Vfr Flight plans

[JimNtexas]

I asked this once, but nobody answered so please let me ask it again.

Let's suppose you're on my hypothetical VFR flight from Austin to Marfa Texas. Once you get away from I-10 there will not be cell coverage on the most of the ground. Nor are there a lot people milling around. ATC can't reliably hear you below 7-10000 feet. It's not like Dallas to Austin at all.

Your engine quits, you are able to land, but are injured to the extent you can't just walk out of the crash site, so you're going to be there a while.

If you have a 406 ELT or a SPOT device you can activate that, and eventually a search for you will start. The 406 search will start faster, but by now the SAR people know what a SPOT is. So if you are equipped with these devices there is probably less need for a VFR flight plan.

But let's suppose you don't have a personal beacon and either your 406 ELT was damaged in the crash, or you have only a worthless 121.5 ELT.

Nobody knows you've landed/crashed off the airport except the people waiting for you at the end of your planned route.

Have you told the people waiting for you who to call if you don't arrive?

Who did you tell them to call?

How long do you suppose it will be between your friend or family making that call to [?] will an actual search initiate?

Inquiring minds really do want to know.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

What you experienced was your shortcoming, not one related to the flightplan system.
If you ever get your IR, you are going to have to remember to call to close your flight plan if you ever land at a uncontrolled field after a approach to minimums.

Oh yes, absolutely my issue not the system.
Until I am IR and it is a part of my common routine, I am aware I'm prone to forget this so for my own sanity, I am going to skip it.

 

[flyingron]

I seem to remember a story late last year about a 172 crashing and burning at Nashville International, and nobody knew until the next day. The dude was actually trying not to be found, so definitely no flight plan or FF, but if you can crash just off the end of a towered airport and burn up, and still not be seen until the next day, then it's not unreasonable to think that crashing somewhere between Houston and DFW could go unnoticed for awhile.

As already stated, a guy on a OPEN IFR plan managed to crash and not be noticed missing until the next day as well. A flight plan itself isn't a guarantee, just another tool.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I asked this once, but nobody answered so please let me ask it again.

Let's suppose you're on my hypothetical VFR flight from Austin to Marfa Texas. Once you get away from I-10 there will not be cell coverage on the most of the ground. Nor are there a lot people milling around. ATC can't reliably hear you below 7-10000 feet. It's not like Dallas to Austin at all.

Your engine quits, you are able to land, but are injured to the extent you can't just walk out of the crash site, so you're going to be there a while.

If you have a 406 ELT or a SPOT device you can activate that, and eventually a search for you will start. The 406 search will start faster, but by now the SAR people know what a SPOT is. So if you are equipped with these devices there is probably less need for a VFR flight plan.

But let's suppose you don't have a personal beacon and either your 406 ELT was damaged in the crash, or you have only a worthless 121.5 ELT.

Nobody knows you've landed/crashed off the airport except the people waiting for you at the end of your planned route.

Have you told the people waiting for you who to call if you don't arrive?

Who did you tell them to call?

How long do you suppose it will be between your friend or family making that call to [?] will an actual search initiate?

Inquiring minds really do want to know.

Interesting variables. I have never flown out of radio coverage before.
Definitely food for thought.

 

[docmirror]

I asked this once, but nobody answered so please let me ask it again.

How long do you suppose it will be between your friend or family making that call to [?] will an actual search initiate?

Inquiring minds really do want to know.

I'll preface this by saying the YMMV, and this is only my single POV, not to construed with advice.

I have my life insurance policy setup well. Bills will be paid, life will go on. I have reasonable safety protocols not involving the feds that I rely on, or that I consider sufficient for me.

I accept responsibility for my actions or inactions as the case may be and I'll accept the consequences. A life fully lived has risks. A life involved GA has exceptional risks that cannot always be managed, or eliminated but only minimized. I choose to live that life, I'm an adult, and no one has to lift a finger if I go down somewhere and die in the wilderness.

