Tower, are you there?

[RMCN172RG]

I beleive this is the correct airport diagram.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0813/00019AD.PDF

Taxiway B is straight from TAC to the middle of rwy 4/22

 

[KennyFlys]

That just means I'm the only sane man in the asylum.

Don't even try to throw that claim out there!

But, you do qualify for a response I threw at another some time ago.

Steven, you'd argue with a blank sheet of paper.

 

[kkoran]

At KAPA there are large runup areas at the ends of the runways, and at certain intersections if you request an intersection departure. It's not like you need to stop halfway to the runway at some runup area to do your runup. Here is the airport diagram. Don't be confused by the label "runup area" in the center of the airport. That is the runup area for 10 or if you are going to depart from A8 or A9. http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0813/05715AD.PDF

Someone posted a link to LiveATC way back toward the beginning of the thread but I can tell you that that the instructions are to taxi to the runway, not the runup area for the runway. Depending on who is recording the ATIS, I think that they sometimes give more detailed instructions. However, the expectation is that, just like at other airports, if the runup area is at the end of the runway you pull in there to do your runup. You do not pull up to the hold short line, blocking other traffic, and start your runup, especially if you are going to take a long time. Although that may be technically legal, it isn't courteous. Granted, there are other airports with no runup area at the end of the runway so you either need to do it on the ramp or at the hold short line, but KAPA is not one of them.

You contact ground "ready for departure" while you are still in the runup area which is about 50-100 feet from the runway before you move to the hold short line. On the other hand, if you don't need a runup or do a rolling runup, you can tell ground while you are taxiing that you will be ready at the end.

My only issue is what tells a pilot that he has to call ready for departure before leaving the runup area? This seems to be an unwritten expectation on the tower's part. The A/FD simply says to inform Ground when ready for departure. If they want pilots to call ready from the runup area, they need to either publish that in the A/FD, put it on the ATIS, or issue an appropriate taxi instruction such as "taxi to the Rwy XX runup area, advise this frequency when rady for departure." Then, when the aircraft calls ready, they would say "taxi to Rwy XX, monitor tower."

 

[Everskyward]

My only issue is what tells a pilot that he has to call ready for departure before leaving the runup area? This seems to be an unwritten expectation on the tower's part.

Isn't this what you do at any other airport? The only difference is that you tell ground rather than tower.

I think the thing I learned from this thread (among other things) is how rigid a lot of people's thinking is. I'm not sure if it's because people are afraid of making a mistake, or that's just the way their brains are wired. There's a lot to be said for standardization, but in real life, procedures can be different at different locations and you need to learn to go with the flow.

 

[TknoFlyer]

At KAPA there are large runup areas at the ends of the runways...

Maybe that's a source of confusion (or simply difference of opinion/understanding). When I'm instructed "taxi to runway [n]" I don't stop at a runup. I go to the hold short line.

Someone posted a link to LiveATC way back toward the beginning of the thread...

...which was a link to the general site, not a specific KAPA recording.

...but I can tell you that that the instructions are to taxi to the runway, not the runup area for the runway. Depending on who is recording the ATIS, I think that they sometimes give more detailed instructions. However, the expectation is that, just like at other airports, if the runup area is at the end of the runway you pull in there to do your runup. You do not pull up to the hold short line, blocking other traffic, and start your runup, especially if you are going to take a long time.

This is contrary to what I'd expect. "Taxi to runway" would not imply expectation of stopping at the runup nor has this been my experience at many controlled fields up and down the east coast (including KRDU, KSFB, KMSY, KPDK and many other high-traffic Class C and Class B airports). Every time I've heard controllers issue "taxi to runway" instructions, the receiving aircraft has gone to the runway.

Your point about doing the runup at the hold short line is one I agree with, but I would expect a taxi clearance to the runup if that's what's desired.

You contact ground "ready for departure" while you are still in the runup area which is about 50-100 feet from the runway before you move to the hold short line. On the other hand, if you don't need a runup or do a rolling runup, you can tell ground while you are taxiing that you will be ready at the end.

OK, at least there's some sense of sanity there.

If they want pilots to call ready from the runup area, they need to either publish that in the A/FD, put it on the ATIS, or issue an appropriate taxi instruction such as "taxi to the Rwy XX runup area, advise this frequency when rady for departure." Then, when the aircraft calls ready, they would say "taxi to Rwy XX, monitor tower."

Agreed.

 

[RMCN172RG]

FWIW isn't KAPA Denver and KAMA Amarillo????

