Vfr Flight plans

Filing a VFR flight plan is like fastening your seat belt. It's a frequent, minor effort in exchange for a major payoff in rare circumstances.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I would concur that if you're getting flight following, filing a VFR flight plan is generally redundant. If you don't check in with the next sector/facility, they will start looking for you.



I do have a little trick for flight following, particularly if you aren't flying a straight line from A-to-B and want to put some waypoints in the plan. Your mileage may vary between ATC facilities on this. Go online and file an IFR flight plan, except in the altitude box, put 'VFR'. You can put in an altitude if you'd like: for 6500 you'd put in VFR/065. Foreflight and DTC Duat will accept this, I have never tried with any other online filing service.
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Assuming I tried this, what are you asking ATC when requesting FF for them to know to look for your info in the system?

Is "Center, Propwash 123, request FF" sufficient?
 
I almost always am IFR or getting FF and we do let people know where we are going. Now that LockMart has set up their EZOpen thing I might go back to doing VFR plans regularly.
 
weilke said:
I think the way VFR flight plans are being handled is backwards, particularly the lack of integration with flight following and the ATC system. There are certainly better ways of handling this, AFSSs effort to integrate with on-board trackers and the rumored ability to activate and close flight plans via text message sound like they are heading the right direction. If I fly up and down the east coast VFR, I just get flight following. You are allways in radar contact and most places are so densely settled that you will most likely land in someones yard in case something goes wrong. Towards that hilly part in the middle, filing VFR flight plans has value.
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It's not rumored, it's live. I did it on Easter. The instructions are in the video link I posted earlier in this thread.
 
If all VFR flight plans filed went to ATC, the system would be saturated. That's why it's always been designed that so anyone requesting FF, call the controller directly. If they want to put you into the computer to affect a handoff, then it's up to them. That's why in the Goodish letter they frown upon a VFR pilot filing IFR with a VFR altitude indicated.

As far ATC looking for you under FF in the event of a crash. Any loss of radar and comms, they're required to treat the situation as an emergency. That'll consist of red E on the strip, notifing the sup, who will then notify center, who'll get the ball rolling with RCC.
 
I doubt it. I don't think there are that many VFR plans filed and a facility could have the option of not printing VFR strips.

That's NOT what Goodish states. Goodish says that filing IFR could indicate the INTENT for a pilot to actually fly IFR. It was a silly letter when it was written and frankly in contradiction with the FAA's own policy in several facilities (OAK, PCT, etc...). It's unclear how filing a plan for FF change the load at all. The controller has to enter a plan when he gives FF anyhow so one exists in the system either way.

Note that FF isn't necessarily going to get you SAR services. You could get dropped (squawk VFR have a nice day) etc....

Hell, even IFR doesn't guarantee anything. There was a guy who was on an instrument approach (and active clearance) and his last words on being switched to advisory frequency that he probably would be back on the missed given the weather. Well, he crashed on the missed. The controller forgot about him. Wasn't until the next day that someone went looking for him (though I don't think he would have survived in any event).
 
...only time I filed one was when there was a VIP TFR over my home base. Otherwise, like the rest - I get FF. I've been through Houston and DFW class B and didn't file - just had FF on the way out and was transferred over to them when the time was right. That said, I don't take a trip where someone doesn't know where I'm going and what time I should be back. If I didn't have anyone that knew - I'd file, just to cover my arse and someone would come looking for me if I didn't get where I was supposed to be in time.

It is easy as heck to file - esp if you use FF. I have cell on my iPad so I can file while I'm strapping myself in and getting ready to taxi out. I don't know for sure since i haven't done that - but would assume that the info is in the system within 5 minutes or so of filing online.
 
For those who relie on relatives to start a search, what do you tell them to do To initiate a SAR effort for you?
 
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flyingron said:
I doubt it. I don't think there are that many VFR plans filed and a facility could have the option of not printing VFR strips.