One more time, before you quote me and go all 'yabut.....' this works for ME AND ME ONLY. Do whatever you gotta do to sleep at night and still fly GA. If that means telling 20 people where and when you're going, filing a flight plan, getting FF, checking in by text every leg, buy a SPOT, etc. whatever you gotta do to feel good, then do it. All I ask is that it not be mandated, or you let me opt out of any of the programs and systems in place to 'help' me. Thank you - no.

YMMV, YMMV, don't try this at home, objects are larger than they appear, may cause anal leakage.

 

[Velocity173]

I asked this once, but nobody answered so please let me ask it again.

Let's suppose you're on my hypothetical VFR flight from Austin to Marfa Texas. Once you get away from I-10 there will not be cell coverage on the most of the ground. Nor are there a lot people milling around. ATC can't reliably hear you below 7-10000 feet. It's not like Dallas to Austin at all.

Your engine quits, you are able to land, but are injured to the extent you can't just walk out of the crash site, so you're going to be there a while.

If you have a 406 ELT or a SPOT device you can activate that, and eventually a search for you will start. The 406 search will start faster, but by now the SAR people know what a SPOT is. So if you are equipped with these devices there is probably less need for a VFR flight plan.

But let's suppose you don't have a personal beacon and either your 406 ELT was damaged in the crash, or you have only a worthless 121.5 ELT.

Nobody knows you've landed/crashed off the airport except the people waiting for you at the end of your planned route.

Have you told the people waiting for you who to call if you don't arrive?

Who did you tell them to call?

How long do you suppose it will be between your friend or family making that call to [?] will an actual search initiate?

Inquiring minds really do want to know.

Well if they call the authorities and you gave them an ETA, then 1 hr after that SAR procedures will be started. A communications search and ALNOT will be sent out.

Your example is like a Steve Fossett scenario. Sure, if one goes flying in a remote area, no filing a flight plan, no FF, no PLB, no cell coverage and no details to family members on exactly where you're flying to...yeah that's not the best decision making around. In Steve's defense, I'd say he wanted to get away from all the technology and buzz around his life and just do a little "grass roots" flying.

 

[Palmpilot]

If it makes you feel comfortable to file a flight plan and have FF then by all means go ahead and do it. These days however with 406Mhz PLB's, cellphones and onboard GPS you're probably just as safe on your own or maybe even safer than on a filed plan 30 years ago.

Will you remember to turn on your PLB when your attention is focused on finding a safe emergency landing site and putting the aircraft down safely? If you're in a remote area, there often is no cell phone coverage. Bear in mind too, that if you don't survive the forced landing, your loved ones will want to find out what happened to you as soon as possible, and the people who come looking for you will appreciate knowing your specific routing, etc.

I'm not sure how comparing things to thirty years ago is relevant.

For any students or fresh pilots out there you're most likely going to discover sooner or later that you're not always going to fly a pre-determined straight line from point A to point B and you're almost never going to want to be shackled with the constraints of a filed flight plan. Which is why hardly anyone ever does it.

"Shackled"? If you are going to be late, or significantly divert, calling Flight Service is usually not that difficult.

The important things are that someone on the ground knows, at the very least that you're going flying and in general where you're planning to go and that you yourself have adequately planned your excursion so that the only possible interruption would be due to a mechanical malfunction.

"Only possible interruption" sounds overly optimistic to me.

In that case you have your on board GPS from which you can broadcast an accurate position when you make your 121.5 Mayday call. You have on your person a PLB and a cellphone. You have on the aircraft some rudimentary signaling and survival gear such as mirror, fire starter, a jacket or blanket and water.

Good ideas, but an emergency can be a very busy time, making it easy to forget to do things that otherwise seem easy.

A 406Mhz ELT is a good option as well as a first aid kit and maybe some food but the key is being found, not so much surviving a month in the wilderness.

I don't remember the statistics on 406 MHz ELTs, but I do remember that while they are more reliable than 121.5 models, they still fail to activate surprisingly often.

By the way, water is a more immediate need than food.

The cellphone is probably the biggest improvement in communication because on any long x-country trip you can call or text your ground contact at each fuel stop to say that you are departing on the next leg so if you do disappear THEY are the first to know rather than some giant bureaucratic entity such as FSS after you're an hour late finally calling your contact number to ask them if they know where you are.

