...

[StraightnLevel]

...

 

[bnt83]

Why not look at ads for similar aircraft that come near desired outcomes to get an idea?

 

[Anthem]

really depends on plane - this applies for paint, exterior, etc.

Paint is running about 25K (sometimes more, sometimes less) for a single engine piston. Some have flown it south of the border to get cheaper rates (probably less EPA/OSHA issues). But it isnt as easy to just spray painting. If its done right, it has to be completely stripped (and you want to do this as it adds weight), and all the control surfaces are removed and done individually. And then re-assembled.

Interiors - basic 6 seat airplane - probably 20-30K depending if you go moderately basic or one of the swankier interior companies. You can get this down to 12-15K if you dont plan on doing "everything" - like just seats and carpet. There is time involved in headliners, side panels, etc etc.

Avionics - if its a simpler upgrade, the labor is less. but a complete stack overhaul going glasspanel, dual navigators, etc - easily 60K. AutoPilot - additional 25K-35K depending upon type and such. The AP itself can run close to 20K from Garmin, STEC. Lots of labor in removing and re-installing multiple servos, testing, and what not. The only easy AP is if its an inplace upgrade - which STEC has been known for - where you get to re-use your existing servos. There are in place upgrades for say older Garmin GNS navigators to say Avidyne IFD440/540/550 series. Its literally a swap out (maybe a WAAS gps as well). And you'll get an advanced new GPS unit. But I caution you on the upgrade - it will only save you about 3K in installation cost over a new Garmin GTN navigator to be re-pinned. It costs the exact same as the current model Garmin - just the installation cost is saved. BUT - you'll now be eliminated from using a onePak or PilotPak subscription that Garmin sells to cover say a G1000, GTN750/GTN650 combo. And you'll have to pay for a Garmin subscription for your G1000 and an Avidyne subscription for your Avidyne units. Its not double - but its not insignificant either.

Should add - you are almost always better off buying it with good paint, interior, avionics. . . sometimes they look like its more - but the avionics are usually "discounted" as you cant put in 100K and necessarily expect 100K in boosted value (though many seem to think so)

 

[Bell206]

Trouble is, I don't really know how to price the restoration work to get an idea of what the all-in, ready-to-fly investment would be. How do you compare a fully-restored example from one that is airworthy, but looks like it hasn't been touched in my lifetime?

Unfortunately, there is no one answer as there are a number of variables that influence the numbers. For example, geographic location and even what is your definition of "restoration" vs refurbishment can cause huge swings in costs. From a maintenance standpoint, what I would recommend to potential owners when buying their 1st aircraft or 10th aircraft, is to set your budget and determine what you want for that money.

I also recommend that you select your mechanic first before the aircraft, as this can also have an influence in what your costs after purchase can be. Then sit down with him and start working out your before and after cost projections specific to the area and aircraft you want to buy.

Regardless, you will never spend less for a new panel, or paint job than what you can buy all ready installed or painted.

 

[frfly172]

Too many variables to accurately estimate a cost. You would have to price it out when you decide what airplane you’re interested in and what options you would be happy with. You could call various shops for a more accurate estimate.

 

[bradg33]

A "restoration" will almost certainly be uneconomical (from an ROI standpoint) if you're not doing a lot of the work yourself (or with your own employees that you're paying $20-40/hr, instead of a shop that you're paying $100+/hr. A lot of folks do restorations because they want to, not because it's going to be a good "investment."

 

[MooneyDriver78]

G1000s are only for new planes, for most of us it’s G3X or G500TXi.

Paint cost varies with scheme, number of colors, which colors, metallic/plain, etc

Avionics quotes seem to vary wildly, I think total upgrade with all new boxes, new custom panels…is more cost effective than upgrade a little over time. Shops like the total upgrade.

 

[TCABM]

…
What does it generally cost to re-paint a small GA aircraft? What drives that price up or down?

$20K and up. Quality, complexity, size of aircraft and labor rates.

