Dan Gryder Lockheed Electra Crash

[robin ardoin]

@Bill
My father treated a lot of facial trauma from MVA's back in the 60's and 70's. Back in the days of near non-existent seat belt use and metal dashboards. The frequency and severity of the injuries were MUCH higher than when I trained for the same profession 25yrs later. The majority of my trauma training was interpersonal violence and much less MVA as the mechanism of injury. Of course, I received MUCH more thorough GSW training than my pop. (Charity Hospital- New Orleans 60's vs late 80's-mid 90's)

 

[Ben Loper]

@Bill
My father treated a lot of facial trauma from MVA's back in the 60's and 70's. Back in the days of near non-existent seat belt use and metal dashboards. The frequency and severity of the injuries were MUCH higher than when I trained for the same profession 25yrs later. The majority of my trauma training was interpersonal violence and much less MVA as the mechanism of injury. Of course, I received MUCH more thorough GSW training than my pop. (Charity Hospital- New Orleans 60's vs late 80's-mid 90's)

I commend you for that work, I'm glad there are people out there to save us and put us back together.

 

[172andyou]

My father treated a lot of facial trauma from MVA's back in the 60's and 70's. Back in the days of near non-existent seat belt use and metal dashboards. The frequency and severity of the injuries were MUCH higher than when I trained for the same profession 25yrs later.

And that's even after our mothers prevented so many injuries by reaching across the front seat and holding us back from the dashboard with one arm!

 

[ateamer]

@Bill
My father treated a lot of facial trauma from MVA's back in the 60's and 70's. Back in the days of near non-existent seat belt use and metal dashboards. The frequency and severity of the injuries were MUCH higher than when I trained for the same profession 25yrs later. The majority of my trauma training was interpersonal violence and much less MVA as the mechanism of injury. Of course, I received MUCH more thorough GSW training than my pop. (Charity Hospital- New Orleans 60's vs late 80's-mid 90's)

I started in law enforcement in the 80s and retired in 2017. The number of fatal and serious injury crashes during that period went down impressively. People are now surviving crashes that used to be fatal, and walking away from wrecks that used to be maiming. Rollovers used to mostly be fatal, but these days it’s common for the only injuries to be bruises. Between cars’ safety features and modern medicine, the good ol’ days are right now.

 

[wayneda40]

when were aviation crash test dummies invented? (and please don't say 'the date of this incident'!)

Here's one example:

2012 Boeing 727 crash experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[eman1200]

Here's one example:

2012 Boeing 727 crash experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

so, in general, slightly after the electra's time......

 

[Racerx]

OMG. How did they survive that?! I don't think that one's going to fly again sadly.

It'll buff right out.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I started in law enforcement in the 80s and retired in 2017. The number of fatal and serious injury crashes during that period went down impressively. People are now surviving crashes that used to be fatal, and walking away from wrecks that used to be maiming. Rollovers used to mostly be fatal, but these days it’s common for the only injuries to be bruises. Between cars’ safety features and modern medicine, the good ol’ days are right now.

Seat belts are a big change. Back in the 80's they were still semi-optional in some circles. Now you would be viewed as a lunatic for driving without one. And cars are a whole lot more aggressive about warning you. My Tesla is basically undrivable with the belt unbuckled. The shrieking is impossible to ignore.

 

[Jim K]

I’d bet it gets fully restored.

Seems like it was the hardest to rebuild part of the plane that got smashed. I didn't realize they were million dollar planes though.

That brings us back to the question of who the hell bases a million+ dollar airplane at that tiny grass strip?

 

[francisco collazos]

And that's even after our mothers prevented so many injuries by reaching across the front seat and holding us back from the dashboard with one arm!

I remember sitting in my friends parents station wagon. There were back seats in the back of the station wagon that opened up from the floor of the cargo area.

 

[kyleb]

And that's even after our mothers prevented so many injuries by reaching across the front seat and holding us back from the dashboard with one arm!

Ciggie in the left hand, right hand on the wheel…. How in the world did they manage to catch us?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Ciggie in the left hand, right hand on the wheel…. How in the world did they manage to catch us?

They made ‘em tougher back then. My grandma hiked the Grand Canyon on the 4th of July with a pint of water and half a sandwich. I wish I was half as tough as my grandma.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The Greek gods may have been mythical, but Mount Olympus is a real place. In fact, there are at least two of them: one in Greece, and one in Washington state.