That's NOT what Goodish states. Goodish says that filing IFR could indicate the INTENT for a pilot to actually fly IFR. It was a silly letter when it was written and frankly in contradiction with the FAA's own policy in several facilities (OAK, PCT, etc...). It's unclear how filing a plan for FF change the load at all. The controller has to enter a plan when he gives FF anyhow so one exists in the system either way.

Note that FF isn't necessarily going to get you SAR services. You could get dropped (squawk VFR have a nice day) etc....

Hell, even IFR doesn't guarantee anything. There was a guy who was on an instrument approach (and active clearance) and his last words on being switched to advisory frequency that he probably would be back on the missed given the weather. Well, he crashed on the missed. The controller forgot about him. Wasn't until the next day that someone went looking for him (though I don't think he would have survived in any event).
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It's one thing to get on DUATS and file IFR with a VFR altitude, I was talking about ALL VFR flight plans automatically getting sent to ATC. That would be a waste of paper and the scope would be saturated with aircraft data blocks. Even guys doing traffic pattern work at uncontrolled airports, data blocks would be overlapping everywhere.

If a VFR is typed into the FDIO, it's going to any controller down the line. There isn't a VFR printer and an IFR printer. The computer assigns an NAS code and it determines whose airspace that aircraft will be transitioning through. It's coming up in the pending list on the scope and printer 30 mins prior.

Goodish states the preferred method which I described so it IS in the letter. As far as controller preference, well that's debatable. When I worked approach I wouldn't have any problem with an IFR with VFR altitude strip. Saves me the time of writing and typing. Some controllers might see it as a distraction is they're really busy though.

For the SAR comment. Obviously if you're terminated then radar services are no loner provided. Part of that would be SAR. That is unless someone calls and reports a crash, or overdue situation, then ATC will once again involved. Done a it few times myself.

Another thing that most pilots don't realize is the almost immediate help that can be provided. A lot of times I worked CG aircraft doing training flights. We also had a station SAR (H-46) aircraft that was out and about a lot. If I was to have an aircraft go down to say engine failure, I could have one of them overhead in minutes. File a flight plan and not talk to ATC and best case scenario they'll come looking for you 30 mins after your ETA. I'll take FF over filing when it comes to SAR.
 
ForeFlight now allows you to open and close your flight plan.

It worked a few weeks ago when I used it on a student cross-country.
 
We also had a station SAR (H-46) aircraft that was out and about a lot. If I was to have an aircraft go down to say engine failure, I could have one of them overhead in minutes.
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I sometimes fly from Austin to Marfa Texas. Not many H-46's there, plus it's hard to raise any ATC on the radio below ~5000'.
 
JimNtexas said:
I sometimes fly from Austin to Marfa Texas. Not many H-46's there, plus it's hard to raise any ATC on the radio below ~5000'.
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Well it was just an example. I'm sure there are areas around the country where it's hard to get ahold of ATC and there are no SAR aircraft around.

I've flown out west and out east and 90 % of the time FF is provided at the altitudes I fly. If I went down during the few times it wasn't provided then either I'm going to get out of my plane and call 911 on my cell, walk to the nearest town, or my ELT will signal where my body lies. Since I always have friends or family waiting for a cross country like that, an hour and a half after no show they'll be getting the dogs after me anyway.

It's interesting. Both my dad and brother worked FSS. My dad used to get mad at me for not filing. In his day almost everyone filed. Radar wasn't everywhere like it is now, didnt have as good SAR services, GPS, and cell phones weren't around. Back then they used old DF equipment to orient aircraft. Now, my brother, he'll be the first one to tell you FSS is no longer useful because he understands the technology that's available today.

Unless someone is clueless on deciphering weather, NOTAMs or they're flying in an extremely remote area, I personally don't see the need in using FSS.
 
ARFlyer said:
ForeFlight now allows you to open and close your flight plan.

