Tower, are you there?

[roncachamp]

This is the flow I recall from my last flight to KPDK:

Me (N2871R): Ground, N2871R at Epp's ready to taxi with Oscar.

Ground: N2871R, Peachtree Ground. Taxi to run-up for Runway 2. Advise front of the line.

The key here is I was instructed to go to the run-up area, not the runway. (See attachment to see where the run-ups are.) If I didn't need the run-up, I would have negotiated a clearance direct to the runway.

Exactly. If I was directed to just taxi to a runup area I'd naturally call ground control when my runup was complete because I had further taxiing to do and that's the purview of ground control.

 

[roncachamp]

Well now, at APA you tell ground which runway you want and they tell you how to taxi there. Next, you don't taxi to the hold line (unless you're ready to go) but you do taxi to the run-up area. Then you call ground when ready to depart. Ground tells you to monitor tower and tower tells you when to go. It's simple and it works.

According to the APA tower SOP, once an aircraft reports runup complete ground control taxis them to the runway and switches them to tower, advising them to monitor that frequency. The A/FD calls for an additional call to ground control when ready for departure, that call is unnecessary.

Unlike Steven claims, it is a special procedure unlike most other towered fields. One pilot I know who's flown out of APA for 20 years says it's unlike any other field he has visited. Operationally it's no big deal, just switch the radio from com 1 to com 2 after the call instead of before. Don't do like I did the first time there and actually just "monitor" tower rather than switching the radios. Oops! (hey, they tol' me to "monitor")

I suppose the procedures at APA seem special to those that haven't experienced anything similar at other airports. To those that have experienced similar procedures at other airports they're not so special.

 

[gismo]

FWIW, IME most but not all controlled airports have "runnup areas" immediately adjacent to their runways and in that case the SOP is normally to get taxi instructions to the runway with an implied (but not required) stop in the runnup area after which airplanes are expected to get in line for departure and call the tower. However I've been to a few airports where the runnup area is some distance from the departure hold short line and there I would expect to get (or ask for) taxi instructions to the runnup pad after which I'd call ground for further taxi instructions to the runway unless told otherwise. At my home base (which has runnup areas immediately adjacent to the hold short lines at all runways) the former procedure is normally in effect, but occasionally when things get real busy I've been instructed to call ground for release (IFR) instead of the tower and once in a great while I've been told to contact the tower only once I was #1 for the runway.

So it appears that there's no "one size fits all" methodology even at the same airport. IMO the AIM gives guidance on what to expect for most situations when contrary information isn't given either in the initial call to ground, on the ATIS, and/or in the A/FD.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Hi all;
I landed and waited for the tower to tell me to exit at next taxiway. He did not. I called the tower and said, "3510A can exit taxiway B." By the time he answered me I was past taxiway Bravo. He said, turn at taxiway Bravo." I said, "3510A is back taxing for exit on taxiway Bravo."

I have always exited first taxiway that I could at a towered airport and only once have I heard anything about it from the tower as being wrong. That was because I turned onto the Nat Guard side of the field. My thought was to get off, turn around, then do a midfield departure since this was a stop on my long IFR cross country.

I called clearance delivery and told them I was ready to taxi with info for departure to the northeast. They gave me clearance and said just stay on this frequency and to taxi to runway 22, via taxiway Bravo. I read back instructions and taxied to runway 22 and stopped at the hold line and did my run up. I finally had to ask ground if I could contact the tower for departure. Ground said, "3510A, next time stop and get permission before crossing main taxiway and proceeding to 22." I apologized and said I would be more careful. He then turned me over to the tower.

As given you should have contacted Ground after the runup to advise them that you were ready. "stay on this frequency"

Since the taxi clearance was to runway 22 via bravo does that not give you the clearance to cross?

edit: I suspect they expected you to runup on the ramp not at the hold line.