 

[TknoFlyer]

My only issue is what tells a pilot that he has to call ready for departure before leaving the runup area? This seems to be an unwritten expectation on the tower's part. The A/FD simply says to inform Ground when ready for departure. If they want pilots to call ready from the runup area, they need to either publish that in the A/FD, put it on the ATIS, or issue an appropriate taxi instruction such as "taxi to the Rwy XX runup area, advise this frequency when rady for departure." Then, when the aircraft calls ready, they would say "taxi to Rwy XX, monitor tower."

Isn't this what you do at any other airport? The only difference is that you tell ground rather than tower.

No, it's not. I don't talk to tower until I'm at the hold short line - which, coincidentally, is when I'm "ready for departure." When I'm still in the runup, I'm "runup complete" but not "ready for departure" since I still have some taxiing to do.

I think the thing I learned from this thread (among other things) is how rigid a lot of people's thinking is. I'm not sure if it's because people are afraid of making a mistake, or that's just the way their brains are wired. There's a lot to be said for standardization, but in real life, procedures can be different at different locations and you need to learn to go with the flow.

At least on my part, I don't think it's rigidity of thought as much as recognition that standardization of ATC is key to safe operations across the country. While there are valid reasons for special procedures, they need to be minimized. In this case, it seems there's a good reason for a slight modification to standard practice (eliminating congestion on the taxiway), but I think clarification of taxi instructions would eliminate any of my concerns.

Of course, this so far for me is purely on principle as I don't have any plans to fly to Colorado any time soon, much less KAPA.

 

[TknoFlyer]

FWIW isn't KAPA Denver and KAMA Amarillo????

Yep. Good catch.

 

[kkoran]

Isn't this what you do at any other airport? The only difference is that you tell ground rather than tower.

No. I’ve never been anyplace where they expected you to remain in the runup area until you announced ready (to either tower or ground). You proceeded to the hold line or got into the back of the line and, at some point in the process, you advised ready.

I think the thing I learned from this thread (among other things) is how rigid a lot of people's thinking is. I'm not sure if it's because people are afraid of making a mistake, or that's just the way their brains are wired. There's a lot to be said for standardization, but in real life, procedures can be different at different locations and you need to learn to go with the flow.

That’s a little difficult when they don’t tell you what the ‘flow’ is. There is no way for a pilot (think transient) to know that they are expected to call ready from the runup area. It's not specified in the AIM. The A/FD doesn't specify that you're supposed to advise Ground you're ready from the runup area. The taxi clearance is to the runway, so you are cleared all the way to the hold line.

 

[ScottM]

No. I’ve never been anyplace where they expected you to remain in the runup area until you announced ready (to either tower or ground). You proceeded to the hold line or got into the back of the line and, at some point in the process, you advised ready.

I have been in places where they expect you to stay in the runup area. It is not common by any stretch but it is not unheard of either.

 

[kkoran]

I have been in places where they expect you to stay in the runup area. It is not common by any stretch but it is not unheard of either.

I don't have a problem with the procedure, they just have to let pilots know what the procedure is.

 

[KennyFlys]

I don't have a problem with the procedure, they just have to let pilots know what the procedure is.

Or, the pilot could apply some common sense. How far do you think you should be able to continue taxiing to a runway hold-short line after a period of non-movement? A hundred feet? Two hundred? Five hundred?

What if you're positioned in a run-up area that doesn't allow you to see the heavy bizjet coming down the taxiway? That would be the one you didn't hear about because you weren't paying attention to the radio during run-up; particularly when you had to take the extra time and effort to burn off the plugs.

Common sense and safety dictate this... talk to ground one last time before leaving the run-up area. Unless, you know for certain the airport you're at has something different expected. If you're not sure, ask ground. If it's a Class C or B, ask clearance.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As given you should have contacted Ground after the runup to advise them that you were ready. "stay on this frequency"

Ray,

I took the "stay on this frequency" to mean for him to remain on the clearance delivery frequency rather than contacting ground for taxi.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Isn't this what you do at any other airport? The only difference is that you tell ground rather than tower.

I generally don't call ground or tower when the runup is complete, unless there is a significant distance between the runup area and the hold short line.

My only issue is what tells a pilot that he has to call ready for departure before leaving the runup area? This seems to be an unwritten expectation on the tower's part.

And THAT is the crux of the matter.

Scott, I don't know if you've noticed, but Steven tends to not give his answer to a given question, he tends to ask questions to lead us towards the answer as he sees it. You are not seeing it.

The issue here is that while we all "know" what's expected, what is expected is NOT what's written.