It worked a few weeks ago when I used it on a student cross-country.
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I've used this feature in Foreflight several times now and it works great. As I enter the runway for takeoff i click activate and after clearing the runway at my destination I click close. The first time I used it I called FSS just to make sure. The briefer told me everything worked fine, giving me the exact times of both actions. In my mind it is just too easy to not file.
 
I filed a VFR flight plan only once - as a student pilot.

I did a 4200nm cross country, VFR the whole way, and never bothered to file a flight plan for any of it. I never crashed. Plus the Feds have no need to know where I am going.
 
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Kind of surprised how few people file. Still a student (but not for much longer) so it's interesting to hear what people do in the real world outside flight training.

I like the safety feature of someone will start looking if I don't check in. Before my cross countries I gave my nonpilot family my route and told them I'd text them before takeoff and after landing. On my long xc I forgot to text them when I finished, and I went out to a long dinner afterwards. No texts, no phone calls, no one was concerned even though I hadn't checked in for several hours. Plus, even if they had been concerned, who would they call? The police? If I'd crashed on the way home it would be a LONG time before anyone came looking. I took some very basic safety gear with me, but if I'd crashed in the middle of nowhere and was hurt I don't think I'd make it too long by myself.
 
Velocity173 said:
Goodish states the preferred method which I described so it IS in the letter.
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The preferred method that is described in the letter seems ridiculous though. If your VFR plan never makes it to ATC, there is zero point to noting "Flight Following" in the remarks.

Either the author of the letter was misinformed, or was actively misdirecting Mr Goodish. The way it's described, I can file VFR then call up ATC and they'll have some idea of who I am.
 
deeruck said:
The preferred method that is described in the letter seems ridiculous though. If your VFR plan never makes it to ATC, there is zero point to noting "Flight Following" in the remarks.

Either the author of the letter was misinformed, or was actively misdirecting Mr Goodish. The way it's described, I can file VFR then call up ATC and they'll have some idea of who I am.
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Oh no argument there. It's just that you always hear a lot of pilots wonder why ATC isn't receiving their VFR flight plan. The purpose of a VFR flight plan came about for SAR and not to allow FF. As far as the Goodish letter, he's looking at it from more of a regulatory point of view and the original intent of a VFR FP. The system was originally designed so that controllers see only IFR and any VFRs that they type in. To modify it by filing IFR with a VFR altitude is fine in my book but I suppose the CC takes a different opinion on the matter. Real world and cubicle world are two different things. When it comes down to it, I don't think anyone has gotten in trouble for filing IFR with a VFR altitude when they weren't IFR rated.

My brother flys and does ATC and he does it all the time. From what I gather at his facility everyone prefers that. As I said, it saves the time of writing and typing. If it's too busy you still have the option of denying service and chucking the strip in the trash anyway.
 
acluffpoa said:
I've used this feature in Foreflight several times now and it works great. As I enter the runway for takeoff i click activate and after clearing the runway at my destination I click close. The first time I used it I called FSS just to make sure. The briefer told me everything worked fine, giving me the exact times of both actions. In my mind it is just too easy to not file.
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That doesn't help you out much though if you don't give position reports to LM every 30 minutes or so while flying. If you're on a 250nm XC and all they know is that you left point A but didn't arrive at point B, then they have a helluva lot of area to cover in the search.

I'd far rather rely on instrument plans or flight following...and, yes, I too file instrument plans with "VFR FF" in the comments, list a VFR altitude and will continue to do so, regardless of what ridiculous interpretation chief counsel issues.

It's my ass...not his.

Filing a VFR flight plan with LM adds no value whatsoever IMO.

CT4ME said:
'Rarely file... only for special, long-distance flying adventures. And few of those. Gotta file for border crossings. I'll monitor ATC. I fly with a SPOT and, having done it for years, knows that it works. On any significant flight, I email several friends and family with an itinerary and a link to my SPOT track. Most of our friends/family know they can click on the link any weekend, to see if we are flying and where.
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That's a great strategy.
 
