Tower, are you there?

[Terry]

Hi all;
This story starts with Amarillo approach handing me off to Amarillo tower.

I flew to Amarillo Sunday and notified the tower that I was 20 north with information India. Tower said, "Make straight in for 22 and notify tower when runway was in sight." I said, "3510A on straight in approach for 22 and report runway in sight." A few minutes later I said, "Amarillo tower, 3510A has runway in sight for straight in approach." Tower said, "State type of aircraft." "3510A is a 172." "Cleared to land runway 22. I said Cleared to land, 3510A for 22."

I landed and waited for the tower to tell me to exit at next taxiway. He did not. I called the tower and said, "3510A can exit taxiway B." By the time he answered me I was past taxiway Bravo. He said, turn at taxiway Bravo." I said, "3510A is back taxing for exit on taxiway Bravo."

There was no reply and I asked the tower where TAC Air was. He said straight ahead on my right and go ahead and contact ground now. I changed over to ground but by that time I was at TAC Air so ground and I had no discussion.

Everything worked out okay, the airport was not busy, but other Class C's are a lot more explicit on their instructions.

Do you agree, disagree, and what should have been the correct procedure?


Departing Monday.

I called clearance delivery and told them I was ready to taxi with info for departure to the northeast. They gave me clearance and said just stay on this frequency and to taxi to runway 22, via taxiway Bravo. I read back instructions and taxied to runway 22 and stopped at the hold line and did my run up. I finally had to ask ground if I could contact the tower for departure. Ground said, "3510A, next time stop and get permission before crossing main taxiway and proceeding to 22." I apologized and said I would be more careful. He then turned me over to the tower.

The wind was calm and I thought the tower would let me make a right turn and head out to the north. So I asked the tower if I could make a right turn and depart to the north, which would have been rwy4. The tower said said right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22. So, I said, 3510A, cleared for take off on 22. Contact departure on 121.9 after take off. I turned left, took off on runway 22. Contacted departure and made a left climbing turn to the north east and was soon cleared of Amarillo airspace.

What was wrong with this picture? I might add, everyone was courteous, no one yelled at me, and every one was relaxed, with the exception of me.

I will be flying back there in the next few weeks and plan to do a much better job. This was my first time into Amarillo and I just thought the radio communications was way lax.

So all, be nice, but see if you can make me feel better. What should I have done differently?

Thanks;
Terry

 

[purdue1014]

Hi Terry,

I'm not a CFI, but....

Hi all;
This story starts with Amarillo approach handing me off to Amarillo tower.

I flew to Amarillo Sunday and notified the tower that I was 20 north with information India. Tower said, "Make straight in for 22 and notify tower when runway was in sight." I said, "3510A on straight in approach for 22 and report runway in sight." A few minutes later I said, "Amarillo tower, 3510A has runway in sight for straight in approach." Tower said, "State type of aircraft." "3510A is a 172." "Cleared to land runway 22. I said Cleared to land, 3510A for 22."

I landed and waited for the tower to tell me to exit at next taxiway. He did not. I called the tower and said, "3510A can exit taxiway B." By the time he answered me I was past taxiway Bravo. He said, turn at taxiway Bravo." I said, "3510A is back taxing for exit on taxiway Bravo."

There was no reply and I asked the tower where TAC Air was. He said straight ahead on my right and go ahead and contact ground now.

I would abide by any tower instructions to vacate the runway, (if applicable) and then hold position to give ground a call

I changed over to ground but by that time I was at TAC Air so ground and I had no discussion.

if I am not cleared into the ramp, while I'm holding position, I would give ground a call...(at least to make sure he is awake in this case:smile

Everything worked out okay, the airport was not busy, but other Class C's are a lot more explicit on their instructions.

Do you agree, disagree, and what should have been the correct procedure?


Departing Monday.

I called clearance delivery and told them I was ready to taxi with info for departure to the northeast. They gave me clearance and said just stay on this frequency and to taxi to runway 22, via taxiway Bravo. I read back instructions and taxied to runway 22 and stopped at the hold line and did my run up. I finally had to ask ground if I could contact the tower for departure. Ground said, "3510A, next time stop and get permission before crossing main taxiway and proceeding to 22."

