roncachamp
Final Approach
Can't drop down to 2500 and cancel when your segment altitude is 3000 MSL.
Center Always Looking For Us After Landing
- Thread starter ARFlyer
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Can't drop down to 2500 and cancel when your segment altitude is 3000 MSL.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
What physical laws of nature prevent me from doing so?
roncachamp
Final Approach
What about the HOT RCO?
The IFR enroute chart and A/FD indicate the 128.475 RCAG is at Russellville.
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ARFlyer
En-Route
My understanding it's at HOT. The sector is listed as Hot Springs in both the chart and AF/D. Also I've requested them to switch transmitters before when they accidentally left it on the Russleville one.
Now is the transmitter on the airport itself or on the nearby mountain. That I don't know.
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That's not his attitude towards you. That's just his attitude.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
As another post noted. Pilots breaking out on approach below VFR minimum weather and canceling before landing have faced certificate action for flying VFR in less than VFR (VMC) conditions.
There was a previous thread on this and I remember reading an article about it in one of the varied aviation journals.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I don't remember the last time I landed in a class E surface area. So for me, when I break out at 2/4/600' I only need to remain clear of clouds.
airdale
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airdale
Call Center and ask them. Asking here is at best a garden of speculation and at worst a source of bad information.
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Kayoh@190
When the weather is marginal, I get it - you want to stay IFR, even if it's legal to cancel before you get on the ground. But let's face it guys, the majority of time we're not at mins, or even in marginal VFR conditions in the terminal area.
When the weather is nice and you wait until you're on the ground to cancel - knowing that others are waiting for you - that's a d!ck move IMO.
When the weather is nice and you wait until you're on the ground to cancel - knowing that others are waiting for you - that's a d!ck move IMO.
It occurs to me that one solution to wanting your search-and-rescue coverage to continue until you're on the ground would be to open simultaneous IFR and VFR flight plans. Since one goes to flight service and one goes to ATC, there should be no conflict.
TheGolfPilot
Line Up and Wait
I'm not reading through everything here but your OP really bugged me. There is nothing more annoying than having to wait for a plane to shut down and call center to cancel. It is inconsiderate to the other aircraft. You should have the FSS set on your com as the standby freq and as soon as you see a clear runway while vfr or on the ground, cancel IFR. It upsets me that a CFI would teach students to clog up the system for no reason. Some people fly to actually get somewhere and when someone Jacks around like that it really bugs me.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I have my instrument students, at least once, hold the IFR clearance until we're on the ground so that they can learn how to cancel via cell phone. From there on out I teach them to cancel in the air if it's VFR to free things up and explain why that is.
I also explain that you need to be really confident you can remain VFR before doing so. I discourage people from canceling in the air at night without first really thinking it through. It's easy to THINK it's all VFR once you break out at night as the clouds are difficult to see..a bit of a trap.
I also explain that you need to be really confident you can remain VFR before doing so. I discourage people from canceling in the air at night without first really thinking it through. It's easy to THINK it's all VFR once you break out at night as the clouds are difficult to see..a bit of a trap.
I just fly for myself, no op-specs or company policy to worry about.
In nice weather I cancel once I have the airport in sight.
At night or if I have to fly the approach, I cancel on the ground. With a bluetooth headset, I can get FSS on the line right after I taxi off the runway. With my cell number linked to my profile, they have the tail number and I have yet to experience any difficulty to cancel. Now if I ever land at a place without cell service, I guess I'll have to ask someone on the last center frequency I was on to relay the cancellation (have heard others do that before).
In nice weather I cancel once I have the airport in sight.
At night or if I have to fly the approach, I cancel on the ground. With a bluetooth headset, I can get FSS on the line right after I taxi off the runway. With my cell number linked to my profile, they have the tail number and I have yet to experience any difficulty to cancel. Now if I ever land at a place without cell service, I guess I'll have to ask someone on the last center frequency I was on to relay the cancellation (have heard others do that before).
azure
Final Approach
Yes. Personally, even if I'm landing at an airport with a transition zone, the bases would have to be over 1500 AGL (and closer to 2000) before I'd seriously consider canceling in the air. At 1500 feet, that means waiting until you're at or below pattern altitude to switch back to ATC to cancel. At that point I'd rather stay on CTAF so as not to miss VFR traffic announcing their position - and to keep my attention on see and avoid.