…
What about interior? To do a full restoration, i.e., carpet, seats, interior panels? What are the price drivers here?

$10K & up depending on upholstery choices, side panels, etc., and any corrosion repair found when all the panels are removed. Labor rates.

…
What about a full re-instrument job? I think I know what a couple of G5s would cost, but how much is it if you're pulling out original steam gauges and going full glass, say a G1000?

Dual dynon w/AP, $30k & up before labor. Does not include a navigator.

Easily, $75K before downtime. Want a fresh motor and you’r looking at $125ish and likely downtime greater than a year.

 

[brcase]

If its done right, it has to be completely stripped

I recently watched them haul off a 182 for scrap, that had been improperly stripped. There is value in getting someone that knows what they are doing.

To OP's question, my impression with very little experience to back it up is unless you can do most of the work yourself, which rules out pretty much all but A&P's, you will get about 50% of our restoration/upgrade value back when you sell the airplane. Maybe 75% in the best case.

Others with more 1st hand experience can confirm or refute that opinion.

The advantages of a fixer upper for most people are they can either configure it like they want, or they can spread the cost out over a longer period of time, even if it costs more than buying what they want. Down side is the plane may be down for extended periods while the work is being done.

Otherwise most cost efficient is to buy as close to what you want as you can get to begin with.

Brian

 

[Salty]

Rough idea is everything you're willing to spend, and then a little more.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

If you want a nice plane....pay the money and buy it. You will not save money buy doing it yourself. Even as an A&P I/A....I won't make much doing it myself.

 

[kyleb]

The only benefit from buying an airplane and farming out all those upgrades is that you'll know everything is new, you'll have a warranty, and you'll have a relationship with the shops that did the work. You won't come out ahead financially, but if this is your end-all be-all airplane (the one you're gonna keep forever) it might be worth it from a non-financial perspective.

 

[TCABM]

…
For example, if I find something that is absolutely perfect except that the paint is 40 years old and looks 50, I would likely buy it and deal with the painting cost. Same for an interior...

The thing about P&I and avionics is usually also likely add weight to the plane. Might only be 10lbs, might be more. That eats into useful load.

Everything in aviation is a compromise.

 

[Omalley1537]

It's not so much about saving money as much as finding the right sort of plane and understanding what I'm willing to deal with vs. must-haves at time of purchase.

For example, if I find something that is absolutely perfect except that the paint is 40 years old and looks 50, I would likely buy it and deal with the painting cost. Same for an interior. Engine? Probably not (knowing that this is an area of rolling the dice every time you fire it up).

It's helpful to have an idea of what things cost so that I don't get into a project that leaves me both broke and grounded at the same time.

You might rethink the engine part (if I understood you to mean you’d shy away from an airplane needing an engine). There’s pluses and minuses to everything as usual, but I’d strongly consider buying an airplane with great paint, interior, and especially avionics, but with a runout engine. The reason is that you will pay a significant premium on a low or mid-time engine. However, depending on how that engine was (or wasn’t) taken care of, you may get a full life from it, no life from it, or anything in between. If it craps out 25 hours in, you’ll now be paying for an overhaul and the premium you paid for the “low time” engine is wasted.

If you buy your ideal airplane with an engine at high-time, you can buy it at a price that factors in the overhaul cost, and if things look good, continue to fly it while you wait for your new engine. Every hour you do get is “free” time on the engine.

When considering the cost of avionics, don’t forget the substantial cost of installation labor, particularly if you are doing full-panel upgrades like glass, AP, etc.

 

[Jdm]

I’m doing a new 6 place leather interior with embroidery, accent pieces, arm rests, carpet, wind lace, and a few side panels. We’re at about $9,500 in interior fees, mostly for the seats. I’m doing the removal and installation myself, which is a lot of work. My best guess is it would be close to 2x as much at a full service interior shop.

 

[Jdm]

When considering the cost of avionics, don’t forget the substantial cost of installation labor, particularly if you are doing full-panel upgrades like glass, AP, etc.