The wind was calm and I thought the tower would let me make a right turn and head out to the north. So I asked the tower if I could make a right turn and depart to the north, which would have been rwy4. The tower said said right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22. So, I said, 3510A, cleared for take off on 22. Contact departure on 121.9 after take off. I turned left, took off on runway 22. Contacted departure and made a left climbing turn to the north east and was soon cleared of Amarillo airspace.

Since you requested a right turn I think that is what they expected you to do after takeoff from RWY 22.

Your request should have been tower can 10A depart RWY 4 straight out. To which I would expect a reply of never, that is the inbound runway.

 

[roncachamp]

How are those two things in conflict?

The A/FD says "ADVISE GROUND CONTROL...", the SOP says "MONITOR TOWER".

 

[RMCN172RG]

The A/FD says "ADVISE GROUND CONTROL...", the SOP says "MONITOR TOWER".

ADVISE - speak

MONITOR - listen

use two radio's - no conflict

 

[ScottM]

The A/FD says "ADVISE GROUND CONTROL...", the SOP says "MONITOR TOWER".

That is not what the SOP says at all. Read you own post. It says the pilot will advise, presumably ground, and then will be told to monitor tower by the controller operating the ground position.

 

[roncachamp]

Does not appear that way from what you posted previoulsy

No? You see a significant difference between "turn aircraft over to tower" and "have you monitor tower"?

If the pilot advises the tower that his run up is complete why would KAPA ATC then tell him to monitor tower?

Why would the pilot advise the tower that his run up is complete? He'd do that with ground control, ground would then taxi him to the runway and tell him to monitor tower frequency.

He would already be on the frequency. But if he had advised ATC on the ground freq as it states to do so in the AFD then the KAPA ATC SOP that you posted makes sense to tell him to go and monitor the tower freq.

The A/FD doesn't tell pilots to advise ground control when their runup is complete, it tells pilots to advise ground control when ready for departure. At that point they're already at the runway and, per the tower SOP, have already been switched to tower frequency and told by ground control to monitor it.

 

[roncachamp]

Steven, I'm gettin dizzy reading your post.

Perhaps you should stop reading them.

 

[ScottM]

At that point they're already at the runway and, per the tower SOP, have already been switched to tower frequency and told by ground control to monitor it.

Not if they have not advised ground control that they are ready for departure they are not on tower. This is really simple, I do not understand why you are so confused. You might want to spend some time with a CFI going over radio procedures from a pilot's point of view.

 

[KennyFlys]

Perhaps you should stop reading them.

I would but it's difficult finding those not posted as an argument by you. Sorry, dude. But, you've taken this down such a twisted road. I don't get what is so difficult to simply accept the local procedure established.

Add to that, anything in the AIM is strictly advisory. Is it wise to follow it? Absolutely. But, it's not regulatory in nature. However, I think a procedure dictated by local operating rules might be considered regulatory and thereby supersedes the AIM standards; at least according to 91.123(b).

 

[ScottM]

I would but it's difficult finding those not posted as an argument by you. Sorry, dude. But, you've taken this down such a twisted road. I don't get what is so difficult to simply accept the local procedure established.

Add to that, anything in the AIM is strictly advisory. Is it wise to follow it? Absolutely. But, it's not regulatory in nature. However, I think a procedure dictated by local operating rules might be considered regulatory and thereby supersedes the AIM standards; at least according to 91.123(b).

+100 Ken

 

[roncachamp]

FWIW, IME most but not all controlled airports have "runnup areas" immediately adjacent to their runways and in that case the SOP is normally to get taxi instructions to the runway with an implied (but not required) stop in the runnup area after which airplanes are expected to get in line for departure and call the tower.

I assume APA ground control does not issue taxi instructions to a runway on the initial call. The procedures in the tower SOP would be unusable if they did. To use that procedure they'd have to issue taxi instructions to a runup area. Once the runup is complete aircraft would have to contact ground for the short taxi to the runway.

