your difficult maneuver

Peter Ha

Peter Ha

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Curious what other student pilots experience are.
My most difficult maneuver in my training:
Steep turns

When I feel that 1.5G (45deg)or 2G (60deg) it feel like ton of bricks on my head! :eek:
I kept busting my altitude during turns. Tip from pilot friend to look over the cowling...worked like a charm.
 
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Reminds of a student I had in the Army. During combat maneuvering flight (CMF) he complained about the Gs and getting light headed from the 60 degree banks. I joked and said we didn’t have G suits so he’d have to just suck it up. :D
 
During private-pilot training, it took me a long time to learn how to land without assistance. During commercial training, I never really got to the point of having confidence in my ability to do lazy eights and chandelles within specifications.
 
Ryanb said:
The maneuver of reaching into my back pocket and lifting out my checkbook was always the hardest for me.
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All my aviation account spending is pre-programmed to just suck it directly out of my pockets - no reaching required.

The maneuver I have most difficulty with is putting the fuel nozzle into the tanks of the Aztec. I feel I should be getting a pre-approved second mortgage in advance of that exercise every time.
 
Does "landing" count as a "manuever"? If so, I'll say that was the hardest part of the PPL. And I can't remember any trick that magically helped me through learning it. Just bouncy bouncy practice.

Otherwise, I nominate the Lazy 8, or the power-off 180 (for CPL).
 
I found that the whole key to the lazy 8 is just fly lazy. Give it the initial climb/turn and then let go of the yoke. GA planes are stable, so it basically does the rest of it for you. Just help it a little. 8's on pylons were a little more aggravating.
 
Turns around a point.
Ironically, I now do them fairly often snapping photos through the storm window in my Warrior.
Interestingly, I had no problem with steep turns. Hint: goose the throttle as you roll into the turn.
 
Slow turns. Was up the other day with instructor and she had me hold altitude at 50kts in a 172. Then after a minute of staring at the sky she told me to make a 90 degree turn. I was sure I’d wing-over into a spin because I was working to keep wings level.
 
If landings count...gusty crosswind landings with friggin' trees around.
Haven't done commerical yet but it takes me 2 tries before I get a power off 180 right.
 
Most difficult was maneuvering the money past the wife.

Second most difficult was steep turns on a hazy or cloudy day when I didn’t have a clear view of the horizon.

Clear day? Not a problem. Roll in, slight bump of throttle, back pressure on the stick, trim out the pressure. Then just hold a spot on the windshield on the horizon and track it around. But take away the horizon and I tracked all over the place. Took a while to learn.

But landings are what seemed to take forever.
 
Landings, then steep turns, as a student.

Started instrument lessons. #3 last week. I can’t get my right turns consistent under the hood.

Or my landings again either!! Funny story (it wasn’t at the time). On lesson #2 after sweating as much as on my first solo and almost 1.5 hrs under the hood, we did a GPS approach at home - I had lost all concept of my place in space and the crosswind - I was gonna go around - my instructor had to take the controls...I couldn’t figure out how to get the plane on centerline and on the ground. Other factors - instead of taking foggles off, I just peered through the cutouts and had no peripheral; And we were 80 kts on short final where I’m used to being at 60. That was embarrassing! Did lesson #3 and ended with the ILS...that was fun. I redeemed myself - or so I thought - when CFI said I needed to be aiming for the white markers, not the numbers. Lots to learn.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Landings, then steep turns, as a student.

Started instrument lessons. #3 last week. I can’t get my right turns consistent under the hood.

Or my landings again either!! Funny story (it wasn’t at the time). On lesson #2 after sweating as much as on my first solo and almost 1.5 hrs under the hood, we did a GPS approach at home - I had lost all concept of my place in space and the crosswind - I was gonna go around - my instructor had to take the controls...I couldn’t figure out how to get the plane on centerline and on the ground. Other factors - instead of taking foggles off, I just peered through the cutouts and had no peripheral; And we were 80 kts on short final where I’m used to being at 60. That was embarrassing! Did lesson #3 and ended with the ILS...that was fun. I redeemed myself - or so I thought - when CFI said I needed to be aiming for the white markers, not the numbers. Lots to learn.
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I haven't done any IR lessons yet but my CFII had me shoot a ILS approach to end my flight review (fun!). He could just tell that my PPL brain was locked onto my usual landing the numbers...and being below the glideslope. That one is gonna take some unlearning. Its funny as a PPL I use the first 1,000ft marker for just one thing. Its my takeoff abort. The 182, unless heavily loaded in summer, is always off at or on the first 1000ft marker (no flaps). I think the only time I land that far was on soft field practice or wrestling with our tree line weird winds.
 