I'm a bit confused here, (do you have a diagram?) but if he said the words "taxi to," and you proceeded via bravo as instructed, I don't see anything wrong with that...Ron et al, what am I missing?

I apologized and said I would be more careful. He then turned me over to the tower.

The wind was calm and I thought the tower would let me make a right turn and head out to the north. So I asked the tower if I could make a right turn and depart to the north, which would have been rwy4. The tower said said right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22.

Need a diagram again, but assuming you are at the approach end of 22, then you are at the departure end of 4, ?

So, I said, 3510A, cleared for take off on 22. Contact departure on 121.9 after take off. I turned left, took off on runway 22. Contacted departure and made a left climbing turn to the north east and was soon cleared of Amarillo airspace.

I would have verified with approach what direction they wanted me to turn...It sounds like dep was expecting left, but tower approved right...

What was wrong with this picture? I might add, everyone was courteous, no one yelled at me, and every one was relaxed, with the exception of me.

I will be flying back there in the next few weeks and plan to do a much better job. This was my first time into Amarillo and I just thought the radio communications was way lax.

So all, be nice, but see if you can make me feel better. What should I have done differently?

Thanks;
Terry

Happy New Year

Brent

 

[wabower]

Have you tried Tradewinds?

Hi all;
This story starts with Amarillo approach handing me off to Amarillo tower.

I flew to Amarillo Sunday and notified the tower that I was 20 north with information India. Tower said, "Make straight in for 22 and notify tower when runway was in sight." I said, "3510A on straight in approach for 22 and report runway in sight." A few minutes later I said, "Amarillo tower, 3510A has runway in sight for straight in approach." Tower said, "State type of aircraft." "3510A is a 172." "Cleared to land runway 22. I said Cleared to land, 3510A for 22."

I landed and waited for the tower to tell me to exit at next taxiway. He did not. I called the tower and said, "3510A can exit taxiway B." By the time he answered me I was past taxiway Bravo. He said, turn at taxiway Bravo." I said, "3510A is back taxing for exit on taxiway Bravo."

There was no reply and I asked the tower where TAC Air was. He said straight ahead on my right and go ahead and contact ground now. I changed over to ground but by that time I was at TAC Air so ground and I had no discussion.

Everything worked out okay, the airport was not busy, but other Class C's are a lot more explicit on their instructions.

Do you agree, disagree, and what should have been the correct procedure?


Departing Monday.

I called clearance delivery and told them I was ready to taxi with info for departure to the northeast. They gave me clearance and said just stay on this frequency and to taxi to runway 22, via taxiway Bravo. I read back instructions and taxied to runway 22 and stopped at the hold line and did my run up. I finally had to ask ground if I could contact the tower for departure. Ground said, "3510A, next time stop and get permission before crossing main taxiway and proceeding to 22." I apologized and said I would be more careful. He then turned me over to the tower.

The wind was calm and I thought the tower would let me make a right turn and head out to the north. So I asked the tower if I could make a right turn and depart to the north, which would have been rwy4. The tower said said right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22. So, I said, 3510A, cleared for take off on 22. Contact departure on 121.9 after take off. I turned left, took off on runway 22. Contacted departure and made a left climbing turn to the north east and was soon cleared of Amarillo airspace.

What was wrong with this picture? I might add, everyone was courteous, no one yelled at me, and every one was relaxed, with the exception of me.

I will be flying back there in the next few weeks and plan to do a much better job. This was my first time into Amarillo and I just thought the radio communications was way lax.

So all, be nice, but see if you can make me feel better. What should I have done differently?

Thanks;
Terry

 

[Terry]

Hi All;

I was at taxiway Bravo. Close to the middle of the runway. I had plenty of runway to depart rwy 4 or rwy 22.

I was cleared to taxi to RWY 22 via taxiway Bravo. It was striaght out to the runway from TAC Air.

No I haven't tried Tradewinds. I was renting a car and meeting my son there and that is why I picked Amarillo.

Terry

 

[purdue1014]

Hi All;

I was at taxiway Bravo. Close to the middle of the runway. I had plenty of runway to depart rwy 4 or rwy 22.

Ahh, I gotcha...I would have just specified runway 4 as the one you wanted...

I was cleared to taxi to RWY 22 via taxiway Bravo. It was striaght out to the runway from TAC Air.