I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember hearing statistics that showed that searches for missing aircraft typically start significantly sooner when a flight plan is filed with the "giant bureaucratic entity."

I'm not saying that I always file flight plans, but there's no need to exaggerate either their limitations, or the effectiveness of the alternatives.

 

[JimNtexas]

call the authorities

What is the phone number of the 'the authorities'? Do they answer it 24/7?

 

[Velocity173]

The "30 yrs ago" comparison is relevant for a few factors. One, the country is more populated with fewer remote areas. Cell phones didn't exist in such numbers and capabilities that they are now. ATC radar coverage and quality of radar as a whole has improved at providing FF. 406 MHZ and PLB weren't around with an exact GPS position location. Finally, pilot training is better and aircraft are far more reliable than 30 yrs ago.

 

[Palmpilot]

Sure, but if you use flight following, or fly to a towered airport, your plane's whereabouts are on record even without a flight plan. And if you carry a cell phone or use credit cards, there's a far more extensive trail.

I'm not sure that the person who said, earlier in the thread, that he doesn't like the feds knowing his comings and goings, would be likely to use flight following. As for tracking people through their cell phones and credit cards, I'm not sure those provide immediate enough information to facilitate the feds' ambushes of pilots at airports.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm waiting for someone to bring up this months Sport Pilot article where their 406 didn't go off and one guy couldn't get to his PLB.

 

[Palmpilot]

Interesting variables. I have never flown out of radio coverage before.
Definitely food for thought.

I think that the remoteness, or lack thereof, of the area you're planning to fly over, is definitely a useful factor to consider in deciding whether or not to file.

 

[Palmpilot]

The "30 yrs ago" comparison is relevant for a few factors. One, the country is more populated with fewer remote areas. Cell phones didn't exist in such numbers and capabilities that they are now. ATC radar coverage and quality of radar as a whole has improved at providing FF. 406 MHZ and PLB weren't around with an exact GPS position location. Finally, pilot training is better and aircraft are far more reliable than 30 yrs ago.

In the western half of the country, while the percentage of the area that qualifies as remote is somewhat smaller than it was thirty years ago, overall it's still going to be a high percentage. Other than that, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but that wasn't my point. My point is that when you're comparing safety-related precautions that are available to you today, what's relevant is their effectiveness today, not their effectiveness thirty years ago.

 

[acrophile]

As for tracking people through their cell phones and credit cards, I'm not sure those provide immediate enough information to facilitate the feds' ambushes of pilots at airports.

True. I'd thought he was referring to mass-surveillance concerns, but your interpretation seems more plausible.

 

[N801BH]

As already stated, a guy on a OPEN IFR plan managed to crash and not be noticed missing until the next day as well. A flight plan itself isn't a guarantee, just another tool.

Agreed......

There is a Boeing 777 that is on a IFR flight plan.... Still on the same plan 7 weeks later..........

 

[Palmpilot]

True. I'd thought he was referring to mass-surveillance concerns, but your interpretation seems more plausible.

He may have been. I was at least partially expressing my own concerns.

 

[atcpeter]

One of the most surprising things I learned in the FAA Academy is how slow the ALNOT process is, especially regarding an overdue VFR flight plan. Nothing happens until an hour past your due date. Then they start calling the origin and destination towers (or airport manager if uncontrolled) to physically check if the plane is on the ramp. They also call the contact you list on your flight plan. Then they start checking every airport within 50 miles on either side of a straight line between the origin and destination, sending out the sheriff to check on remote airports. After all that is exhausted, then they will activate search and rescue teams, but it helps a lot to have an actual search area and not just a 100-mile-wide corridor that is potentially 200 miles long.

Hearing that was enough to convince me not even to bother filing a VFR flight plan. I'd rather have someone notice right away and have a relatively specific area to start searching. I'll go with flight following any day, even if that means flying higher than I need to just to be under radar/radio coverage. I also don't have a 406MHz xpdr or a PRB, so maybe that would change the risk calculation if I did.

