All traffic in the area, please advise

J

Jon Wilder

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jwylde
AIM 4-1-9(g)(1) states, and AC 90-66C echoes "Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."

I strongly agree, as it creates highly unnecessary frequency congestion. It doesn't give you an accurate traffic picture because (a) not all aircraft have radios, and (b) not all aircraft who have radios would even respond to such a request because (1) they're not obligated to, and (2) it's an awful idea, and we don't want to contribute to unnecessary radio chatter.

ADS-B receivers give a much more accurate traffic picture without causing unnecessary frequency congestion.

However, some pilots will seriously defend the practice to the death. Even going so far as to argue that not all aircraft have ADS-B out, and not all aircraft even have transponders. While this may be true, not all aircraft have com radios either, and those who do are under no obligation to honor your request to advise, so now what? Then you get the anti-authority response..."Well the AIM is not regulatory, and AC's are advisory only".

Regardless, when flying VFR, we have a responsibility to see and avoid. While ADS-B in provides an aid to see and avoid, it is not the be all end all, and we must still have our eyes out the window looking for traffic. Nothing will ever relieve us fully of the see and avoid responsibility when flying in visual conditions.

Was this at one time an accepted practice? Or was it always frowned upon but deviant pilots did it anyway because "they know best"?
 
Jon Wilder said:
“Traffic in the area, please advise”
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“Sure. I strongly advise to maximize your 401k contributions and pick a S&P 500 low cost mutual fund”

I’m fortunate as where I usually fly I haven’t heard the “please advise”. Given the volume of traffic there isn’t much time to do unnecessary chatter, and I think schools around here also do a good job of job of teaching radio ops.
 
I don't use it and don't particularly care for it but hearing the call bothers me less than, say, using CTAF to coordinate a rental car or asking if anyone's seen Clarence recently and how's his dog doing?

Nauga,
ziplip
 
In my flying circle, it seems to be that ex-mil pilots do it the most (although I don't think I ever heard a Navy guy say it). And I hear quite a few UH-60 pilots saying that as they transit uncontrolled fields.
But we all know that correlation ≠ causation.
 
Cessna 1234 15 mile final any traffic please advise. Goes over well at a non towered training airport.
 
nauga said:
I don't use it and don't particularly care for it but hearing the call bothers me less than, say, using CTAF to coordinate a rental car or asking if anyone's seen Clarence recently and how's his dog doing?

Nauga,
ziplip
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What’s your beef with Clarence. He’s a nice enough fellow and the dog is well behaved!
:p :p:p
 
nauga said:
I don't use it and don't particularly care for it but hearing the call bothers me less than, say, using CTAF to coordinate a rental car or asking if anyone's seen Clarence recently and how's his dog doing?

Nauga,
ziplip
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Oddly specific
 
I have found that sometimes the offending person making that call often stops looking for traffic when no one responds.
 
I’ve never used it.
But I don’t have a problem with it and will respond with my position if I hear it.


What really gets to me are the people who get all worked up over it. It just shows a lack of experience and an inability to differentiate between what's truly a big deal and what isn’t.

I was flying recently at an uncontrolled field, with a few other planes in the pattern—just me and two others from big flight schools. Visually, and with the help of our equipment, separation was no issue.

We'd make our downwind and final calls, but then some student or green CFI, sounding about 12, was calling EVERYTHING. Not sure if PTT switches have a TBO, but they would be the one to find out.

This person gets on the radio asking if we have comms, “Afirm”, actually this plane has a great panel, much nicer than their schools planes do. Then says it's "polite" to announce our position. I mentioned we had already been announcing it, and if they weren’t talking so much, they might’ve actually heard us.

I know, cool story, the big issue on radio work are the tons of people who transmit but don’t really listen, or treat it like a two way conversation to coordinate, at that point might as well turn the damn thing off

Oh and don’t put too much faith in ADSB, my plane for example won’t show on your TV screens
 
I would also appreciate, at non-towered airports, that instrument students announce location, distance & intentions, not the instrument reporting point because us lowly VFR pilots don't have the instrument charts and probably wouldn't know what to do with them anyway. GLL (Gill) north of GXY (Greeley, CO) is notorious for this. But at least those of us familiar with Greeley, know what it means. Add to this the new GPS points, and I'm totally clueless where some of this traffic is.