Assuming you didn't cross the active runway, I see no problem with this....What am I missing here?

No I haven't tried Tradewinds. I was renting a car and meeting my son there and that is why I picked Amarillo.

Terry

:smile:

 

[skyflyer8]

AIM 4-3-20 states:
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. In the absence of ATC instructions the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by clearing the hold position marking associated with the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. This does not authorize an aircraft to cross a subsequent taxiway/runway/ramp after clearing the landing runway. (Notes 1&2 snipped)
c. Stop the aircraft after clearing the runway if instructions have not been received from ATC.
d. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance. (Notes 1&2 snipped)

So you made a couple boo-boos there.

Not sure what you meant about the taxiing to 22 stuff... I think you might have heard something wrong. Note though, that you can go ahead and switch from ground to tower when you're at the hold-short line. (Sorry I can't find the reference at this moment...)

The part about making a right turn - that was a miscommunication on your part. When you ask a tower for a right or left turn, they assume you mean the direction you will turn upon becoming airborne, in order to then head a certain direction (north, south, etc.). I often hear "left turnout to the north approved" and the like. You should have specifically requested a takeoff on runway 4 for a northbound departure and avoided the right/left phraseology.

If I were your instructor, your homework would be AIM chapter 4, which includes the nuances of air traffic control procedures at towered airports.

Good luck!

 

[KennyFlys]

Kate covered things with the AIM references. Ya don't want to remain on the runway any longer than absolutely necessary.

Get past the hold short line off the runway. If tower hasn't talked to you, they may be busy with another controller, land line or whatever. Go ahead and call ground, "Skyhawk three-five-one-zero-Alpha, Clear two-two at Bravo." They won't be upset with you on that.

Normally, tower will tell you to contact ground as you roll out or are taxiing off the runway. Whatever you do, don't continue to taxi beyond that point without specific instructions. I don't know how busy Amarillo is but that could get ya in trouble from a safety perspective at Austin. If you're not certain where you need to taxi to, be prepared with two things prior to making the trip... always have an airport diagram. They are available from Airnav's pages, from the NACO web site or from AOPA's flight planning pages. Next, know where your destination is on the airport.

Most of the time, a ground controller will ask you where you're parking. Just say "XYZ FBO" and they'll give you specific taxi instructions or simply say "Taxi to parking." If you need help finding it tell them, "Request progressive taxi." They would rather you get a hand than have you taxi into some place they don't want you to be or taxiing head on with someone much bigger than you. If that airport host air carrier operations, the last place you want to end up is a "Sterile Area" where the TSA rules. Amarillo does have air carrier operations.

Here is KAMA's diagram. In looking at the airport via a Google satellite picture, the sterile area is indicated by a red line that extends about half way between Bravo and Juliett to about halfway between Juliett and Charlie. There's an outer area outside of the sterile area. While it may be seem a minor mistake on your part, the TSA can ruin your day if you cross it. That's not meant to scare you but rather just save you from some hassle and one of the few times a controller may yell at a pilot.

Whether arriving or departing, if a particular runway works for you, ask for it. If they can accommodate you, they almost always will. When Austin was down to one runway for southern arrivals, we would often land with a tail wind on 17L. Another time both runways were operating fully, I wanted to get in faster so I asked for 35R while they were landing on the 17s. They actually had no problem with that but would have to delay me a bit as there were numerous arrivals for 17. That didn't work out for our purpose but the point is, they were willing to accommodate our request as long as we could accept the delay. ATC really does go out of the way to help us out. You'll find the same with a little practice.

One last thing I just thought of... Ironically, my student had this issue today returning after a solo flight. He just had to run into about the only cranky controller Austin has.

Any time you ever call ATC, make "Skyhawk" part of your call; that is "Skyhawk three-five-one-zero-Alpha." Just about every time you call a controller be it a tower, center or TRACON, he or she is going to ask you, "Say type of aircraft." When you add "Skyhawk" to your tail number, you've covered that base. He won't be looking up your registration so he won't have a clue if you're a 150, Conquest or a Citation.

Obviously, the type will very but whether you're in a Skyhawk or if you happen to be flying a 206, saying Stationair will help him out so he knows to be looking for a small high-wing aircraft. You're helping him out and cutting down on how much you have to say while you still need to fly the airplane.