Yes indeed. Here’s a pic of a lower instrument panel that I finished a few months ago. Converted an original multi piece degraded plastic overlay to a one piece metal lower with new switches, breakers, engine controls, environmental controls, etc. Cost about $2,500 in parts. Labor on the other hand was excessive. I’m ashamed to say it took close to 100 hours. Keep in mind I’m a one man show. Lots of research, paperwork, multiple trips to the airport, supply orders, back and forth with drawings, reworking dimensions, laser engraving, fitting, wiring, rigging, and the list goes on.

 

[Steamflyer]

Yes indeed. Here’s a pic of a lower instrument panel that I finished a few months ago. Converted an original multi piece degraded plastic overlay to a one piece metal lower with new switches, breakers, engine controls, environmental controls, etc. Cost about $2,500 in parts. Labor on the other hand was excessive. I’m ashamed to say it took close to 100 hours. Keep in mind I’m a one man show. Lots of research, paperwork, multiple trips to the airport, supply orders, back and forth with drawings, reworking dimensions, laser engraving, fitting, wiring, rigging, and the list goes on.

That is beautiful. And the kind of thing you can only do yourself and eat the labor.

It will almost never pay to "restore" and aircraft in terms of ROI. You do it because you like it better, it has better utility or safety, or because it's your "forever" plane and you don't care about being massively upside down. I've done three "forever" planes minus the paint - it can almost always be brought up with enough elbow grease to be good enough as long as the initial scheme is ok.

Lately I see fewer candidates that are worth doing a total redo on - the airframes are just too ratty or have had enough damage history that they really don't fly that straight.

When all is said and done that seems to be the key - can you trim the airframe such that it will fly hands off? If so, you will enjoy your restoration. If not, pass. Almost anything but bent can be fixed. Little by little the supply of clean airframes will dwindle because let's face it, the last surge in production was almost 50 years ago.

And 200k for paint, engine, avionics, and interior is not far from wrong, may be a bit low. You don't have to do it all at once of course.

 

[Florida Flyer]

Expensive

 

[Pinecone]

My local FBO quoted me about $12,000 to do my Mooney interior using AirTex carpet and seat kits. This would include repair and painting of the plastic parts.

A full deal interior, meaning covering all the plastic parts with Ultra Leather, custom carpets and seat upholstery and leather covered yokes and nice embroidery can run over $25,000 plus removal and reinstall.

You can also price the AirTex stuff and do it yourself.

 

[StraightnLevel]

My local FBO quoted me about $12,000 to do my Mooney interior using AirTex carpet and seat kits. This would include repair and painting of the plastic parts.

A full deal interior, meaning covering all the plastic parts with Ultra Leather, custom carpets and seat upholstery and leather covered yokes and nice embroidery can run over $25,000 plus removal and reinstall.

You can also price the AirTex stuff and do it yourself.

How much interior work can you do yourself in a certified plane? What requires A&P signoff? For example, the lower panel shown above - can you do things like that without having to pay a shop, or is the panel off-limits even if you don't touch the actual avionics, wiring, etc.?

What constitutes an "appliance or component part" as stated in 43.3? What is an "approved training program" for replacing a seat cover? It seems that 43.3 and 43 Appendix A.3.(c).15 are contradictory....?

 

[Bell206]

How much interior work can you do yourself in a certified plane?

Everything as listed in Part 43 Appx A(c) and further defined as preventive maintenance in Part 1. However, there are limits such as items requiring removal/disassembly of primary structure or operating systems, altering the basic interior layout, etc.
This is also provided you are a certified pilot. But keep in mind if you are working under the supervision of an A&P you can perform whatever maintenance they are authorized to perform as well and are willing to sign off.

What requires A&P signoff?

Removal/disassembly of primary structure or operating systems, alterations to the basic interior design, empty weight & balance corrections over 1 pound, etc.

For example, the lower panel shown above - can you do things like that without having to pay a shop, or is the panel off-limits even if you don't touch the actual avionics, wiring, etc.?