What we expect to do based on what's written is to taxi to the runup area, do our runup, advise ground that we're ready for departure, and be told to taxi to the hold short line and monitor tower. The tower SOP's seem to back up that this is what they are expecting as well.

Unfortunately, as Steven has pointed out without explicitly pointing it out, is that the procedure I describe above is NOT what is called for in black and white in the A/FD. The A/FD says "when ready for departure" which can also mean already sitting at the hold short line.

I think Steven's point of view, as someone who has to follow written FAA procedures day in and day out, is that things that are written in FAA publications need to be clear and agree with each other, and in this case there is still room for error. Think of the perspective of a student or new PP who goes here for the first time - There's a pretty good chance they'll interpret what the A/FD says as different from what the tower is expecting, and when pilots and ATC aren't on the same page, that's never a good thing.

Can we please go back to arguing about global warming now?

 

[EdFred]

Here's the problem I have. I am usually going to do my runup at the edge of a non movement area (outside the single dashed line) that way, if I have an issue with the mags or prop, I haven't taxied 1/2 a mile or mile to the end of the runway, only to find out I have to taxi back. So, if I were to call ground at APA, and say I'm ready to taxi, and they say taxi to XX, I'm not even going to the runup area, because I've already done it. So I taxi alllllllll the way to thold short line, only to call ground again, to tell them I'm ready. Of course ground probably expects me to have done a runup out at the runway, and now, I've jacked everything up, because I am "out of order" and the ATIS/AFD is not specific in that I don't actually taxi to the runway at APA when told to taxi to the runway at APA.

Or am I missing something?

 

[KennyFlys]

Here's the problem I have. I am usually going to do my runup at the edge of a non movement area (outside the single dashed line) that way, if I have an issue with the mags or prop, I haven't taxied 1/2 a mile or mile to the end of the runway, only to find out I have to taxi back. So, if I were to call ground at APA, and say I'm ready to taxi, and they say taxi to XX, I'm not even going to the runup area, because I've already done it. So I taxi alllllllll the way to thold short line, only to call ground again, to tell them I'm ready. Of course ground probably expects me to have done a runup out at the runway, and now, I've jacked everything up, because I am "out of order" and the ATIS/AFD is not specific in that I don't actually taxi to the runway at APA when told to taxi to the runway at APA.

Or am I missing something?

If you're ready for departure upon reaching the runway, advise ground. Otherwise, they will expect you to turn into the run-up area. No doubt, they'll direct you to the runway then have you monitor tower.

At PDK and other towered airports, I've been directed to the runway but they expected I'd have to complete a run-up and would enter an existing run-up area. But, if I did a rolling run-up, I tell them I'm ready for departure.

 

[Clark1961]

Here's the problem I have. I am usually going to do my runup at the edge of a non movement area (outside the single dashed line) that way, if I have an issue with the mags or prop, I haven't taxied 1/2 a mile or mile to the end of the runway, only to find out I have to taxi back. So, if I were to call ground at APA, and say I'm ready to taxi, and they say taxi to XX, I'm not even going to the runup area, because I've already done it. So I taxi alllllllll the way to thold short line, only to call ground again, to tell them I'm ready. Of course ground probably expects me to have done a runup out at the runway, and now, I've jacked everything up, because I am "out of order" and the ATIS/AFD is not specific in that I don't actually taxi to the runway at APA when told to taxi to the runway at APA.

Or am I missing something?

What you're missing is the standard practice of advising ground that you'll be ready to go when you reach the runway. That practice seems to work at most controlled fields. APA ground is used to that call and can manage that situation quite well.

If folks want to be lawyers about APA then they'll have trouble there. If they just use their brain for something more than an ear spacer then APA is simple and straitforward. Personally, I'd rather fly with folks who think things through rather than [term descriptive of an unlikely anatomical inversion deleted] types who want to argue semantics. As always, YMMV.

 

[skyflyer8]

 

[KennyFlys]

Oh.... for such a short package....

 

[EdFred]

What you're missing is the standard practice of advising ground that you'll be ready to go when you reach the runway. That practice seems to work at most controlled fields. APA ground is used to that call and can manage that situation quite well.

If folks want to be lawyers about APA then they'll have trouble there. If they just use their brain for something more than an ear spacer then APA is simple and straitforward. Personally, I'd rather fly with folks who think things through rather than [term descriptive of an unlikely anatomical inversion deleted] types who want to argue semantics. As always, YMMV.

Uh, the "standard" practice is to advise TOWER you are ready to depart, not ground. Every place I have been (47 states via GA) has been to tell me to ground I'm ready to taxi, they tell me to taxi to the runway, and that's the last word I say to them (unless I'm verifiying I can cross an active runway). I keep it on ground until I'm at the hold short just in case anything pops up, switch over to tower and say I'm ready to take off. That is standard practice.