In this day and age, it's more useful to teach student pilots all of the available tools in an emergency situation, and the pros and cons of each. VFR flight plans feel antiquated in today's flying environment, but I'm sure for some pilots who understand the risks, they still make the most sense over other options.

 

[Silvaire]

Will you remember to turn on your PLB when your attention is focused on finding a safe emergency landing site and putting the aircraft down safely? If you're in a remote area, there often is no cell phone coverage. Bear in mind too, that if you don't survive the forced landing, your loved ones will want to find out what happened to you as soon as possible, and the people who come looking for you will appreciate knowing your specific routing, etc.

I'm not sure how comparing things to thirty years ago is relevant.



"Shackled"? If you are going to be late, or significantly divert, calling Flight Service is usually not that difficult.



"Only possible interruption" sounds overly optimistic to me.



Good ideas, but an emergency can be a very busy time, making it easy to forget to do things that otherwise seem easy.



I don't remember the statistics on 406 MHz ELTs, but I do remember that while they are more reliable than 121.5 models, they still fail to activate surprisingly often.

By the way, water is a more immediate need than food.



I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember hearing statistics that showed that searches for missing aircraft typically start significantly sooner when a flight plan is filed with the "giant bureaucratic entity."

I'm not saying that I always file flight plans, but there's no need to exaggerate either their limitations, or the effectiveness of the alternatives.

I was just expressing my thoughts on the subject, wasn't looking for a big argument

sheesh...

 

[silver-eagle]

The authorities would start with 911 and progress from there. I would hope the locals would get the FAA or a local airport manager involved who, we hope, is smart enough to get the FAA involved.
As to filing AND opening a VFR flight plan, it's like insurance. If you drive your car with too little or none at all, the risk you take is damage or injury you need to cover. It would be the same with a VFR flight plan or telling your family, friends, airport, or the VFR flight plan you leave in the car. It's additional insurance should things happen.
The Coast Guard by the way suggests boaters have an established "FLOAT" plan. Let the marina know, your family know, leave a copy in your car, etc. Someone might be able to call in the appropriate parties if you go missing.
The honest truth is, unless you are with someone, there still exists the possibility you will die alone. All the backup you have, all the insurance you have, all those preventative steps might not be enough. It's a risk you take. That's life.
Filing a VFR plan and using it is just more insurance.

 

[silver-eagle]

I'm waiting for someone to bring up this months Sport Pilot article where their 406 didn't go off and one guy couldn't get to his PLB.

If you are not wearing your safety equipment, chances are pretty good they won't be around if you crash. If you have a PLB, it should be secured on your person, not in the backseat.

 

[Palmpilot]

I was just expressing my thoughts on the subject, wasn't looking for a big argument

sheesh...

Same here.

 

[MAKG1]

Interesting variables. I have never flown out of radio coverage before.
Definitely food for thought.

I have. Pretty much any significant mountains, close to terrain, will shadow you. It doesn't even have to be that remote. I've lost contact with NorCal between VPBBR and of VPCQZ at 2000. Take a peek at skyvector. It's not remote at all. And when this happened, the neighboring approach (Travis) faded very quickly.

To some of the other folks, I think they vastly underestimate the scale of a blind search. A 50 mile wide strip 100 miles long is 5000 square miles. Grid searches are done 50 square miles at a time; probability of detection in mountains or forest is 10% or less. That means 1000 searches. They each take 15-30 minutes for one pass (depending on how much false garbage there is that you have to check out), not counting time out of grid. That means at least 250 hours. There are very likely to be no more than a couple of aircraft available (there are dozens in whole states). Of course these are done in fair weather, daylight only, if you want to actually find something and not kill searchers, so accomplishing such a search can easily take several days and may take weeks.

So, let someone know where you are, eh? A radar track or position report can make that search area vastly smaller. And if you file a flight plan (and why wouldn't you?) make it accurate. Call FSS and refile if you change your mind.

 

[Silvaire]

If you are not wearing your safety equipment, chances are pretty good they won't be around if you crash. If you have a PLB, it should be secured on your person, not in the backseat.