However I've been to a few airports where the runnup area is some distance from the departure hold short line and there I would expect to get (or ask for) taxi instructions to the runnup pad after which I'd call ground for further taxi instructions to the runway unless told otherwise. At my home base (which has runnup areas immediately adjacent to the hold short lines at all runways) the former procedure is normally in effect, but occasionally when things get real busy I've been instructed to call ground for release (IFR) instead of the tower and once in a great while I've been told to contact the tower only once I was #1 for the runway.

The KAPA airport diagram has one designated "RUNUP AREA", a bit northwest of the runway 10 threshold. I assume that's just for runway 10 departures, most of the other runways have obvious runup areas near them.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0813/05715AD.PDF

 

[Everskyward]

I assume APA ground control does not issue taxi instructions to a runway on the initial call.

Your assumption is wrong.

The procedures in the tower SOP would be unusable if they did. To use that procedure they'd have to issue taxi instructions to a runup area. Once the runup is complete aircraft would have to contact ground for the short taxi to the runway.

You might want to re-read your post where you copied the SOPs.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=392757&postcount=38

"When aircraft advises run-up is complete, sequence the aircraft with other departures and turn aircraft over to tower. Phraseology example:

'MONITOR TOWER AT THE HOLD LINE'​

OR​

'PROCEED TO THE HOLD LINE, MONITOR TOWER'​

The only thing that could make it clearer is if it read, "When aircraft advises ground control run-up is complete..." But I'm sure whoever wrote the procedure thought that controllers would be smart enough to understand that part.

 

[roncachamp]

As given you should have contacted Ground after the runup to advise them that you were ready. "stay on this frequency"

He called ready for taxi on clearance delivery frequency. "Stay on this frequency" meant don't bother switching to ground control for taxi, one controller was probably working both positions.

Since the taxi clearance was to runway 22 via bravo does that not give you the clearance to cross?

To cross bravo, yes. The hold line he refers to was at the runway.

edit: I suspect they expected you to runup on the ramp not at the hold line.

Doubtful.

 

[roncachamp]

ADVISE - speak

MONITOR - listen

use two radio's - no conflict

If you don't like the word "conflict" feel free to pick a different one but with any word you choose the situation is this:

You advise ground control that your runup is complete, they tell you "proceed to the hold line, monitor tower". You arrive at the hold line, so in accordance with the A/FD you contact ground control again and advise that you're ready for departure, something the ground controller already knows. The ground controller tells you to monitor tower frequency, again.

To me, those last two transmissions are completely superfluous, they convey no new information to either party. If you disagree then please tell me what they accomplish.

 

[ScottM]

You advise ground control that your runup is complete, they tell you "proceed to the hold line, monitor tower". You arrive at the hold line, so in accordance with the A/FD you contact ground control again and advise that you're ready for departure,.

Nope you're still confused.

 

[Everskyward]

You advise ground control that your runup is complete, they tell you "proceed to the hold line, monitor tower".

You got that part right.

You arrive at the hold line, so in accordance with the A/FD you contact ground control again and advise that you're ready for departure

No you don't. You sit there monitoring tower until they clear you for takeoff.

 

[roncachamp]

That is not what the SOP says at all. Read you own post. It says the pilot will advise, presumably ground, and then will be told to monitor tower by the controller operating the ground position.

You're contradicting yourself.

 

[ScottM]

You're contradicting yourself.

No I am quoting the procedure that you posted. You are not reading your own posting, or at least comprehending it. Everyone has pointed it out to you too. Seriously, you are looking silly at this point. It should be telling when everyone else is in consensus about the procedure. I think you really need to spend some time with a CFI and review radio procedures, because you sure seem confused about a simple local procedure at KAPA.

 

[roncachamp]

Not if they have not advised ground control that they are ready for departure they are not on tower.

The call to ground control per the A/FD is made AFTER the aircraft has been told by ground control to monitor tower frequency.

This is really simple, I do not understand why you are so confused.

What part do you feel I'm confused about?

You might want to spend some time with a CFI going over radio procedures from a pilot's point of view.

