak of. Once you're on advisory, you're on your own.
 
Personally, it all depends on the situation, and on the airspace. When I'm returning to MPV after dark, you bet I'll keep the IFR all the way to the ground and then cancel. Same if conditions are truly IFR. It's a Class E surface area and I'm not about to try to judge when I'm 500 feet below the bases. Besides, around here if you don't make it you are likely in the woods. I want them to look for me.

Going into a busier untowered field in the flat country, if conditions are VFR, I'll cancel in the air for certain during the day, less certain at night. Again, it all depends. I'm more likely to cancel if I know there is other IFR traffic in the area.

Generally though, if conditions are IFR, I'm going to keep my clearance and cancel on the ground. Yes it may inconvenience someone, but if I cancel and then the clag closes in and I have to go missed... well, I don't want to be in that position.
 
Depending which IAF you ask for, you can have 30nm or more before you land. Your segment altitude is 3000MSL and the ceilings are say, 3200 MSL, while the terrain is under 1000MSL. Rather than tell ATC you can get there from here, drop down to 2500 and cancel, you decide to be the *******, and plod along at less than 90kts because you went to the Ron Levy school of 'stabilized' approaches. Instead you give a giant middle finger to anyone else going in there for the next 25+ minutes, because you won't cancel until on the ground.

That's the **** everyone else I see.
 
i don't cancel in the air if the weather is low. However, for an approach flown in vmc 10k & 10 miles, I would fully expect a cancellation in the air, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the controller assumed something was wrong when he didn't hear you cancel. Far better for him/her to make that assumption and send the sheriff to look for you, than to assume all is ok while you're lying in a wreck bleeding out.
 
roncachamp said:
I don't understand. What's only shown on the sectional? The A/FD, sectional, and IFR enroute chart all show an RCO on the field at KHOT; pilots transmit on 122.1 and listen on the VOR. The Memphis Center frequency for that area is 128.47, it's on the Russellville RCAG. KHOT has a surface area. A surface area requires communications down to the runway surface, either directly with ATC or via a rapid relay such as FSS. Russellville seems a bit far to fulfill that requirement so it must be the HOT RCO. Is that not working? Or is it that the relay is just not very rapid?
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There is also a FSS RCO to the southeast of the airport about 10 miles. It's only shown on the sectional and low Enroute. However, the thing rarely works or they just don't bother to answer.

HOT has a 128.475 Tx/Rx antenna on the field. As I have and have heard others use it before. However, it doesn't reach us because of the mountains.

Lately ATC has been assuming we can talk to them on the ground. Which has never been true. Now granted it's gotten better in the last few years. When I first got my IR ticket, you'd be lucky to hear ATC below 3-4,000'. They still refuse to give FF and actively discourage IFR between us and Pine Bluff. If we do IFR is has to be 5k or greater. I've heard excuses ranging from they don't care to a horrible transmitter set up for that sector. I'm touring Memphis next month and I have a mental note to ask them why.
 
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