Side note - my ADSB In receiver died on me last week (battery) during flight. Don't know about you, but I've become far too dependent on it. Tower kept calling traffic to me, and I never saw any of it.
 
murphey said:
I would also appreciate, at non-towered airports, that instrument students announce location, distance & intentions, not the instrument reporting point because us lowly VFR pilots don't have the instrument charts and probably wouldn't know what to do with them anyway. GLL (Gill) north of GXY (Greeley, CO) is notorious for this. But at least those of us familiar with Greeley, know what it means. Add to this the new GPS points, and I'm totally clueless where some of this traffic is.

Side note - my ADSB In receiver died on me last week (battery) during flight. Don't know about you, but I've become far too dependent on it. Tower kept calling traffic to me, and I never saw any of it.
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+1

Even someone who flys tons of IFR for work, and has the highest tier of FF on all my devices, if I’m out in my plane or with my occasional student, saying how far out, how tall, and direction and time to the runway gives me a ton more info than a waypoint I don’t have pulled up

I think one of the issues here is folks not understanding radio calls to the point of correlation and probably not being able to have the situational awareness to give the call in a more useful way
 
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If there are two others in the pattern, we all call out cross, downwind, base, final. That’s about it. Works well. Helpful so someone doesn’t cross or turn base into someone who extended.

Usually also call extended downwind for anyone new coming in on practice approach. Almost all the calls are “X miles out”. Simple courtesy keeps the skies working.
 
murphey said:
I would also appreciate, at non-towered airports, that instrument students announce location, distance & intentions, not the instrument reporting point
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If the pattern isn't too busy and someone announces on the radio "At DUMBR for the RNAV GPS 36" I reply with something like "no idea where that is, what's your bearing and distance from the airport?"
 
“Traffic in the area, please advise”

The plane right in front of you doesn't have a working radio ... :biggrin:
 
Jon Wilder said:
ADS-B receivers give a much more accurate traffic picture without causing unnecessary frequency congestion.
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ADS-B receivers may give only a partial picture. The time to look at your ADSB iPad is more than 5 miles from the traffic pattern. If you are lucky enough to have a PFD/MFD display with traffic, that is better. Once near the traffic pattern, it is Mk-1 Eyeballs OUTSIDE.

But the point, not all "aircraft" have ADSB Out, nor are they required to have ADSB or a Transponder. And some don't have radios or may be operating on a handheld device.
If you are heads down looking at an iPad or similar device for traffic, you are part of the problem. Mk-1 Eyeballs OUTSIDE.
 
frfly172 said:
Cessna 1234 15 mile final any traffic please advise. Goes over well at a non towered training airport.
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and then everyone steps on everyone else's radio transmission as they try to "answer up"... just makes things worse.
Make your position call, and then listen, build your mental picture of where everyone is based on their position reports, what they are doing, and how you plan to fit in.
 
Not sure what ADSB has to do with ATITAPA. Just listen to the CTAF and build a picture of what's going on. Announce at around 10 miles out and listen some more. Not that big of a deal, and better learning for students to build that situational awareness without asking.
 
I once heard a guy append it to every single call he made, and he made every possible call for his arrival to the airport that day. 25 miles out, 20 miles out, etc, every leg of the pattern, one or two of the corners of the pattern, long final, short final, clear of the runway, taxiing to the ramp, and clear of the taxiway. I’m not exaggerating. I bet he said it out loud after shutting the plane off, and I’m almost certain it’s what he says to check if a men’s room is in use before opening the door.

My main problem with it is what it implies about the person transmitting it: He might be relying on hearing a response before he bothers to look for traffic. The secondary problem is wasted time on the air, which is eclipsed a dozen times over by the long rag chews and by people who would enunciate the airport name better with a mouth full of cotton balls. My home airport is on 122.8 along with about a thousand other nearby fields, so the safety value of transmitting your location in the pattern is rendered moot if nobody knows which airport’s pattern it is.
 