I already have a complete understanding of radio procedures from a pilot's point of view.

 

[roncachamp]

I would but it's difficult finding those not posted as an argument by you. Sorry, dude. But, you've taken this down such a twisted road. I don't get what is so difficult to simply accept the local procedure established.

Add to that, anything in the AIM is strictly advisory. Is it wise to follow it? Absolutely. But, it's not regulatory in nature. However, I think a procedure dictated by local operating rules might be considered regulatory and thereby supersedes the AIM standards; at least according to 91.123(b).

I don't have a problem at all with the procedures at APA as explained in the tower SOP. All I've said is they're not as "special" as some seem to believe and pointed out that the comm remark in the A/FD serves no useful purpose.

 

[ScottM]

The call to ground control per the A/FD is made AFTER the aircraft has been told by ground control to monitor tower frequency.

As you have been told several times now by several people, NOPE.

What part do you feel I'm confused about?

That part right up a tthe top fo this post

I already have a complete understanding of radio procedures from a pilot's point of view.

All evidence to the contrary.

 

[roncachamp]

Your assumption is wrong.

Then aircraft are authorized to taxi all the way to the runway hold short line.

You might want to re-read your post where you copied the SOPs.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=392757&postcount=38.

Okay, I re-read it, it says the same as before.

The only thing that could make it clearer is if it read, "When aircraft advises ground control run-up is complete..." But I'm sure whoever wrote the procedure thought that controllers would be smart enough to understand that part.

It is that way, as what I posted comes from the Ground Control chapter of the SOP. I've attached that chapter in full.

 

[roncachamp]

No you don't. You sit there monitoring tower until they clear you for takeoff.

Not according to the A/FD.

 

[ScottM]

Not according to the A/FD.

Why do you keep repeating erroneous information?

You notify ground at KAPA that you are ready to depart as per the AFD, they tell you to monitor tower, so you monitor tower until they clear you for take off. There is no requirement to go back to ground and re-notify. You, as a pilot, would be wrong to do so. The AFD does not tell you to do anything like what you are claiming.

 

[roncachamp]

No I am quoting the procedure that you posted.

Ya think? I said the SOP says "MONITOR TOWER". You respond, "That is not what the SOP says at all. Read you own post. It says the pilot will advise, presumably ground, and then will be told to monitor tower by the controller operating the ground position."

You are not reading your own posting, or at least comprehending it. Everyone has pointed it out to you too. Seriously, you are looking silly at this point. It should be telling when everyone else is in consensus about the procedure.

That just means I'm the only sane man in the asylum.

I think you really need to spend some time with a CFI and review radio procedures, because you sure seem confused about a simple local procedure at KAPA.

I have a complete understanding of radio procedures. In fact, CFIs sometimes contact me asking to have some procedure explained to them.

 

[roncachamp]

That part right up a tthe top fo this post

Can you explain why you feel that way?

All evidence to the contrary.

What do you feel constitutes evidence to the contrary?

 

[roncachamp]

Why do you keep repeating erroneous information?

I don't.

You notify ground at KAPA that you are ready to depart as per the AFD, they tell you to monitor tower, so you monitor tower until they clear you for take off. There is no requirement to go back to ground and re-notify. You, as a pilot, would be wrong to do so. The AFD does not tell you to do anything like what you are claiming.

You're not even trying to understand this.

 

[ScottM]

Ya think? I said the SOP says "MONITOR TOWER".

No the SOP says to have ATC tell the pilot to monitor Tower. The SOP that you keep quoting are the ATC SOP not pilot SOPS at KAPA. is for the guy up in the tower, it is not for the guy in the cockpit.

The AFD tells pilots to tell ground they are ready for departure.

The aTC SOP says that once the ground controler gets that communication form the pilot he advises the pilot to monitor tower.

The pilot then continues to monitor tower until cleared for take off. Simple for everyone else on this board but you.