 

[ScottM]

Or am I missing something?

If you are ready to go, were cleared to taxi to a runway and are sitting at the hold short line, when you call ground they are to SEQUENCE you per the ATC SOP that was shared here, you'll be first to go as no one can get around you.

I too do not always go into the run up area. I would simply call ground and tell them I am ready to go and let them figure the sequencing out as per their guidelines and authority given in the SOP and I would assume other publications. This is not KATL trying to do a couple of hundred ops an hour, I would think their sequencing is not all that tough.

 

[ScottM]

That is standard practice.

Except at KAPA

And that is there is only one thing at KAPA that is different. Whatever you do to as you get to the runway, stop in the runup, go to the hold short line, etc. IS exactly the same as everywhere else except when you are ready to depart you state so to the ground controller on the ground frequency, who will tell you to monitor tower and get you sequenced which is also documented in their SOP.

So simple a caveman or Wolverine can do it!

 

[EdFred]

Well I called ATIS at KAPA tonight at 830 KAPA time, and everything was combined on Tower. So I have no clue what the hell you are supposed to do at KAPA anymore.

 

[EdFred]

Except at KAPA

Since when is the exception to the rule the....uh.....standard?

 

[ScottM]

I generally don't call ground or tower when the runup is complete, unless there is a significant distance between the runup area and the hold short line.



And THAT is the crux of the matter.

Scott, I don't know if you've noticed, but Steven tends to not give his answer to a given question, he tends to ask questions to lead us towards the answer as he sees it. You are not seeing it.

The issue here is that while we all "know" what's expected, what is expected is NOT what's written.

What we expect to do based on what's written is to taxi to the runup area, do our runup, advise ground that we're ready for departure, and be told to taxi to the hold short line and monitor tower. The tower SOP's seem to back up that this is what they are expecting as well.

Unfortunately, as Steven has pointed out without explicitly pointing it out, is that the procedure I describe above is NOT what is called for in black and white in the A/FD. The A/FD says "when ready for departure" which can also mean already sitting at the hold short line.

I think Steven's point of view, as someone who has to follow written FAA procedures day in and day out, is that things that are written in FAA publications need to be clear and agree with each other, and in this case there is still room for error. Think of the perspective of a student or new PP who goes here for the first time - There's a pretty good chance they'll interpret what the A/FD says as different from what the tower is expecting, and when pilots and ATC aren't on the same page, that's never a good thing.

Can we please go back to arguing about global warming now?

Kent,
I and many others think Steve's posts have spoken for themselves.

 

[ScottM]

Since when is the exception to the rule the....uh.....standard?

What do you mean? There is an AFD entry for KAPA that tells you to do it differently. Did you not read the first 6 pages of this godforsaken thread?

 

[Clark1961]

Uh, the "standard" practice is to advise TOWER you are ready to depart, not ground. Every place I have been (47 states via GA) has been to tell me to ground I'm ready to taxi, they tell me to taxi to the runway, and that's the last word I say to them (unless I'm verifiying I can cross an active runway). I keep it on ground until I'm at the hold short just in case anything pops up, switch over to tower and say I'm ready to take off. That is standard practice.

Uh, maybe that's so in your world. Maybe not. Maybe you're fibbing just a little bit. I've heard too many conversations with ground about whether or not an aircraft will be ready to go when they reach the runway to believe a word you say about "standard practice" with regards to this matter. Sorry.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Uh, maybe that's so in your world. Maybe not. Maybe you're fibbing just a little bit. I've heard too many conversations with ground about whether or not an aircraft will be ready to go when they reach the runway to believe a word you say about "standard practice" with regards to this matter. Sorry.

Clark,

What Ed says is true, though I have heard jets, mostly bizjets, advise ground that they'll be "ready to go at the end" when still a significant distance from that end, presumably hoping they'll be told to contact tower a bit before they're stopped at the hold short line (jets don't like to stop) and get an immediate takeoff clearance. I've also heard it on tower frequency. What that has to do with piston traffic...

 

[sba55]

Clark,

What Ed says is true, though I have heard jets, mostly bizjets, advise ground that they'll be "ready to go at the end" when still a significant distance from that end, presumably hoping they'll be told to contact tower a bit before they're stopped at the hold short line (jets don't like to stop) and get an immediate takeoff clearance. I've also heard it on tower frequency. What that has to do with piston traffic...