And one in Wisconsin Dells with America's tallest water slide. https://www.mtolympuspark.com/

I thought you were supposed to start with "Caffeinate".

Pilot Priority List

xkcd.com

Alt text: "Celebrate: Serve passengers tiered cakes shaped like the airspace class diagram."

Hmmmm. Not sure that adding frontal crash protection to a plane would be that practical.

View attachment 130663


Perhaps an opportunity here for the new Dan Gryder STC??

That looks like something I'd expect to see driving around Camp Scholler in Oshkosh.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Perhaps an opportunity here for the new Dan Gryder STC??

STC…Swerving Tree Crash?

 

[kyleb]

STC…Swerving Tree Crash?

Surviving the crash?

 

[Piperonca]

Scavenging The Crash?

 

[midwestpa24]

Seat belts are a big change. Back in the 80's they were still semi-optional in some circles. Now you would be viewed as a lunatic for driving without one. And cars are a whole lot more aggressive about warning you. My Tesla is basically undrivable with the belt unbuckled. The shrieking is impossible to ignore.

I grew up in the 80s. No one I knew wore a seatbelt, unless you had one of those fancy cars with the automatic shoulder harness. As a kid my seat in the car was on the fold down armrest in the middle.of the front bench seat of my dad's Oldsmobile. I don't recall ever being in a car seat or booster seat as a kid, today they are required until they practically can drive! If I remember right, seat belts didn't become law until around the time I learned to drive, and we hated them. Today you almost feel naked without it.

 

[FastEddieB]

Seat belts are a big change.

I still recall an article I saw in Popular Science or Popular Mechanics back in the 1950’s. Virtually no cars had seat belts, and the article was about a pilot who had the revolutionary idea of putting a seatbelt in his car, complete with photo! I don’t think anyone could have foreseen nearly universal seatbelt use at the time.

Can’t find that article, but did find this one about the history of seatbelts in cars:

Innovations in Driving: The Seat Belt

I remember the precise moment when I vowed never to drive, or even ride, in a car without wearing a snugged-up seat belt. It was the afternoon of Sunday, May 25, 1975, during ABC’s broadcast – tape-delayed back in those days – of the Indianapolis 500. Lap 126, for those keeping score at home.

www.popsci.com

 

[GaryM]

I grew up in the 80s. No one I knew wore a seatbelt, unless you had one of those fancy cars with the automatic shoulder harness. As a kid my seat in the car was on the fold down armrest in the middle.of the front bench seat of my dad's Oldsmobile. I don't recall ever being in a car seat or booster seat as a kid, today they are required until they practically can drive! If I remember right, seat belts didn't become law until around the time I learned to drive, and we hated them. Today you almost feel naked without it.

I was pretty young when Dad brought home seat belt kits and installed them himself in our car and pickup. No one I knew had them at that time.

A few years later, we were among the first to have the third, high brake light, installed by Dad from a kit on the car's hat shelf.

I only figured out later he got ahead of the curve on those because at the time he was working at a wrecking yard. Watching smashed cars getting winched off of the flatbeds all day got him thinking...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

They were all very fortunate that there was no fire.

That's why it's better to be thrown clear than to be trapped by a safety belt that won't come a-loose.

 

[geezer]

My first new car was a 1960 Chevrolet. Seat belts were not an option.

My brother and I were both active in the Hot Rod game, and both had seen crashes where seat belts had saved a friend, even though the car had been destroyed.

Shortly after buying that car, I bought 2 sets of high quality lap belts, and installed them in the front seats, using much larger steel plates with the fender washers supplied. I have never owned a car since that did not have seat belts, which has been wasted money, as I have never had an accident that made them useful. Sarcasm here!

In commercial airliners, I keep the belt fastened and tight, and in the planes that I fly GA, the same is true. Our Cessna's were retrofitted with shoulder harness, and I keep then just loose enough to reach the controls.

After all those years, riding in busses and trains, I am uncomfortable without a seat belt in place while in motion.

I have no doubt that the Volvo statement the the 20% of drivers who do not use seat belts have 2/3rds of the fatal accidents.