You keep responding

You respond, "That is not what the SOP says at all. Read you own post. It says the pilot will advise, presumably ground, and then will be told to monitor tower by the controller operating the ground position."

"When aircraft advises run-up is complete, sequence the aircraft with other departures and turn aircraft over to tower. Phraseology example:

'MONITOR TOWER AT THE HOLD LINE'​

OR​

'PROCEED TO THE HOLD LINE, MONITOR TOWER'​

Who does the sequencing in this case? Who is the one telling the aircraft to monitor tower?
​

That just means I'm the only sane man in the asylum.

No it means you are really confused about who is saying what and to whom at any given time. It is rather scary actually to think that you are in ATC and are this confused. It makes me want to to stay the heck away from the airport you work at.

I have a complete understanding of radio procedures. In fact, CFIs sometimes contact me asking to have some procedure explained to them.

Again, all evidence to the contrary.

 

[ScottM]

You're not even trying to understand this.

I, and everyone else do understand.

 

[Everskyward]

Then aircraft are authorized to taxi all the way to the runway hold short line.

Maybe they are, technically, but you should have learned as a student pilot that when you need to do a runup, you pull into the runup area to do it. That way you don't block other traffic behind you who may not need to do a runup, or who can accomplish it faster than you can.

You've done a really good job of trying to confuse the issue for people, but I think that everyone, with the exception of you, understands what's going on, or they are not reading the thread any more... except for amusement.

 

[roncachamp]

No the SOP says to have ATC tell the pilot to monitor Tower. The SOP that you keep quoting are the ATC SOP not pilot SOPS at KAPA. is for the guy up in the tower, it is not for the guy in the cockpit.

The AFD tells pilots to tell ground they are ready for departure.

The aTC SOP says that once the ground controler gets that communication form the pilot he advises the pilot to monitor tower.

The pilot then continues to monitor tower until cleared for take off. Simple for everyone else on this board but you.

You keep responding

You respond, "That is not what the SOP says at all. Read you own post. It says the pilot will advise, presumably ground, and then will be told to monitor tower by the controller operating the ground position."


[/b]

Who does the sequencing in this case? Who is the one telling the aircraft to monitor tower?​

[/center]


No it means you are really confused about who is saying what and to whom at any given time. It is rather scary actually to think that you are in ATC and are this confused. It makes me want to to stay the heck away from the airport you work at.



Again, all evidence to the contrary.

The only SOP quoted or mentioned in this thread has been the ATC SOP.
You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. The fact is you're contradicting yourself.

I think I've done all I can here. It's clear this issue is simply beyon your ability to understand.

 

[ScottM]

Maybe they are, technically, but you should have learned as a student pilot that when you need to do a runup, you pull into the runup area to do it. That way you don't block other traffic behind you who may not need to do a runup, or who can accomplish it faster than you can.

You've done a really good job of trying to confuse the issue for people, but I think that everyone, with the exception of you, understands what's going on, or they are not reading the thread any more... except for amusement.

It is a lost cause Mari. all but one understood what this means and why you had posted it.

 

[Everskyward]

It is a lost cause Mari.

 

[roncachamp]

Maybe they are, technically, but you should have learned as a student pilot that when you need to do a runup, you pull into the runup area to do it. That way you don't block other traffic behind you who may not need to do a runup, or who can accomplish it faster than you can.

I did learn that as a student and I wouldn't do it any other way. The point is pilots CAN taxi right past the runup area if they're issued instructions to "taxi to runway XX" on the intial call, defeating the purpose of the "special procedure.

You've done a really good job of trying to confuse the issue for people, but I think that everyone, with the exception of you, understands what's going on, or they are not reading the thread any more... except for amusement.

If you feel I've tried to confuse the issue then you do not understand the issue.

 

[ScottPA]

... except for amusement.

 

[TknoFlyer]

Maybe they are, technically, but you should have learned as a student pilot that when you need to do a runup, you pull into the runup area to do it. That way you don't block other traffic behind you who may not need to do a runup, or who can accomplish it faster than you can.