Right, I have a light weight fishing vest that has the basic stuff in it - PLB, handheld Vertex, signal mirror, matches, whistle, multi-tool and a couple of water packs. I just trained myself to always put that thing on every time I go flying. You have to make it light and comfortable though, otherwise you're not going to do it.

 

[Cykoguy]

I am a fairly new pilot but I don't file unless I am going on a long cross country. I have a few 2-3 hour flights planned for the coming months and plan to file VFR and get FF.

My question is those that do file if you also get FF how often are you able to get them to open/close instead of calling up FSS?

 

[MarkZ]

ATC doesn't open or close VFR flight plans.

 

[Velocity173]

ATC doesn't open or close VFR flight plans.

Come on Mark. You guys have plenty of spare time to devote to opening and closing VFR flight plans.

 

[acrophile]

My question is those that do file if you also get FF how often are you able to get them to open/close instead of calling up FSS?

As noted earlier in this thread, if you use LMFS, you can open your VFR flight plan from your smartphone by simply clicking a link just before takeoff. Then you don't have to bother with radioing FSS while flying.

 

[flyingron]

I've been on the receiving end of an ALNOT once. We had a pilot file to our airport and not close his plan. Of course, it was the night of the airpark HOA meeting and I'd not yet set up the airport manager number to ring my cell. I come home and some visiting pilots who were waiting at our house turn to me:

CHIP: The FAA called.
ME: What did they want?
CHIP I don't know I didn't answer the phone.
ME: Then how do you know it was the FAA?
CHIP: It was on the caller ID.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Going from near buffalo to baltimore at night, nice night, good vis. 15 years ago, mooney. Worked myself into a snit" single engine, night, central pa. Few lights, what if this thing quit??!!" Never again flew at night single engine. I don't think a twin would bother me but I don't know how to fly one and can't afford one. Does this bother many others?

No. Last I saw, the rate of aircraft engine failures is around 1 for every 150,000 hours flown. I figure that if I fly 150 hours a year for the rest of my life, I'll end up with about 7,000 hours total and have about a 95% chance of getting through it all without an engine failure EVER, much less at night or in IMC.

I still try to fly smart, but night doesn't scare me. I think the benefits of flying at night - Smooth air, easy to see other traffic, the ability to get home and other operational advantages that keep me flying and thus keep my skills from getting rusty - far outweigh the tiny chance I'd have an engine failure at night.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

For any students or fresh pilots out there you're most likely going to discover sooner or later that you're not always going to fly a pre-determined straight line from point A to point B and you're almost never going to want to be shackled with the constraints of a filed flight plan. Which is why hardly anyone ever does it.

How exactly are you "shackled" with "constraints" by filing a VFR flight plan?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The "30 yrs ago" comparison is relevant for a few factors. One, the country is more populated with fewer remote areas. Cell phones didn't exist in such numbers and capabilities that they are now. ATC radar coverage and quality of radar as a whole has improved at providing FF. 406 MHZ and PLB weren't around with an exact GPS position location. Finally, pilot training is better and aircraft are far more reliable than 30 yrs ago.

Ummm... I doubt it. We're still flying the same airplanes we were flying 30 years ago, and they haven't gotten any newer! I just looked - 88.4% of single-engine piston aircraft on the FAA registry are over 30 years old!

 

[Velocity173]

Ummm... I doubt it. We're still flying the same airplanes we were flying 30 years ago, and they haven't gotten any newer! I just looked - 88.4% of single-engine piston aircraft on the FAA registry are over 30 years old!

Yeah...the last sentence was a bit of sarcasm on my part.

 

[Silvaire]

How exactly are you "shackled" with "constraints" by filing a VFR flight plan?

Depends on the type of flying you do. If you've never taken off on a Saturday morning with no specific destination or itinerary etched in stone then I don't suppose it would matter.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Depends on the type of flying you do. If you've never taken off on a Saturday morning with no specific destination or itinerary etched in stone then I don't suppose it would matter.

Well, I usually have an idea of my initial direction of travel before takeoff.