Years ago, a close friend had a collision with the side of a tractor trailer going the opposite direction, spun 360 degrees down the side of the truck/trailer, both doors of his '30's coupe opened and were smashed, but he remained inside, with his dual shoulder strap and belt. The only body part salvaged was the trunk lid.

He had no injuries, and will soon celebrate his 90th birthday.

That accident occurred shortly before I bought that new Chevrolet.

 

[midwestpa24]

I have no doubt that the Volvo statement the the 20% of drivers who do not use seat belts have 2/3rds of the fatal accidents.

Likewise with wearing helmets on motorcycles. I still can't believe they aren't required like seatbelts. Nearly two decades as an emergency responder, and every motorcycle fatality I've been to could have been prevented by a helmet. None were the graphic high speed crashes you would imagine, most were lower speed and dumped the bike or went over the handlebars and smashed their skulls on the pavement.

 

[Daleandee]

Likewise with wearing helmets on motorcycles. I still can't believe they aren't required like seatbelts. Nearly two decades as an emergency responder, and every motorcycle fatality. I've been to could have been prevented by a helmet. None were the graphic high speed crashes you would imagine, most were lower speed and dumped the bike or went over the handlebars and smashed their skulls on the pavement.

Absolutely! Fifteen years ago I had a driver hit me from behind while I was in the right lane of the interstate (he was flying and I never saw him coming). By the grace of God and a helmet my life was saved. The motorcycle was destroyed. It hurt a lot for a few days and a little for a lot of days but there was no real lasting injury.

When I met my wife she knew that I rode motorcycles and told me that I had to wear a helmet as it was the law. I told her it wasn't in this state and she said it was her law! I didn't mind as I always have. A family member I ride with was a training officer for EMS and they always wore a helmet. I knew if they thought it was a good idea then I had made the correct decision ...

 

[TCABM]

… Nearly two decades as an emergency responder, and every motorcycle fatality I've been to could have been prevented by a helmet...

Not arguing, I’m ATGATT and know the helmet can help but is no guarantee.

In the three MC fatals where I knew the deceased, a helmet would not have mattered. One was hamburgered by an 18 wheeler at the Eglin ACC gate & Niceville cutodf, one was t-boned by an ‘80s era Volvo in Aviano, one t-boned the barrier on an overpass and then got hit by a vehicle below on I-44 in OKC. The last one’s toxicology was interesting as was his family situation; both were probably contributing factors at 0230.

 

[SToL]

I'm sure Dan would want everybody to stop posting comments until the NTSB final report came out
Avoiding making any butts jokes here.

Oh the irony!

Hope everyone is is well.

 

[172andyou]

Likewise with wearing helmets on motorcycles. I still can't believe they aren't required like seatbelts. Nearly two decades as an emergency responder, and every motorcycle fatality I've been to could have been prevented by a helmet. None were the graphic high speed crashes you would imagine, most were lower speed and dumped the bike or went over the handlebars and smashed their skulls on the pavement.

Yeah, it's like the morons who refuse to wear seatbelts because they "want to be thrown free". Even if you ignore that as being stupidly invalid even in a rollover, it also ignores the bigger deal that the vast majority of wrecks are not rollovers and now you're going to be eating your steering wheel at 20, 40 or 60 MPH.

 

[Hengelo]

Still ain’t no cure for stupid.

 

[wayneda40]

Yeah, it's like the morons who refuse to wear seatbelts because they "want to be thrown free". Even if you ignore that as being stupidly invalid even in a rollover, it also ignores the bigger deal that the vast majority of wrecks are not rollovers and now you're going to be eating your steering wheel at 20, 40 or 60 MPH.

BTW, in the original video of Gryder's about this accident it appears that neither the left or right seat pilots had (or were using) shoulder harnesses. Who these days doesn't upgrade their expensive aircraft with at least a shoulder harness?! Would have almost certainly avoided at least the head injuries.

 

[mcdewey]

Likewise with wearing helmets on motorcycles. I still can't believe they aren't required like seatbelts. Nearly two decades as an emergency responder, and every motorcycle fatality I've been to could have been prevented by a helmet. None were the graphic high speed crashes you would imagine, most were lower speed and dumped the bike or went over the handlebars and smashed their skulls on the pavement.

Old joke:
What do they call motorcyclists who ride without a helmet?
Organ donors.