As a student pilot I was trained to follow ATC instructions (unless I determined it was unsafe or unable). If GC grants me a clearance of "taxi to runway [n]", that's where I'm going. If I need a run-up, I'll ask for a stop at the run-up area. I cannot assume that GC expects me to stop at the run-up if they've cleared me to the runway. (See my earlier post discussing this about Peachtree (KPDK).) IMO, this is just as bad as the OP's unexpected back-taxi to comply with "exit taxiway Bravo."

What I haven't seen in all this diatribe is a transcription of or link to a recording of radio traffic at KAPA. Without that, I don't know whether GC is issuing taxi instructions to the runup or runway. If KAPA GC is issuing clearances to the runup, then it makes all the sense in the world for aircraft to notify GC they are ready to go to the runway (although I take slight issue with considering this "ready for departure"). If this is the case, then it seems KAPA may have eliminated a radio call by simply instructing the aircraft to "monitor tower [for takeoff clearance]".

If, on the other hand, GC is issuing taxi instructions to the runway (which is what I expect at most airports), then it does not make sense for me to contact GC with "ready for departure" after reaching the hold short line.

 

[Everskyward]

As a student pilot I was trained to follow ATC instructions (unless I determined it was unsafe or unable). If GC grants me a clearance of "taxi to runway [n]", that's where I'm going. If I need a run-up, I'll ask for a stop at the run-up area. I cannot assume that GC expects me to stop at the run-up if they've cleared me to the runway.

At KAPA there are large runup areas at the ends of the runways, and at certain intersections if you request an intersection departure. It's not like you need to stop halfway to the runway at some runup area to do your runup. Here is the airport diagram. Don't be confused by the label "runup area" in the center of the airport. That is the runup area for 10 or if you are going to depart from A8 or A9. http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0813/05715AD.PDF

What I haven't seen in all this diatribe is a transcription of or link to a recording of radio traffic at KAPA. Without that, I don't know whether GC is issuing taxi instructions to the runup or runway.

Someone posted a link to LiveATC way back toward the beginning of the thread but I can tell you that that the instructions are to taxi to the runway, not the runup area for the runway. Depending on who is recording the ATIS, I think that they sometimes give more detailed instructions. However, the expectation is that, just like at other airports, if the runup area is at the end of the runway you pull in there to do your runup. You do not pull up to the hold short line, blocking other traffic, and start your runup, especially if you are going to take a long time. Although that may be technically legal, it isn't courteous. Granted, there are other airports with no runup area at the end of the runway so you either need to do it on the ramp or at the hold short line, but KAPA is not one of them.

If, on the other hand, GC is issuing taxi instructions to the runway (which is what I expect at most airports), then it does not make sense for me to contact GC with "ready for departure" after reaching the hold short line.

You contact ground "ready for departure" while you are still in the runup area which is about 50-100 feet from the runway before you move to the hold short line. On the other hand, if you don't need a runup or do a rolling runup, you can tell ground while you are taxiing that you will be ready at the end.

 

[Clark1961]

According to the APA tower SOP, once an aircraft reports runup complete ground control taxis them to the runway and switches them to tower, advising them to monitor that frequency. The A/FD calls for an additional call to ground control when ready for departure, that call is unnecessary.

You are the only person in this thread who admits to interpreting the A/FD that way. In other words Steven, you are free to make up your own meaning for "ready for departure" but the rest of us know that we are "ready for departure" when we call ground after the run-up. In conclusion the A/FD does not mandate the second call that you claim it does. Sorry but that's the way it is.

Don't ya think the A/FD would have been changed by now if it was truly wrong???

I suppose the procedures at APA seem special to those that haven't experienced anything similar at other airports. To those that have experienced similar procedures at other airports they're not so special.

Well one thing is certain, it's special around here. Tell ya what, I'll grant you the lack of specialness if you admit that you are deliberately misinterpreting the A/FD.