I'm with Kate. Spend some time reviewing Chapter 4 in the AIM. Also, dig into http://www.LiveATC.net/ for a little listening of Class D and Class C airports. That may help you more with the phraseology and techniques used by pilots and controllers.

Best of luck out there. Have fun and be safe.

 

[TknoFlyer]

I landed and waited for the tower to tell me to exit at next taxiway. He did not. I called the tower and said, "3510A can exit taxiway B." By the time he answered me I was past taxiway Bravo. He said, turn at taxiway Bravo." I said, "3510A is back taxing for exit on taxiway Bravo."

As Kate and Ken have noted, this is a Bad Idea. Just get off on 1) the first available, safe taxiway or 2) the one specified by ATC (if it's safe for you).

There was no reply and I asked the tower where TAC Air was. He said straight ahead on my right and go ahead and contact ground now. I changed over to ground but by that time I was at TAC Air so ground and I had no discussion.

Risky business to do this without contacting ground first.

Everything worked out okay, the airport was not busy, but other Class C's are a lot more explicit on their instructions.

I'd say you've been sheltered.

I called clearance delivery and told them I was ready to taxi with info for departure to the northeast. They gave me clearance and said just stay on this frequency and to taxi to runway 22, via taxiway Bravo. I read back instructions and taxied to runway 22 and stopped at the hold line and did my run up. I finally had to ask ground if I could contact the tower for departure. Ground said, "3510A, next time stop and get permission before crossing main taxiway and proceeding to 22." I apologized and said I would be more careful. He then turned me over to the tower.

As Kate said, when you get to the runway, go ahead and switch to tower. The question I have is about the clarity of your taxi instructions. (I'm using the airport diagram from AirNav.) Was there any mention of Papa? If not, maybe they were anticipating an intersection departure. It appears you'd have some 6500'-7000' of runway on 22 from B. This would be a point to clear up next time. ("Say again" is not at all uncommon... )

What was wrong with this picture? I might add, everyone was courteous, no one yelled at me, and every one was relaxed, with the exception of me.

I will be flying back there in the next few weeks and plan to do a much better job. This was my first time into Amarillo and I just thought the radio communications was way lax.

ATC does try to work with us pilots as much as possible (at least in my experience), so I wouldn't get too enamored with "lax" comms. If they have anything close to a "push" (heavy traffic period), I'm sure comms would not be nearly so "lax" as you found it this time.

If you're interested, I have clips of real-world IFR/ATC traffic from many of my flights on my blog and YouTube.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I flew to Amarillo Sunday and notified the tower that I was 20 north with information India. Tower said, "Make straight in for 22 and notify tower when runway was in sight." I said, "3510A on straight in approach for 22 and report runway in sight." A few minutes later I said, "Amarillo tower, 3510A has runway in sight for straight in approach." Tower said, "State type of aircraft." "3510A is a 172." "Cleared to land runway 22. I said Cleared to land, 3510A for 22."

Okay, something's missing here. Amarillo is a class C - You don't call tower to start out with. Your initial call should be something like this, and judging by the sectional, probably on 119.5:

"Amarillo Approach, Skyhawk three five one zero alpha, turkey creek, six thousand, landing with India."

That gives them lots of information in a short time. It tells them you're a 172 (some may ask for clarification, but most should know exactly what type a Skyhawk is). It tells them where you are, it tells them whether your mode C is working properly, it tells them that you intend to make a full-stop landing, and it tells them that you have the proper altimeter setting.

Approach (not Tower) should have been who you were talking to initially, and Approach should be the ones giving you instructions like "One zero alpha, make straight in for runway 22, report runway in sight, squawk zero four three seven." (which you would of course acknowledge.)

If all goes well, the next thing that happens is you call the runway in sight, at which point you'll probably hear "One zero alpha, roger, contact tower."

At this point, you switch to the tower frequency of 118.3, and say "Amarillo Tower, Skyhawk three five one zero alpha, straight in for 22." Then they will clear you to land.

I landed and waited for the tower to tell me to exit at next taxiway. He did not.

No need. When you get to a taxiway where you can exit, you just exit. No permission or direction needed.

I called the tower and said, "3510A can exit taxiway B." By the time he answered me I was past taxiway Bravo. He said, turn at taxiway Bravo." I said, "3510A is back taxing for exit on taxiway Bravo."