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timwinters said:
That doesn't help you out much though if you don't give position reports to LM every 30 minutes or so while flying. If you're on a 250nm XC and all they know is that you left point A but didn't arrive at point B, then they have a helluva lot of area to cover in the search.
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These days, the wreck is usually found right under the width of the magenta line.

A LM flight plan offers a lot more information for the SAR effort than aunt Hilda calling the state police that its dark and nephew Bob hasn't arrived yet.

Having a LM VFR flight plan filed and activated does not preclude anyone from obtaining flight following through ATC. I wish there there was a way for information to cross from one system to the other, but they dont interfere either.

Now that there is an option of opening and closing with LM via text message (or foreflight), it has taken most of the hassle out of the process. Also, for real forays into remote area, LM offers integration with spider-tracks. Glad to see that they are catching up into this century.
 
cowman said:
The purpose of a VFR flight plan is so that someone starts looking for your downed aircraft if you run into trouble and don't show up on time right?

Well, I see the point of that if you're over water or in Alaska or over a desert- basically anywhere that you could crash or make an emergency landing without anyone seeing you. Otherwise who would know, where would they look?

But over land throughout most of the mainland US what are the odds nobody would see you and come looking before you'd even be missed at your destination? I'm seriously asking, any statistics or interesting stories?
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I seem to remember a story late last year about a 172 crashing and burning at Nashville International, and nobody knew until the next day. The dude was actually trying not to be found, so definitely no flight plan or FF, but if you can crash just off the end of a towered airport and burn up, and still not be seen until the next day, then it's not unreasonable to think that crashing somewhere between Houston and DFW could go unnoticed for awhile.
 
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cowman said:
The purpose of a VFR flight plan is so that someone starts looking for your downed aircraft if you run into trouble and don't show up on time right?



Well, I see the point of that if you're over water or in Alaska or over a desert- basically anywhere that you could crash or make an emergency landing without anyone seeing you. Otherwise who would know, where would they look?



But over land throughout most of the mainland US what are the odds nobody would see you and come looking before you'd even be missed at your destination? I'm seriously asking, any statistics or interesting stories?
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Anecdotally, how many people searched for Fawcett and for how long?

There's plenty of wide open spaces without another living soul for a hundred miles out here in the West.

Put the aircraft into trees in a national forest and it's pretty likely no one will find you until all that's left is bones.

I can put the aircraft over a number of areas like that in 20 minutes of flight time from my home base at KAPA.

When we had a real FSS, they knew the mountain routes that were popular and would write down check-ins from VFR Sunday fliers at the various well-known landmarks. That's been dead for a long time now. The AFSS script readers in AZ wouldn't know where Hagerman Pass was if they were sitting in an airplane looking down at it.
 
denverpilot said:
The AFSS script readers in AZ wouldn't know where Hagerman Pass was if they were sitting in an airplane looking down at it.
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Yup, but if they provide the landmark to the air-force rescue coordination center, it will still be a valuable piece of information to focus the SAR effort.
 
If you crash you're either dead or your're alive and call on a cell or use a 406 MHz PLB. Either way a flight plan won't matter. If it was 1970, sure I'd file but today, there's no need.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you crash you're either dead or your're alive and call on a cell or use a 406 MHz PLB. Either way a flight plan won't matter. If it was 1970, sure I'd file but today, there's no need.
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It might matter to your loved ones.

There are vast areas in which there is no cell phone service, especially in the western half of the country. A 406 PLB or ELT is probably a good idea, but those aren't foolproof either.
 
cowman said:
Yeah I can believe that. I'm used to flying VFR here in the midwest where I can see dozens of farmhouses at all times.
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1/2 of which are abandoned (just a couple of grain bins and a shed), the rest are unatended during the day until the occupant comes home from his job with the county.