Makes me wonder if the Flexjet crew used the ATITAPA radio call before pulling in front of a landing Southwest jet ... :dunno:
 
I always stressed to my students to make a position announcement when approaching an uncontrolled airport and then once or twice again once in the pattern, depending upon how busy it was. Making an announcement was usually enough to elicit a radio response from other aircraft in the vicinity. Other than that, fly a predictable pattern and keep your eyes outside the cockpit.
 
MauleSkinner said:
GLA and UND. I was told it had to do with the Chinese culture considering it impolite to just say something to the effect of, “I’m here.”
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Since when are the Chinese worried about being polite lol
 
Jon Wilder said:
Was this at one time an accepted practice? Or was it always frowned upon but deviant pilots did it anyway because "they know best"?
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Ranks up there with "Last Call" as one of the dumbest things you can say. :D You want to limit your transmissions to only position reports or other timely information.

Was it a practice? Well, more of a habit that became pretty prevalent back in the day. If you fly into a really busy non towered airport it will become really apparent why you don't want extra irrelevant radio transmissions. Say I'm coming in and.... Someplace Traffic, Mooney 1234 10 miles west any traffic please advise............ Someplace Traffic Mooney 1234 9 miles west planning Rwy 02. So, if it really busy and people can barely get a word in, what do you think that whole first bit did? If you just reported 10 West, do you think in the time it takes you to actually get to entering the Downwind, you would hear others reporting Downwind, Base, Final or also entering from maybe the South? And what about a NORDO Cub, are they going to respond to your Traffic in the area please advise. :cool:
 
My son started doing something that caught me off guard - he not only states distance from the airport but also time.

I asked him where/when he started doing that and he told me that when he started flying faster airplanes it just made sense to him. In the not too distant past (as in August of 2024) he was flying a C150 for his private. He's now flying our 310Q and that speed is about twice what the 150 would do.

It reminded me that 20 mile out at 90kts is a lot different than 20 miles out at 249.9kts in a Citation.
 
k9medic said:
My son started doing something that caught me off guard - he not only states distance from the airport but also time.

I asked him where/when he started doing that and he told me that when he started flying faster airplanes it just made sense to him. In the not too distant past (as in August of 2024) he was flying a C150 for his private. He's now flying our 310Q and that speed is about twice what the 150 would do.

It reminded me that 20 mile out at 90kts is a lot different than 20 miles out at 249.9kts in a Citation.
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The time thing is a good habit, people who only fly 110kt fleets have a hard time with 10mi final for a jet being about the same as most peoples 3 mile final in a 172


Didn’t realize a citation could do 249 ;)

I’m used to requesting high speed
 
Roller said:
The time thing is a good habit, people who only fly 110kt fleets have a hard time with 10mi final for a jet being about the same as most peoples 3 mile final in a 172


Didn’t realize a citation could do 249 ;)

I’m used to requesting high speed
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249.9 LOL. No more, no less... At least that is what I will admit to.
 
The best response I recall hearing to the"any traffic please advise" was "nobody out here except us NORDOs."

...and I think it was true because I counted six Piper Cubs in the pattern at KEEN that day!

-Skip
 
AV8R_87 said:
If the pattern isn't too busy and someone announces on the radio "At DUMBR for the RNAV GPS 36" I reply with something like "no idea where that is, what's your bearing and distance from the airport?"
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I just pretend I didn’t hear them and make a position report wherever they said they were, +50 feet and descending.


Not really, but I want to.
 
AV8R_87 said:
So, what's everyone using when checking in with the next controller?
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"Center, N123, level 8 thousand." I'm strictly professional as long as I'm talking to ATC. Of course, when I'm done with 'em, though ...

ATC: Radar services terminated, squawk VFR, change to advisory frequency approved.
Me: No more squawky, no more talky!
 
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