If you told them you could exit at Bravo, you should have exited Bravo, or stopped where you could still exit at Bravo, or at the very least let them know once you were past it and no longer could. However, the expectation is that you'll exit the runway as soon as you're able.

There was no reply and I asked the tower where TAC Air was. He said straight ahead on my right and go ahead and contact ground now. I changed over to ground but by that time I was at TAC Air so ground and I had no discussion.

Theoretically, if you're told to contact ground you should contact them right away and stop just past the hold short line if you haven't heard back from them by then.

Everything worked out okay, the airport was not busy, but other Class C's are a lot more explicit on their instructions.

IME, the busier the class C, the fewer instructions you'll get, making even more important that you know the proper procedures. In this case, maybe it was just so slow the controllers were off in la-la land, who knows.

I called clearance delivery and told them I was ready to taxi with info for departure to the northeast. They gave me clearance and said just stay on this frequency and to taxi to runway 22, via taxiway Bravo. I read back instructions and taxied to runway 22 and stopped at the hold line and did my run up.

Okay so far, I think. Here, we call for a clearance like this "Madison Clearance, Skylane, 271G, VFR to Schaumburg at 5500." We get a clearance that goes "maintain VFR at or below 3000, departure frequency xxx.xx, squawk yyyy." Read it back, get the readback correct acknowledgement from them, and then either contact ground with most of what you said in the first line above. Some C's don't care whether VFR aircraft call clearance delivery like that, but again IME the busier they get, the more likely they'll want that, and at an unfamiliar field it's better to just go ahead and call them that way as it's the SOP nationwide, if not for that particular facility. I was reminded of this a bit harshly when I was at Chicago Midway and called back "ready to taxi" after getting my clearance... They told me to contact ground, which I hadn't done because I had gotten a bit too used to Clearance telling me "Readback correct, advise ready to taxi" and not having to switch frequencies.

I finally had to ask ground if I could contact the tower for departure.

Again, like getting off the runway, this is not something that you need to do. It's implied that when you arrive at the hold short line and you're ready, you'll flip over and contact tower without being told to. It's what they're expecting you to do.

Ground said, "3510A, next time stop and get permission before crossing main taxiway and proceeding to 22." I apologized and said I would be more careful. He then turned me over to the tower.

Unless you missed an instruction to hold short of that taxiway, the controller is wrong on this one. Unless instructed otherwise, if you're cleared to "taxi to runway xx" or "Taxi to runway xx at y intersection" you are cleared to cross all taxiways and runways to get there, EXCEPT the runway they told you to taxi to (in the somewhat-rare instance that the ramp is on the opposite side of a parallel taxiway at the departure end of the runway that you're assigned to, for example).

The wind was calm and I thought the tower would let me make a right turn and head out to the north. So I asked the tower if I could make a right turn and depart to the north, which would have been rwy4.

Here's where the confusion starts. If they told you to taxi to 22, even if it was at an intersection, 22 is the runway they're going to assign you for takeoff unless you request otherwise. If you do want to request otherwise, call them up with this: "Amarillo Tower, Skyhawk 3510A holding short of 22 at Bravo, request runway 4 for takeoff." Better yet, request it from ground control when you call them for the first time - I fly from the South ramp here, which is right next to the approach end of 32, so often if the winds are light, even if ATIS says they're using 18 and 21, I'll call "Madison Ground, Skylane 271G, south ramp with Uniform, ready to taxi, request 32 for departure." I get it every time. Remember, that you are the PIC and ATC's job is to accommodate your requests as long as they work with everything else that's going on. You don't have to accept anything they assign you, and you should feel free to request exactly what you want. Be nice, though!

The tower said said right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22. So, I said, 3510A, cleared for take off on 22. Contact departure on 121.9 after take off. I turned left, took off on runway 22. Contacted departure and made a left climbing turn to the north east and was soon cleared of Amarillo airspace.

See, the runway assignment is going to dictate the direction of turns on the ground. When they said "right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22" you made a left turn both on the ground and in the air. They were expecting you to make a left on the ground, and a right in the air, as you requested - Even though that's not what you meant, that's what you said meant.

This was my first time into Amarillo and I just thought the radio communications was way lax.

On whose part?