But, I think VFR flight plans are designed for those who are making a VFR cross country. Personally, I don't use 'em - Too many times I've changed plans and/or forgotten to close them, and I just decided they were too much of a hassle. They've certainly gotten better with the ability to open/close from ForeFlight or via text, though.

I got the feeling you meant that you had to go exactly as planned and not deviate without permission, a la an IFR flight plan. There's not really any constraints with a VFR flight plan, you just have to call and close it within a half hour of the ETA, or call on the radio and update FSS. You can still go on sightseeing side trips, etc.

 

[Jaybird180]

Well, I usually have an idea of my initial direction of travel before takeoff.

But, I think VFR flight plans are designed for those who are making a VFR cross country. Personally, I don't use 'em - Too many times I've changed plans and/or forgotten to close them, and I just decided they were too much of a hassle. They've certainly gotten better with the ability to open/close from ForeFlight or via text, though.

I got the feeling you meant that you had to go exactly as planned and not deviate without permission, a la an IFR flight plan. There's not really any constraints with a VFR flight plan, you just have to call and close it within a half hour of the ETA, or call on the radio and update FSS. You can still go on sightseeing side trips, etc.

My spin instructor and I made an excursion inside the 10-mile circle of doom (DC-FRZ) for "sightseeing". As long as you communicate intentions, they dont send the combat helo after you.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My spin instructor and I made an excursion inside the 10-mile circle of doom (DC-FRZ) for "sightseeing". As long as you communicate intentions, they dont send the combat helo after you.

Whaaaaaaaa???????? Really? How? POIDH!!!!

 

[azure]

I got the feeling you meant that you had to go exactly as planned and not deviate without permission, a la an IFR flight plan. There's not really any constraints with a VFR flight plan, you just have to call and close it within a half hour of the ETA, or call on the radio and update FSS. You can still go on sightseeing side trips, etc.

I got the feeling he meant that if you don't stick to a direct route (or whatever you file), you compromise the whole point of filing VFR, which is SAR. I'm not sure whether the search algorithm for VFR flight plans takes into account the filed route, however.

Personally, I'd MUCH rather drop off of someone's radar screen if I have to go down, rather than depend on FSS to initiate SAR, which as others in this thread pointed out, is delayed by at least an hour after your ETA and usually a good deal longer. Even if ATC is under no legal obligation to do anything (and I'm not 100% sure that's true either), I can't imagine they would do nothing, especially if I managed to get off a mayday before going in.

 

[weilke]

Personally, I'd MUCH rather drop off of someone's radar screen if I have to go down, rather than depend on FSS to initiate SAR, which as others in this thread pointed out, is delayed by at least an hour after your ETA and usually a good deal longer. Even if ATC is under no legal obligation to do anything (and I'm not 100% sure that's true either), I can't imagine they would do nothing, especially if I managed to get off a mayday before going in.

Filing and activating a VFR flight plan does not restrict you in any way from obtaining flight following. If you take a scenic detour and bump up against your filed arrival, all it takes is 'center I would need to switch to flight service for a minute' to update your ETA.

If ATC loses radar or radio contact with a plane on flight following, they are supposed to follow up on it (call a supe, try to call on 121.5, relay through other aircraft etc.). Not sure they do 100% of the time.

 

[azure]

Filing and activating a VFR flight plan does not restrict you in any way from obtaining flight following. If you take a scenic detour and bump up against your filed arrival, all it takes is 'center I would need to switch to flight service for a minute' to update your ETA.

I never said it did. I'm well aware that people do both, I'm just not sure the VFR flight plan really adds much safety to your flight IF you are on and can stay on flight following.

Before I was instrument rated, I would file VFR whenever I was traveling in an area, and at an altitude, where I would not generally expect radar services. Example: flying to northern Michigan at low altitudes due to a solid overcast.

 

[deeruck]

My spin instructor and I made an excursion inside the 10-mile circle of doom (DC-FRZ) for "sightseeing". As long as you communicate intentions, they dont send the combat helo after you.

Does he have a FRZ pin and file a FRZ plan prior to the flight? Otherwise, my understanding was that entry was not permitted SFRA flight plan.