Sinistar said:
I haven't done any IR lessons yet but my CFII had me shoot a ILS approach to end my flight review (fun!). He could just tell that my PPL brain was locked onto my usual landing the numbers...and being below the glideslope. That one is gonna take some unlearning. Its funny as a PPL I use the first 1,000ft marker for just one thing. Its my takeoff abort. The 182, unless heavily loaded in summer, is always off at or on the first 1000ft marker (no flaps). I think the only time I land that far was on soft field practice or wrestling with our tree line weird winds.
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The 182 makes the "ground effect" part of soft field takeoffs pretty much nonexistent. It's damn near impossible to hold it down and keep it from climbing at the weights I usually fly at
 
Two fun things in the 182.

The deck angle on a short field takeoff - the first time I felt like I was in big taildragger having to look out the side windows. And the damn plane is almost immediately in the air begging for the yoke to be pushed ahead. But you really got to push it ahead to get back into the ground effect.

The deck angle during power on stalls especially in spring and fall when it's cool but not kill-the-engine cold. We had one that it just wouldn't break and stall. Felt like the deck angle was pushing 80 degrees just hanging on the prop. Aborted since not enough air over the cowl to keep it cool.
 
Roll on takeoff? Oh wait. I've never done that.
 
Don’t you guys do ground reference maneuvers anymore? Those were easily the most challenging doing perfect circles around a point and esses along the road at 800 feet in a 20 knot wind 90 degrees off your course. Trying to trace that perfect track over the ground and keep the ball centered. At least in a Cub it was hard with all that adverse yaw and no power. Easy plane to fly but difficult to fly gracefully when it was on the edge.
 
Steep turns, really? I always enjoyed them. Still do.

I always thought Chandelles required the most effort and connecting the lazy 8's and making them pretty was difficult.
 
Silvaire said:
Don’t you guys do ground reference maneuvers anymore? Those were easily the most challenging doing perfect circles around a point and esses along the road at 800 feet in a 20 knot wind 90 degrees off your course. Trying to trace that perfect track over the ground and keep the ball centered. At least in a Cub it was hard with all that adverse yaw and no power. Easy plane to fly but difficult to fly gracefully when it was on the edge.
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Can you follow a track along the ground?

As you set up for a turn around a point, pick out spots on the ground that map out the circle at 12, 9, 6, and 3 o’clock. A bush, a tree, a barn, a patch of sand, a blade of grass, whatever. Then just visualize the circle and fly arcs to each reference, checking the center point regularly and making any minor corrections to maintain a good circle. In maintaining the track you will automatically be compensating for wind.

Remember: it’s a ground reference maneuver. Reference the ground.
 
FastEddieB said:
Getting Lazy-8’s to work out just so.

I’m more used to pretty dramatic wingovers in my old Citabria, maxing out at about 60° of bank. Those seemed pretty easy. The small bank angles allowed on Lazy-8’s made the second portion of each one seem agonizingly slow.
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This.
The issue with lazy 8s is that it is a very watered down version of the actual maneuver from yesteryear.
Ever wonder why it's in the "approved aerobatic maneuvers" section of the POH? At the pitch and back angles used in the ACS it is hardly aerobatic.
The whole thing about visualizing the 45, 90 and 135 positions is complete garbage and unnecessary if the maneuver is flown properly. That is: lazily.

The Finer Points guy does a great job of explaining in his video. Two subtle control inputs in the beginning and then do nothing until it's time to roll wings level.
The plane does the rest using simple physics.
This is me letting the plane do all the work recently. Not my best work, I mostly like it because the lighting is cool.

Here's the one to watch
 
IK04 said:
Steep turns, really? I always enjoyed them. Still do.

I always thought Chandelles required the most effort and connecting the lazy 8's and making them pretty was difficult.
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A key item I discovered to both Chandelles and Lazy 8’s was to “slow down” your mental processing by saying what you are doing, need to do, or about to do..... slowly.... as you perform the maneuver. Sorta like you see in the Blue Angels documentaries as Boss talks over frequency.

Chandelles, you will hear me saying

“Chandelle right. First the bank (30°), now the pitch and the power. Remember right rudder. Hold the pitch, hold the pitch. There’s 90, hold the pitch and start easing the bank. Hold the pitch, no stall horn. 30 degrees to go, hold the pitch. Now wings level, ease out the pitch. Ease the pitch. Ease and reduce power. Reduce power a bit more, hold heading. Recovery done.”