So all, be nice, but see if you can make me feel better. What should I have done differently?

Hope this helps!

Hey, next time, take a small audio recorder with you so we can hear them too! That might help solve some of the mysteries too, especially why the ground controller on the flight where you left chastised you. Might give you the evidence you need to be sure of how things happened, and then call the facility manager and have them listen to the tape, because as you described it, the controller screwed up - You taxied exactly where he said to, and he chastised you for it. It's also possible that there was a misunderstanding, and maybe that's another thing that can be clarified, but without the audio, who knows? What time was your flight out on Monday?

 

[KennyFlys]

Nothing was missing at all. Perhaps terms were misstated in the scenario but the instructor needs to start the explanation at the heart of the question or issue addressed. Find out what's not understood with regard to the specific issues brought up. Answer those then expand as needed. If you pile too much beyond answering the original question before developing a correlation, the original issue may become lost. After that, expand.

 

[roncachamp]

Hi all;
This story starts with Amarillo approach handing me off to Amarillo tower.

I flew to Amarillo Sunday and notified the tower that I was 20 north with information India. Tower said, "Make straight in for 22 and notify tower when runway was in sight." I said, "3510A on straight in approach for 22 and report runway in sight." A few minutes later I said, "Amarillo tower, 3510A has runway in sight for straight in approach." Tower said, "State type of aircraft." "3510A is a 172." "Cleared to land runway 22. I said Cleared to land, 3510A for 22."

You're apparently using "tower" to identify both tower and approach. You wrote, "Tower said, 'Make straight in for 22 and notify tower when runway was in sight'." Is that a verbatim quote? Approach might tell a VFR inbound to "report runway in sight", telling one to "notify tower when runway was in sight" is a bit unusual.

How did you identify yourself on your initial call to approach? Had you used "Skyhawk 3510A" approach wouldn't have needed to ask your type aircraft.

I landed and waited for the tower to tell me to exit at next taxiway. He did not. I called the tower and said, "3510A can exit taxiway B." By the time he answered me I was past taxiway Bravo. He said, turn at taxiway Bravo." I said, "3510A is back taxing for exit on taxiway Bravo."

If tower says nothing about exiting the runway you should exit the runway at the first available taxiway. You shouldn't back taxi without specific instructions.

There was no reply and I asked the tower where TAC Air was. He said straight ahead on my right and go ahead and contact ground now. I changed over to ground but by that time I was at TAC Air so ground and I had no discussion.

Did tower tell you to taxi to TAC Air? Did tower give you any taxi instructions at all? If not, you should have stopped on taxiway bravo once past the hold short lines and contacted ground.

Everything worked out okay, the airport was not busy, but other Class C's are a lot more explicit on their instructions.

Others are more explicit in what way? This one told you to report the runway in sight, there's no need for that with a VFR aircraft.

Departing Monday.

I called clearance delivery and told them I was ready to taxi with info for departure to the northeast.

Why tell clearance delivery you're ready to taxi?

They gave me clearance and said just stay on this frequency and to taxi to runway 22, via taxiway Bravo. I read back instructions and taxied to runway 22 and stopped at the hold line and did my run up. I finally had to ask ground if I could contact the tower for departure. Ground said, "3510A, next time stop and get permission before crossing main taxiway and proceeding to 22." I apologized and said I would be more careful. He then turned me over to the tower.

If you were instructed to taxi to runway 22 via bravo then you don't need explicit instructions to cross taxiway papa. If they wanted you to hold short of papa they'd have to tell you to hold short of papa.

You don't have to wait for instruction to contact tower for takeoff. When you're ready for takeoff just call tower.

The wind was calm and I thought the tower would let me make a right turn and head out to the north.

Did you want to depart to the north? Previously you had told clearance you were departing to the northeast.

So I asked the tower if I could make a right turn and depart to the north, which would have been rwy4. The tower said said right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22. So, I said, 3510A, cleared for take off on 22.

You say the wind was calm but what runways were advertised on the ATIS? If runway 22 was active and there was inbound traffic you're going to be given runway 22. If there's no other traffic tower just might offer runway 22 to a northeast departure. But in any case you were free to request runway four.

Contact departure on 121.9 after take off.

Contact departure on ground control frequency?

I turned left, took off on runway 22. Contacted departure and made a left climbing turn to the north east and was soon cleared of Amarillo airspace.