A plane disappeared in eastern ND a couple of years ago. Found in a slough close to a farm a year later.
 
weilke said:
Yup, but if they provide the landmark to the air-force rescue coordination center, it will still be a valuable piece of information to focus the SAR effort.
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Call them through an RCO and try to make a VFR position report. I have. Best as I could tell, it's not an option on their computer screen. Denver FSS used a really high tech device called a piece of paper back in the day. LOL
 
mcmanigle said:
I've more or less given up on VFR flight plans after a few experiences having a really hard time getting through to FSS to open them in the air. Plus, the areas I'm flying are very well radar covered anyway, and I take flight following. That being said, I did file (and open!) the couple of times recently I flew over sparsely populated Appalachia at night.
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Going from near buffalo to baltimore at night, nice night, good vis. 15 years ago, mooney. Worked myself into a snit" single engine, night, central pa. Few lights, what if this thing quit??!!" Never again flew at night single engine. I don't think a twin would bother me but I don't know how to fly one and can't afford one. Does this bother many others?
 
Nope, or I wouldn't fly over trees, water, cities, mountains, IFR, etc., etc., etc.

Love flying at night, great air.
 
Dr. O said:
I rarely file VFR (exceptions are using VFR Lake Services to cross the Great Lakes at night - and to pass through Canadian airspace without having to file an International Flight Plan)
I Never talk to ATC if there is a way to avoid it
If I crash and die (shrug) they will figure it out someday
If I am in the air and having problems and no one is answering the radio there are the 7000 codes on the transponder to get attention
If I am below radar there is the ELT switch on the panel
(not sure why I would bother with either when the guy on the ground cannot fly the plane for me)
If you have to depend on someone on the ground to bail your butt out you had no business leaving the ground in the first place - period

A typical long XC flight for me is going from Michigan to Florida and back and not using the radio except for unicom when landing and taking off. I manage to pull it off roughly half the time - the other half weather forces me to file or I have passengers that need to be dropped off at a controlled airport. If these are bad habits they seem to work for me

Let me caution you about routinely using VFR filing. What becomes routine soon becomes enshrined in regulation. And you know how much we need more regulations over GA :hairraise:
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You are not alone.
 
I've had two aircraft quit on me during the day. A mooney on takeoff at teterboro, and a Stearman over farmland. Landed both with no event. Both directly attributable to lousy mechanic. After that, I only flew during the day.
 
timwinters said:
Nope, or I wouldn't fly over trees, water, cities, mountains, IFR, etc., etc., etc.

Love flying at night, great air.
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Agreed.... Night flights are MAGICAL...:yes:...

If the fan quits then, it is either my time to die... Or not...:rolleyes:
 
Like others, I used to file when FSS was FSS. Back then, they took the job seriously, and when I needed to count on them for a weather briefing, I got a real weather briefing. When I had to rely on them for SAR in the event of emer, then I knew I could rely on them for emer.

The last two times(2009,2011) I filed and opened, I closed once in the air, and once on the ground by phone. Both times they said I didn't close and were starting to talk about a violation. Fortunately, I had a record of my phone call, and a recording of the comm to FSS to prove I was innocent(boy, isn't that a turn of events).

So, nowadays, I just risk it because the probability of getting a violation by someone else making a mistake are far, far, far greater than me going down and needing SAR.

The advent of cell phones, and the 406MHz ELT make filing kind of a waste, and one more opportunity for a bust that I really don't need.

Not just that, but I've really lost interest in having the feds know my coming and going at any time of the day. Which is why the feds(DHS) had to call my home airport asking about my arrival a few weeks back. Lucky for me, the ops manager just hung up on them, and before they could get there, I locked up and went home.

No thank you, and if the OP doesn't want to file, then don't file. Your buddy is a jackass and he can bite me.
 
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Because of this thread, I decided to open a VFR flight plan from Dallas to Austin last Saturday. Still got flight following.

Landed and hopped in the rent a car and then my phone rang. It was FSS asking if I got there okay.

Me: "Um yes, just landed. Please close my flight plan" I even added "CLOSE FLIGHT PLAN" to my checklist.

I was so blown away by the airport's hospitality after I landed that I hopped out w/o closing it. Never had an airport lead me to my waiting car and hand me water as I exit and start grabbing my luggage from the plane and load it for me. Was distracting.