No. That panel work above would be considered an alteration.

What constitutes an "appliance or component part" as stated in 43.3?

In general, aviation items are classified as “products” and “articles.” Appliances and components are a sub-set of those classifications:

What is an "approved training program" for replacing a seat cover?

??? If referring to 43.3(h) & (i) that only applies to Part 135 ops.

It seems that 43.3 and 43 Appendix A.3.(c).15 are contradictory....?

Not really. 43.3 defines who can perform the maintenance and 43 Appx A(c) lists "categories" of preventive maintenance.

 

[AirSew]

The cost of interiors vary greatly on materials, modernizations, look and feel, fixing versus upgrading, etc... for example, a recover with mid-tier burn cert vinyl/fabric on 4 seats alone without new foam would run $3500ish at our shop. That same thing with full hide leather, new custom foam and contouring, two tone design with custom stitching and embroidery, powdercoating seat frames, etc..could easily run over $10k just for 4 seats. It also depends on the model and make. Certified 3-4 seater from Piper and Cessna with headrests are fairly common and considered the smallest seats(outside of experimental) we see. Once you get into 6+ seats the frames are bigger and require more material. Same goes as you graduate to twins, jets, etc.. With all that being said, interiors are a major factor when it comes to resell. Every plane that we have done a full restore(headliner, dash, floor, seats, panels, baggage, etc.) have always moved quicker and sold for more than a counterpart in the same class that has not been updated. I may sound bias, but we are in a different era of general aviation where older planes are becoming the new resto-mod 69 Camaro of 20 years ago. The new generation of owners want style, comfort, and modernizaton without have to shell out high 6 or low 7 figures for a 4-6 seat plane. The older certifieds are just going to keep climbing in price. So invest in the plane, because its the experience that drives value.

 

[bluerooster]

To answer the OP, the cost should put you a little over what it will be worth when you're finished. (provided you didn't pay too much when you bought it)

 

[Dave Palacios]

As I'm starting to look at planes, it's clear that my budget drops me into a fairly wide range of options, and they range from flight-ready to....ahem....opportunities for improvement. Trouble is, I don't really know how to price the restoration work to get an idea of what the all-in, ready-to-fly investment would be. How do you compare a fully-restored example from one that is airworthy, but looks like it hasn't been touched in my lifetime? So:

What does it generally cost to re-paint a small GA aircraft? What drives that price up or down?

What about interior? To do a full restoration, i.e., carpet, seats, interior panels? What are the price drivers here?

What about a full re-instrument job? I think I know what a couple of G5s would cost, but how much is it if you're pulling out original steam gauges and going full glass, say a G1000? Yes, I can find the list price for the electronics and STC, but how much should I budget for a new panel and installation, worst case?

Worst case ? how much money do totally have, what airplane, what vintage, how far out from the last annual, what kind of annual was it ( a quick pencil whipping or a thorough inspection and things were fixed or deferred) are you doing the work, assuming you are qualified, are you able to put all your time in, how much of a restoration is it, do you intend more? A lot of factors /variables. probably better to approach it from the other end Figure what budget you have then find something that is likely to fit.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Restoration is the wrong term IMO. That means to return to like-new condition, and typically includes work on the structure, controls, mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems. Very expensive.

Sounds like you want to update or refresh. This costs what you want to spend, and can be done at whatever pace you want.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Airframe problems that show up when you start pulling the interior or taking the wings, off, etc., can turn into a game-changer real quick. Corrosion, cracked major components, old damage that wasn't properly repaired can all turn into a financial nightmare. Many critical parts aren't made anymore (like the Cessna spring-steel flat MLG legs, or the Cardinal wing spar carrythrough) and now you're competing with the owners of other airplanes like yours to find that stuff somewhere.