Ah. The "right turn" when tower said "right turn approved, cleared for take off on 22" was a right turn AFTER takeoff, not a right turn onto the runway from the taxiway.

 

[roncachamp]

If you told them you could exit at Bravo, you should have exited Bravo, or stopped where you could still exit at Bravo, or at the very least let them know once you were past it and no longer could. However, the expectation is that you'll exit the runway as soon as you're able.

If you can exit at bravo you should exit at bravo and stop once past the hold short lines. Don't stop on the runway or on taxiway bravo on the runway side of the hold short lines without specific instructions to do so.

 

[Everskyward]

It's implied that when you arrive at the hold short line and you're ready, you'll flip over and contact tower without being told to. It's what they're expecting you to do.

The exception being at Denver Centennial (KAPA)... "Special procedures" have been in effect for a long time, say 15 years or more, and you are supposed to contact ground when you are ready for departure. They say it clearly every time on ATIS but I know that switching to tower automatically when ready for takeoff is a hard habit to break for transients.

 

[roncachamp]

The exception being at Denver Centennial (KAPA)... "Special procedures" have been in effect for a long time, say 15 years or more, and you are supposed to contact ground when you are ready for departure. They say it clearly every time on ATIS but I know that switching to tower automatically when ready for takeoff is a hard habit to break for transients.

So you're number one at the hold short line, you call KAPA ground control and tell the controller you're ready for departure. What response could he have other than "contact tower"?

 

[Everskyward]

So you're number one at the hold short line, you call KAPA ground control and tell the controller you're ready for departure. What response could he have other than "contact tower"?

"Stay with me, awaiting IFR release" is one.

 

[roncachamp]

"Stay with me, awaiting IFR release" is one.

I'd have called for that when the guy began his taxi. What are the others?

 

[Everskyward]

I'd have called for that when the guy began his taxi. What are the others?

I think this whole procedure was developed because, before that, airplanes would crowd up to the hold line then someone from the back row would call ready for takeoff. It's a way to have ground sequence the airplanes for departure before they move to the hold line and monitor tower. I think the method works pretty well. It's just different from what it used elsewhere.

 

[TknoFlyer]

It's just different from what it used elsewhere.

That's the problem I see with it. Why can't the sequencing be worked out by ground control during taxi? The controller's the one granting taxi clearance to specific runways.

 

[Everskyward]

That's the problem I see with it. Why can't the sequencing be worked out by ground control during taxi? The controller's the one granting taxi clearance to specific runways.

If y'all have "why" questions you need to call Centennial Tower and ask them. I'm just telling you how it is.

 

[gkainz]

You can listen in and see for yourself at
http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=class-d-center

Edit - actually, that's tower, so one won't hear ground's instructions - sorry
2nd Edit - it's ground and tower - multiplexed, I guess
3rd Edit - it's DEN Appch, APA tower and APA ground ... maybe more?

 

[Everskyward]

You can listen in and see for yourself at
http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=class-d-center

Edit - actually, that's tower, so one won't hear ground's instructions - sorry

If it's the tower you'll be able to hear that no one calls up "ready for takeoff" and if they do they might be reminded by the tower of what was said on the ATIS.

 

[ScottM]

The exception being at Denver Centennial (KAPA)... "Special procedures" have been in effect for a long time, say 15 years or more, and you are supposed to contact ground when you are ready for departure. They say it clearly every time on ATIS but I know that switching to tower automatically when ready for takeoff is a hard habit to break for transients.

Even says that in the AFD

ADVISE GROUND CONTROL WHEN READY FOR DEPARTURE. GROUND CONTROL WILL ADVISE WHEN TO MONITOR THE TOWER FREQUENCY.

 

[roncachamp]

I think this whole procedure was developed because, before that, airplanes would crowd up to the hold line then someone from the back row would call ready for takeoff. It's a way to have ground sequence the airplanes for departure before they move to the hold line and monitor tower. I think the method works pretty well. It's just different from what it used elsewhere.

Previously you said at KAPA "you are supposed to contact ground when you are ready for departure." If you're not at the runway you're not ready for departure and shouldn't call tower.

 

[roncachamp]

Even says that in the AFD

All that accomplishes is two unnecessary transmissions per departure.