At a lot of fields without a surface Class E, there's also the issue of being able to raise ATC that low. At some places around VLL, you have to be at 2000 MSL (1300 AGL) for them to hear you.
azure
Final Approach
As I understand it, FSS has no knowledge of your route, whether you were also IFR, or at what time you encountered trouble. The only VFR flight plan I consider really worth using is the lake crossing flight plan over the Great Lakes, and even then, I don't see that it adds much to an IFR plan as long as you're in a radar environment (which today, is most places I would fly over the lakes that also have the lake crossing flight plan as an option).
aterpster
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aterpster
At a lot of airports the only way to cancel is by phone. It takes time. It's a one-in-one-out system at these airports.
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
What I often used to do, if there's someone waiting to get in, is have them relay my cancellation. The frequency they're likely on is right in your standby, and they are talking to the right people.
That said, I am a fan of waiting until I'm on the ground.
I had a biz jet that was annoyed with me because we didn't cancel in the air. But it was marginal VFR (we had been in actual during part of the approach), it was a training flight, so I am trying to practice my approach, and he we were on the LOC 21, while he was waiting to depart 03. So, even if we had canceled, he couldn't have taken off until we were out of his way anyway. Frankly, I am not sure I could have done much to speed his departure up. Still, I have a lot to learn about the practicalities beyond the requirements of PTS.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
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Kritchlow
You have as much right to that airspace as he does. In addition, if he thought the weather was good enough for VFR, he could have departed VFR and got an airborn release. Granted, that can be a bit more involved, but totally doable. Get a clearance on the ground, tell them you'll depart VFR, and go.
I am glad he didn't. We were straight out from the DER 03 on the LOC 21, intending to circle to land in marginal VMC. If he did take off on 03, he would have been screaming right down our throat.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
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I agree.. I would say "Let's hope he would have used better judgement", however seeing as though he wanted you to cancel so he could depart leads me to believe he wouldn't.
LM people have told me that's true if you file with someone else. However, I'm pretty sure the people who will look for you know how to get your filed route. It's been a while since I've participated in missing aircraft searches, but I've never heard of CAP being unable to get it. Also, since we're talking about aircraft that go down while flying an approach, most of the routing is not relevant, and they know your destination.
One of the first things searchers do is find out if ATC was in radar contact with the aircraft, which results in their getting that information, as well as your position and direction of flight at the time radar contact was lost..
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Greg Bockelman
You know what? Sorry, but you can be bugged.
Sometimes that is what needs to happen. If the weather is not VFR, they will have to cancel when they are on the ground. Whether that is a call to the FSS via land line or some sort of remote communications with center depends on the airport. Some places there is no option other than a phone call. In this day and age where everyone has a cell phone, it shouldn't take too long after shut down to get that done, but to advocate calling via cell phone before shutdown is just not a good practice. Calling via radio is another issue, but that is the pilot's prerogative just when that call is made.
Depends on the situation
I don't disagree with that, workload permitting.
Assumes facts not in evidence, Counselor.
We all fly in the same system and we all have just as much right to do so as the next person.
I don't know you personally, and written communications can't convey attitude very accurately. So forgive me for saying this if it really doesn't apply. But you come across like you have an "I am a professional pilot and you bug smashers are taking up my valuable time, so get out of my way" attitude.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
The people that don't cancel in the air when they can, are on par with the guy that leaves his plane in front of the only fuel pump, goes inside to, take a dump, check the weather, ask for a full briefing, and file a flight plan Oh yeah, and he locked his plane with the brakes set so you can't move it.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What physical laws of nature prevent you from flying the approach before those people cancel?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I don't recall saying anything about me flying an approach in the post you quoted, nor did I make any claim of impossibility, so it appears your question is irrelevant.
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Kayoh@190
People point to this all the time to justify all sorts of things. To me, it's about common courtesy. Yes, it's your airspace. But if you're comfortable with the airport environment, the weather, and have no regulatory restrictions, why not cancel and let the guy holding short go out? Not everyone can take off VFR, or they might not be comfortable enough with the terminal environment to do so last minute.
To me it's like the guy that rolls to the end of a 10,000' runway, forcing the guy behind him to go around. It's *his* runway, he has every right to clear when he's ready to. And hey, he's not wrong. But I still think he's a douche.
Kritchlow
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Very few people would consider using 10,000 a needed safety measure, unless perhaps you're flying the truly heavy stuff.People point to this all the time to justify all sorts of things. To me, it's about common courtesy. Yes, it's your airspace. But if you're comfortable with the airport environment, the weather, and have no regulatory restrictions, why not cancel and let the guy holding short go out? Not everyone can take off VFR, or they might not be comfortable enough with the terminal environment to do so last minute.
To me it's like the guy that rolls to the end of a 10,000' runway, forcing the guy behind him to go around. It's *his* runway, he has every right to clear when he's ready to. And hey, he's not wrong. But I still think he's a douche.