No more flight plans.

Not worth it.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
No more flight plans.

Not worth it.
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What you experienced was your shortcoming, not one related to the flightplan system.
If you ever get your IR, you are going to have to remember to call to close your flight plan if you ever land at a uncontrolled field after a approach to minimums.
 
Although FSS apparently threatened someone here with a violation for not closing a flight plan (and they actually had closed it), I've never heard of penalties actually being assessed, and no penalties were assessed on the occasions when I have forgotten to close one.

Lately, I've been using a technique my current instructor taught me, which is when I start a flight, to switch my watch to my other wrist as a reminder that I haven't closed my flight plan yet. It seems to work.

I can certainly relate to not wanting Big Brother to know where you are though, the way things have been going. :mad:
 
If it makes you feel comfortable to file a flight plan and have FF then by all means go ahead and do it. These days however with 406Mhz PLB's, cellphones and onboard GPS you're probably just as safe on your own or maybe even safer than on a filed plan 30 years ago.

For any students or fresh pilots out there you're most likely going to discover sooner or later that you're not always going to fly a pre-determined straight line from point A to point B and you're almost never going to want to be shackled with the constraints of a filed flight plan. Which is why hardly anyone ever does it.

The important things are that someone on the ground knows, at the very least that you're going flying and in general where you're planning to go and that you yourself have adequately planned your excursion so that the only possible interruption would be due to a mechanical malfunction.

In that case you have your on board GPS from which you can broadcast an accurate position when you make your 121.5 Mayday call. You have on your person a PLB and a cellphone. You have on the aircraft some rudimentary signaling and survival gear such as mirror, fire starter, a jacket or blanket and water.

A 406Mhz ELT is a good option as well as a first aid kit and maybe some food but the key is being found, not so much surviving a month in the wilderness.

The cellphone is probably the biggest improvement in communication because on any long x-country trip you can call or text your ground contact at each fuel stop to say that you are departing on the next leg so if you do disappear THEY are the first to know rather than some giant bureaucratic entity such as FSS after you're an hour late finally calling your contact number to ask them if they know where you are.
 
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Palmpilot said:
Lately, I've been using a technique my current instructor taught me, which is when I start a flight, to switch my watch to my other wrist as a reminder that I haven't closed my flight plan yet. It seems to work.
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I have it as a post-flight checklist item. Also, you can set up Lockheed-Martin to send you an email reminder.

I can certainly relate to not wanting Big Brother to know where you are though, the way things have been going.
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Sure, but if you use flight following, or fly to a towered airport, your plane's whereabouts are on record even without a flight plan. And if you carry a cell phone or use credit cards, there's a far more extensive trail.
 
Pinstriper said:
So a buddy of mine was sort of flabber gasted today when he asked me if I filed a flight plan this past Sunday when I flew to the coast and I said no. The trip is 116nm straight west and I get FF as soon as I depart OVE and also LLR on the way back (about 5mi after departure) I also got a standard briefing from Lockheed Martin.. At 175hrs he said I was learning bad habits? So what the consensus here? Should I file? After all I'm talking to ATC..
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I don't think you are at all. Hell, in a congested area FF is probably the better idea. That way a controller will immediately know if you drop off radar etc and won't wait until you're overdue to start looking for you.

Also, if it helps, I attend SIU carbondale and our flight program is nationally ranked. Our school policy on VFR plans is that if you're doing a cross country you must either file a flight plan, or get flight following. Either works. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
 
Darsh said:
I don't think you are at all. Hell, in a congested area FF is probably the better idea. That way a controller will immediately know if you drop off radar etc and won't wait until you're overdue to start looking for you.



Also, if it helps, I attend SIU carbondale and our flight program is nationally ranked. Our school policy on VFR plans is that if you're doing a cross country you must either file a flight plan, or get flight following. Either works. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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Good to see a Saluki on the board. :)
 
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