And that is due to cheap maintenance. The interior never gets pulled to get a look at the structure. Even some inspection panels or wing root fairings are never pulled off to get a good look at the highly-stressed stuff. FAR43 Appendix D outlines the MINIMUM stuff to be done at annual or 100-hour inspections, and it has stuff like this in it:



So how does one comply with that if the interior, fairings and other stuff aren't removed? Why did I find so many rusted-in screws in inspection covers, so many ancient mouse nests, so many cracked bulkheads and the like?

Beware. Unpleasant surprises are not uncommon.

 

[Gary Ward]

Airframe problems that show up when you start pulling the interior or taking the wings, off, etc., can turn into a game-changer real quick. Corrosion, cracked major components, old damage that wasn't properly repaired can all turn into a financial nightmare. Many critical parts aren't made anymore (like the Cessna spring-steel flat MLG legs, or the Cardinal wing spar carrythrough) and now you're competing with the owners of other airplanes like yours to find that stuff somewhere.

And that is due to cheap maintenance. The interior never gets pulled to get a look at the structure. Even some inspection panels or wing root fairings are never pulled off to get a good look at the highly-stressed stuff. FAR43 Appendix D outlines the MINIMUM stuff to be done at annual or 100-hour inspections, and it has stuff like this in it:

View attachment 129415

So how does one comply with that if the interior, fairings and other stuff aren't removed? Why did I find so many rusted-in screws in inspection covers, so many ancient mouse nests, so many cracked bulkheads and the like?

Beware. Unpleasant surprises are not uncommon.

I removed many many wasp and mud dauber nests over a period of a few years meaning no one has been in there for years before I started flying it. I still don't think I have them all out yet.

I am interested in those bolts. I think I might remove them for closer inspection next month during annual inspection ?

It's PIA but I do remove the interior each year to look at what I can. Now I am pretty good at it after so many times. I just noticed this picture is my friends 172 that helped take apart with his AP.

I feel good after I do it.
Look at some of the crap I found.

I have been updating? or restoring parts of this plane for 5 years now all the while keeping it airworthy so I can keep flying it with a few days here and there when it is down. Usually I do it when foul weather is forecasted.

 

[Dan Thomas]

It's PIA but I do remove the interior each year to look at what I can.

I feel good after I do it.
Look at some of the crap I found.

Good man. I bet 90% of light airplanes never get that sort of inspection. Ever. If it's being done by the shop, it can turn into a budget-breaker for the owner, so it never gets done. The guy that buys such an airplane gets the first-annual shockers.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Scat tube is so cheap and easy to replace. I was intimidated until I installed my overhauled engine. When I realized how easy scat tube is to work with, I laughed that I had avoided replacing the old stuff before.

 

[Dan Thomas]

It might be better to go in with the plan that it's going to need a bunch of work, than to go in hoping it needs very little.

It might be better to do a thorough prebuy inspection, on the scale of what Gary Ward does.

 

[dbahn]

Any estimate is subject to the "while we're at it" feature, meaning you will likely find things that are airworthy but more convenient to upgrade during the project than after you think it's all done. Thirty years ago I could probably have bought a pretty good J3 but elected to buy one that "needed some work". I helped with the rebuild, learned a lot about the plane, and have enjoyed it for all of those years.

 

[hindsight2020]

Oh, so we're finally admitting the pervasive nature to pencil-whipping in this space, endemic to a regulatory environment that economically incentivizes said dereliction. Good, we're making progress here.

Remember, it's either a pervasive, or it isn't. It can't be both just to shoehorn a regulatory status quo defending agenda.

 

[Gary Ward]

Take a look at those fuel hoses...

Found a small wasp nest in the stall horn, worked much better after I removed it. And I didn't notice it at first until saw it in a picture I took.

First time back in the fuselage I found all the drain holes blocked with original aluminum shavings. Light scotchbrite pad and a shop vac with a long hose took care of that problem.

 

[Dan Thomas]

At locations "A", under those plastic covers, the bulkhead tends to crack. It flexes as the rudder shoves the tail around. The big back window above that place made the fuselage too flexible there.

Locations "B" are where that bulkhead cracks at the holes cut for the bag door hinges.