Why would your engine make a difference? There's plenty of smart piston operators who take advantage of the time they spend taxiing to get ready for takeoff, just like the jets do. I always tell ground that I will be ready at the end and I usually get a rolling takeoff. Saves time, money, and props.

And, to make it relevant to this discussion, it's also a technique that would work at both KAPA and at "standard" procedure airports.

-Felix

 

[KennyFlys]

Why would your engine make a difference? There's plenty of smart piston operators who take advantage of the time they spend taxiing to get ready for takeoff, just like the jets do. I always tell ground that I will be ready at the end and I usually get a rolling takeoff. Saves time, money, and props.

And, to make it relevant to this discussion, it's also a technique that would work at both KAPA and at "standard" procedure airports.

-Felix

Pistons make a big difference. Not every pilot is comfortable with a rolling run-up.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Ray,

I took the "stay on this frequency" to mean for him to remain on the clearance delivery frequency rather than contacting ground for taxi.

YOu will be talking to Clearance/Ground/Tower remaining on the same frequency. I know at MYR dring slow periods the same person is on all three. You here them no matter which one you are on.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Except at KAPA

Fortunately he was at KAMA

 

[EdFred]

Uh, maybe that's so in your world. Maybe not. Maybe you're fibbing just a little bit. I've heard too many conversations with ground about whether or not an aircraft will be ready to go when they reach the runway to believe a word you say about "standard practice" with regards to this matter. Sorry.

Great, now I'm being called a liar. How wonderful.

 

[EdFred]

Ok, just called ATIS again, it says "advise ground when your run-up is complete for sequence to the runway" So I guess in this case I would tell them it is complete when I leave the ramp. Something I have never done anywhere else.

 

[ScottM]

Ok, just called ATIS again, it says "advise ground when your run-up is complete for sequence to the runway" So I guess in this case I would tell them it is complete when I leave the ramp. Something I have never done anywhere else.

So you are saying that the local special procedure at KAPA is very likely, in your estimation and experience, a local special procedure for KAPA ?

Where did I hear that allegation before? hhhmmmm OH YEAH Post #13

The exception being at Denver Centennial (KAPA)... "Special procedures" have been in effect for a long time, say 15 years or more, and you are supposed to contact ground when you are ready for departure. They say it clearly every time on ATIS but I know that switching to tower automatically when ready for takeoff is a hard habit to break for transients.

182 posts latter and all that we have accomplished is that we supported what the OP to the whole discussion stated already. Are we something or what?

 

[roncachamp]

Isn't this what you do at any other airport?

No. At any other airport I'd do my runup in the runup area and once complete I'd taxi to the runway hold line and call the tower ready for departure. AT APA I'd do the same thing except I'd call ground ready for departure instead of tower. There's no reason to stay in the runup area to make that call as I was already authorized to taxi to the runway.

 

[EdFred]

So you are saying that the local special procedure at KAPA is very likely, in your estimation and experience, a local special procedure for KAPA ?

Yes, i would call it a special procedure, not a standard procedure like Mr. Griswold says it is.

What you're missing is the standard practice of advising ground that you'll be ready to go when you reach the runway.

The AFD is NOT as clear as the ATIS. THE AFD says nothing about runups.

 

[EdFred]

No. At any other airport I'd do my runup in the runup area and once complete I'd taxi to the runway hold line and call the tower ready for departure. AT APA I'd do the same thing except I'd call ground ready for departure instead of tower. There's no reason to stay in the runup area to make that call as I was already authorized to taxi to the runway.

I agree with you when reading ONLY the AFD. However, Call ATIS (303) 799 6722 and it is a bit more clear, as they say call ground when complete with runup for sequencing to the runway.

 

[roncachamp]

My only issue is what tells a pilot that he has to call ready for departure before leaving the runup area? This seems to be an unwritten expectation on the tower's part. The A/FD simply says to inform Ground when ready for departure. If they want pilots to call ready from the runup area, they need to either publish that in the A/FD, put it on the ATIS, or issue an appropriate taxi instruction such as "taxi to the Rwy XX runup area, advise this frequency when rady for departure." Then, when the aircraft calls ready, they would say "taxi to Rwy XX, monitor tower."

Exactly.

 

[roncachamp]

Scott, I don't know if you've noticed, but Steven tends to not give his answer to a given question, he tends to ask questions to lead us towards the answer as he sees it.

Socratic Method.

Unfortunately, as Steven has pointed out without explicitly pointing it out, is that the procedure I describe above is NOT what is called for in black and white in the A/FD. The A/FD says "when ready for departure" which can also mean already sitting at the hold short line.

I believe Steven did point it out, several times.