For Lazy 8’s in the 172, it also helps to know an RPM setting that really works for you. Also, which direction to go first that makes things more successful than going the other way. For me, that’s about 2150-2200 RPM and going to the right. Then you will hear me saying, slowly enough it sounds like I’m yawning as I do it.

“Power set, plane trimmed for hands off level. Okay to the right. Here’s slight bank (not quite 10°), right rudder and pitch up. Hold the pitch, mind the bank. Here is 45 and the downward slice begins. Very slight relax. There is 90 and nose through horizon, slowly allow the nose to come back up. Very slight pressure if needed. There is 135, slowly level wings and what do I need to nail altitude? Now level my wings and do what I said for altitude (often a small forward pressure to stop a climb). Now to the left....”. and repeat the slow chant.

My other secret on lazy 8’s is to use a good outside visual reference such as a long straight highway or road, and put the heading bug on my entry heading. The outside road helps with the 45, 90, and 135 points and the bug to make sure I finish as close to my entry heading as possible.

Anyhow, ever since I started verbalizing during the commercial maneuvers, I have been flying them within ACS standards every time.

And commercial pilot maneuvers are to be performed pretty slow and stately (the exceptions being accelerated stall and the engine fire descent). If you rush things, you increase both the difficulty and likelihood you will be out of standards.
 
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Half Fast said:
Can you follow a track along the ground?

As you set up for a turn around a point, pick out spots on the ground that map out the circle at 12, 9, 6, and 3 o’clock. A bush, a tree, a barn, a patch of sand, a blade of grass, whatever.
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A much better choice is a 4-way intersection with each road at 90° of each other. It’s too easy to forget which bush, tree, barn, or cow you chose. The intersection makes a good solid point to “pivot” around and judge distance for correcting your bank angle. And the roads make it easy to keep count and maintain situational awareness on where you are on the compass.

As soon as my instructor had me doing this for my steep spirals versus choosing a random bit of vegetation or structure, my steep spirals noticeably improved, and with airspeed tightly held to best glide, getting three full turns with minimal drift and with specs for altitude loss got much easier to do.
 
AggieMike88 said:
A much better choice is a 4-way intersection with each road at 90° of each other. It’s too easy to forget which bush, tree, barn, or cow you chose. The intersection makes a good solid point to “pivot” around and judge distance for correcting your bank angle. And the roads make it easy to keep count and maintain situational awareness on where you are on the compass.

As soon as my instructor had me doing this for my steep spirals versus choosing a random bit of vegetation or structure, my steep spirals noticeably improved, and with airspeed tightly held to best glide, getting three full turns with minimal drift and with specs for altitude loss got much easier to do.
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Absoulutely! If an intersection is available then use it, by all means. My practice area was mostly swamp and marsh.
 
Half Fast said:
Absoulutely! If an intersection is available then use it, by all means. My practice area was mostly swamp and marsh.
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Ahh. And finding opposing gators at altitude is quite a trick
 
AggieMike88 said:
Ahh. And finding opposing gators at altitude is quite a trick
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Not too bad, really. The size gators we have here are pretty easy to see if you’re below 5000’ AGL. You can tell one from the other by the pattern of scales on their backs.
 
AggieMike88 said:
“Chandelle right. First the bank (30°), now the pitch and the power. Remember right rudder. Hold the pitch, hold the pitch. There’s 90, hold the pitch and start easing the bank. Hold the pitch, no stall horn. 30 degrees to go, hold the pitch. Now wings level, ease out the pitch. Ease the pitch. Ease and reduce power. Reduce power a bit more, hold heading. Recovery done.”
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Shouldn’t the bolded above read: “Increase the pitch, increase the pitch...”*? From entry to the 90° point the pitch should be smoothly increasing throughout. And the bank should be gradually and smoothly decreasing at a constant rate from the 90° to 180° reference points. Right?


*Maybe you meant “Hold the back pressure?”
 
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Not changing my chant this close to ride as it works for me. And instructor is happy with the end results.

the point was to have your own slow chant, and the patter that works for you
 
If that chant is working for you, by all means don’t change a thing!

I really just didn’t want anyone reading yours to come away with the idea you should “hold the pitch” through the first 90° of turn in a chandelle.

The idea of a “chant” is a good one, though. Instructors use them all the time when demonstrating new maneuvers, to keep the student aware of what’s going on throughout the maneuver.
 
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