 

[Half Fast]

Old joke:
What do they call motorcyclists who ride without a helmet?
Organ donors.

If you don’t think your brain is worth protecting with a helmet, you’re right.

 

[Fearless Tower]

BTW, in the original video of Gryder's about this accident it appears that neither the left or right seat pilots had (or were using) shoulder harnesses. Who these days doesn't upgrade their expensive aircraft with at least a shoulder harness?! Would have almost certainly avoided at least the head injuries.

Ever been in a Lockheed Electra?

It's similar to a DC-3 in that the windscreen is literally in your face. It's a tight cockpit. Shoulder harness won't keep your head from hitting it.

 

[woxof]

woxof said:
On touchdown, always try a smooth initial brake application(except perhaps on a short runway). If you add a lot of brake quickly at first and there is a brake without pressure, directional control will be a problem. If you smoothly applied increasing brake and discover a problem, you may still have an option to do a touch and go, depending on the runway and surrounding area. Adding power makes the rudder more effective and rudder alone can straighten the aircraft for the touch and go.
StraightnLevel said:
Thinking beyond this option, it puts you back in the air, and still without brake pressure on one side - but at least you know what you're dealing with. That's better than the result we see on the video.

Now what? Aside from slowing your approach and touchdown speed to the bare minimum, what else can you do to deal with this situation? Is it better to run off the end of the runway slowly or risk a low-speed side-loading gear failure from trying to turn onto a taxiway too fast?

Once back in the air, you can now examine your options(which will vary from case to case) and then come up with a plan. What type of aircraft(Piper Cub could find a nice grass runway where brakes are not needed whereas a Lockheed twin is likely different. Where can one go to find a long runway or a wide runway or a runway where there are few obstacles or where the winds are more ideal, what is the fuel status, ARFF, etc, etc. Now you can plan.

 

[RyanShort1]

Ever been in a Lockheed Electra?

It's similar to a DC-3 in that the windscreen is literally in your face. It's a tight cockpit. Shoulder harness won't keep your head from hitting it.

Is there room for a helmet?

 

[OneCharlieTango]

I’ve been in a DC-3 and I’m pretty sure shoulder harnesses would be protective.

 

[geezer]

The real right decision would have been an immediate go around, land at a very long runway.

The mechanic there may not be cheap, but much cheaper than the present status.

 

[Dave Theisen]

The real right decision would have been an immediate go around, land at a very long runway.

The mechanic there may not be cheap, but much cheaper than the present status.

Pretty short strip. By the time they got on the brakes and realized they had a problem, I don’t think a go-around was feasible.

 

[FlightofTwo]

And with an unlocked tailwheel, once it went, they were pretty much along for the ride, and adding full power and trying to do a go-around could have ended up worse than they already got.

 

[172andyou]

Pretty short strip. By the time they got on the brakes and realized they had a problem, I don’t think a go-around was feasible.

Yeah, I'm not fan of Dan's, but by the time an issue became apparent a go around would have resulted in a much higher energy crash into the trees at the end of the strip.

Based on what we know today, the second guessing should be on what might have been done differently to prevent the brake failure to begin with.

 

[Klaus M]

Yeah, I'm not fan of Dan's, but by the time an issue became apparent a go around would have resulted in a much higher energy crash into the trees at the end of the strip.

Based on what we know today, the second guessing should be on what might have been done differently to prevent the brake failure to begin with.

Working on aircraft with no factory support for parts, they had to fabricate the brake hose. If you fabricate anything you test it. In this case the aircraft should have been put on jacks and the gear swung. Most likely the brake hose would have failed in the shop and this would not have happened.

Even if you replace a brake hose on a supported Piper, Cessna or Mooney the gear should be swung and inspected that nothing is touching or under stress.

 

[172andyou]

Working on aircraft with no factory support for parts, they had to fabricate the brake hose. If you fabricate anything you test it. In this case the aircraft should have been put on jacks and the gear swung. Most likely the brake hose would have failed in the shop and this would not have happened.

Even if you replace a brake hose on a supported Piper, Cessna or Mooney the gear should be swung and inspected that nothing is touching or under stress.

Yep. That seems valid. And the pilot's comment imply, though doesn't outright state, that they didn't do that test.