On the other hand, many people do consider canceling on the ground to be a reasonable safety measure. So, the two don't compare IMO.
I used to wait until I was on the ground for a variety of reasons. That said, I flew corporate stuff for many years and have not flown a truly light airplane in 20 years. Even so, I don't begrudge anyway who wants to wait to cancel.
roncachamp
Final Approach
To me it's like the guy that rolls to the end of a 10,000' runway, forcing the guy behind him to go around. It's *his* runway, he has every right to clear when he's ready to. And hey, he's not wrong. But I still think he's a douche.
Rolling to the end of a 10,000' runway does not force the guy behind you to go around.
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Kayoh@190
That's a good point, but I mentioned it more to illustrate how I view common courtesy versus the attitude of "it's my airspace" or "it's my runway". Two attitudes that I see used to justify toolish behavior. That said, I do completely agree that if someone genuinely feels safer canceling on the ground, I can't fault that decision.
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Kayoh@190
Okay, technically tower forced me to. Now whether tower is forced to send me around, that's up to him I suppose. ATL told the slow moving 757 to expedite off at E7, and the 757 CA told tower that it was *his* runway, and he'd get off when he damned well wanted to. And just to make his point, he rolled down to E1. I was told to go around. Doesn't matter much to me - I used the extra cash to buy dinner for the crew.
But I feel like it's similar to the guy that does the speed limit in the fast lane. He's not wrong, but he's still an asshat.
People who expect others to cancel while they're still flying the approach are on a par with a guy who expects people to move their plane away from the pump while they're still pumping fuel.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
If out of IMC there's no reason to keep flying the approach. Just as when you have gone into the FBO there's no reason to keep blocking the pumps.
MarkZ
En-Route
From my vantage...
Canceling IFR in the air does help me out. I can get the next aircraft cleared on the approach, or release that departure waiting to get out. However, and a very big HOWEVER, if the weather is MVFR I don't expect nor do I look for a cancel. If I'm itching for a cancel, I will clear an aircraft for a visual approach. Most pilots get the hint and cancel as soon as they see the airport.
If the weather is below your basic VFR minima, don't push it. Note that I said your VFR minima, not what's legally required. I will usually give the pilot alternative methods to contact me if I need a timely call when on the ground.
Canceling IFR in the air does help me out. I can get the next aircraft cleared on the approach, or release that departure waiting to get out. However, and a very big HOWEVER, if the weather is MVFR I don't expect nor do I look for a cancel. If I'm itching for a cancel, I will clear an aircraft for a visual approach. Most pilots get the hint and cancel as soon as they see the airport.
If the weather is below your basic VFR minima, don't push it. Note that I said your VFR minima, not what's legally required. I will usually give the pilot alternative methods to contact me if I need a timely call when on the ground.
azure
Final Approach
Thanks for the info. I might actually try that sometime then, depending on the circumstances.
One thing about VFR flight plans is that because they are through FSS not ATC, they can be a big hassle to open. When I was based at VLL they were pretty much useless because the RCOs in the area were routinely OTS, and many briefers seemed to be uncomfortable with opening a VFR plan with an assumed departure time. At least, that was true 3-5 years ago, not sure how things have changed now.
What if it's an approach for training?
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, I believe you can open and close them now via Foreflight. That said I've never tried it..and I never use them..short of doing it with a student to show them how it works at least once.
azure
Final Approach
It all depends. At night, coming in to MPV I'm still flying the approach even if it's CAVU, unless there's a bright full moon. There is a low ridge just to the south of the approach end of 35, completely unlit and invisible in the dark. 1.2 nm from RW35 I know I can safely descend, but not before.
Sure, I could cancel IFR and continue to fly the approach under those circumstances. But so far there has never been any compelling reason to, the field is pretty much a ghost town at night. If conditions were MVFR, any time of day, no freaking way. I've yet to see clean bases around here, they're always ragged. I wouldn't expect a cancellation from another pilot it if I were holding or waiting for release, either.
Other things being equal, flying an approach and landing while avoiding VFR traffic is a higher workload than waiting to begin an approach. I'm not in favor of demanding that people sacrifice safety for convenience.
There's no safety justification for blocking fuel pumps after fueling is completed.
Yes, that can be a problem. And some airports don't even have cell phone coverage on the ground. I flew VFR to one like that several times recently. There was no pay phone either. When I discovered the problem, I had to take off again and climb to altitude to be able to close my flight plan!
However, for the purpose we're discussing, there's no particular need to open the VFR flight plan immediately after takeoff. One can simply wait until contact with an FSS becomes possible (and a time when IFR-related communications have calmed down).