Under "C" is a cluster of pulleys for the elevator, rudder and trim cables. They tend to seize up as the lube hardens in their bearings.

At the bottom of the aft doorposts, at "D," you might find cracks. Hard to see. The covers have to come off and you look forward, using a light and mirror, just inboard of the aileron cable pulleys to see the crack. There's a kit to fix it, but a pain to install.



From this useful document: https://www.cessnaflyer.org/media/kunena/attachments/1805/1969-76172SID.pdf

 

[Gary Ward]

View attachment 129420

At locations "A", under those plastic covers, the bulkhead tends to crack. It flexes as the rudder shoves the tail around. The big back window above that place made the fuselage too flexible there.

Locations "B" are where that bulkhead cracks at the holes cut for the bag door hinges.

Under "C" is a cluster of pulleys for the elevator, rudder and trim cables. They tend to seize up as the lube hardens in their bearings.

At the bottom of the aft doorposts, at "D," you might find cracks. Hard to see. The covers have to come off and you look forward, using a light and mirror, just inboard of the aileron cable pulleys to see the crack. There's a kit to fix it, but a pain to install.

View attachment 129422

From this useful document: https://www.cessnaflyer.org/media/kunena/attachments/1805/1969-76172SID.pdf

Thank you for sharing your expertise. I think I was looking at the wrong side when trying to inspect for door post cracks. Inspection needs to be done when the airframe reaches 4000 hrs I believe?

I think a section of the floor has to be cut out to inspect that area and for the kit to be installed?

 

[sourdough44]

No matter what you buy, there will be issues, and bringing it ‘up to snuff’.


A number of years ago I listed a low hour Warrior. One ‘tire kicker’ told me he could buy a similar aircraft for cheaper. I told him, go do it. With aircraft, much more than vehicles, conditions matter. One may get tangled up with the ‘barn find’, where restoration greatly exceeds the value.
One could easily have planes of the same year, 10’s of thousands apart in value.

 

[Initial Fix]

I have been updating? or restoring parts of this plane for 5 years now all the while keeping it airworthy so I can keep flying it with a few days here and there when it is down. Usually I do it when foul weather is forecasted.

I would call that maintenance. Just keep at it.

In my old plane, we found fuel lines that were original to the plane that were over 60 years old You just need to keep at it over the years.

 

[Gary Ward]

I would call that maintenance. Just keep at it.

In my old plane, we found fuel lines that were original to the plane that were over 60 years old You just need to keep at it over the years.

Yea maintenance was the word I was looking for. Thanks

 

[jbarrass]

Every plane I've owned has been a project, and it's been great. The key me thinks is to start out with a straight airframe without significant corrosion, those make it to hard to rehabilitate.

As to the semantics, I think restoration is not really the idea here, I think that's reserved for bringing a classic back to like new status. Rehabilitation is the word I'd use.

For me it was a labor of love. "Labor" being a foundational word. A plane that's been on the ramp too long with faded paint can be made much better with cleaning, rubbing compound, and wax. cheap, but seriously hard work. Or a plane coming off a lease back with a ton of abuse, much of which can be repaired by a good owner. Massive cleaning, all new Scat tubing, will make it look better. Learn the difference between LPS 1, 2, and 3.

Do you have a relationship with a good A&P? or willing to build one? Do you have a hangar? Do you like that kind of thing? If you do, it'll be great, if not, life will suck. In some ways it's like building an EAB.

Flying projects are way better than non-flying projects.

Planes often have surprises built in. It can be fun.....or not.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Thank you for sharing your expertise. I think I was looking at the wrong side when trying to inspect for door post cracks. Inspection needs to be done when the airframe reaches 4000 hrs I believe?

I think a section of the floor has to be cut out to inspect that area and for the kit to be installed?

That's the forward doorpost you're looking at. It carries the loads from the wing struts. The one in the drawing is the aft doorpost. It joins to the main landing gear box's rear bulkhead.