 

[Everskyward]

Previously you said at KAPA "you are supposed to contact ground when you are ready for departure." If you're not at the runway you're not ready for departure and shouldn't call tower.

All I remember is that there was somewhat of a free-for-all in the runup area before this procedure was established. Some airplanes get done with their runups faster than others and some don't need runups so the order they taxi out is meaningless. Remember I said it was at least 15 years ago so I don't remember the details. Since then it has worked much better. At the time I rememeber thinking that maybe it was a test bed for this procedure and that it might be adopted elsewhere in the future. I guess not.

 

[sba55]

Terry,

In addition to what was said above - one technique I've found to be very useful is to tell tower on initial call-up where you're parking. This is more useful at some airports than others, but in general, it can help them to plan your route across the field and, if you're unfamiliar with the airport, you probably will be assigned a runway that's close to your parking spot.

-Felix

 

[sba55]

All I remember is that there was somewhat of a free-for-all in the runup area before this procedure was established. Some airplanes get done with their runups faster than others and some don't need runups so the order they taxi out is meaningless. Remember I said it was at least 15 years ago so I don't remember the details. Since then it has worked much better. At the time I rememeber thinking that maybe it was a test bed for this procedure and that it might be adopted elsewhere in the future. I guess not.

Well - at Santa Monica and Sacramento Exec, they just give you the clearance on first call-up before you taxi. This works out really well because I'm usually ready for takeoff by the time I get to the runway and there really is nothing more frustrating then being stuck behind another plane.

-Felix

 

[Everskyward]

Well - at Santa Monica and Sacramento Exec, they just give you the clearance on first call-up before you taxi.

When you say clearance, do you mean your IFR clearance? This is how they do it at KAPA too and a lot of other places. When I talk about waiting for your IFR release that's something different. At KAPA, tower needs to get permission from Denver TRACON to release an IFR airplane into the airspace. At Santa Monica I know they need permission from LA to release you as I have waited for my release a number of times.

 

[sba55]

When you say clearance, do you mean your IFR clearance? This is how they do it at KAPA too and a lot of other places. When I talk about waiting for your IFR release that's something different. At KAPA, tower needs to get permission from Denver TRACON to release an IFR airplane into the airspace. At Santa Monica I know they need permission from LA to release you as I have waited for my release a number of times.

Ohhh. I guess that was a case of reading too quickly

I was at KAPA a number of years ago, but I don't remember where we got our IFR release. Getting it on/before taxi would be nice, though.

 

[Everskyward]

I was at KAPA a number of years ago, but I don't remember where we got our IFR release. Getting it on/before taxi would be nice, though.

Unless there is a delay in getting the release they won't specifically tell you, they'll just clear you for takeoff so the process is invisible to you.

Sorry Terry (the OP) for hijacking your thread. I just wanted to point out that there are places where procedures may be different from what you are expecting which is why it's a good thing to pay attention to the ATIS and not just let it become background noise.

 

[roncachamp]

When you say clearance, do you mean your IFR clearance? This is how they do it at KAPA too and a lot of other places. When I talk about waiting for your IFR release that's something different. At KAPA, tower needs to get permission from Denver TRACON to release an IFR airplane into the airspace. At Santa Monica I know they need permission from LA to release you as I have waited for my release a number of times.

The solution is to obtain the release prior to issuing taxi clearance to the runway. Having a departure call ground control instead of tower when he's at the runway ready to depart accomplishes nothing.

 

[ScottM]

The solution is to obtain the release prior to issuing taxi clearance to the runway.

Most times that is what happens for me. But I have been places where I get the taxi clearance and have been told my IFR clearance is on request.

 

[KennyFlys]

It appears a few folks here attempting to answer questions need to review the definition of terms, themselves. Other than that, if you call up ground for taxi without ATIS and a clearance, you'll likely get a short lecture. At a Class C, if you call clearance without ATIS, again, another lecture.

As Mari indicated, some facilities have their little idiosyncrasies and they are usually laid out in the AFD and ATIS if not at least ATIS. Failure to follow them will get ya a lecture. If you're a student pilot, adding "student pilot" to your announcement will get ya a little help without a lecture. But, learn soon lest the assistance become a lecture.

I got the impression one person was taxiing at a towered airport before saying word to anyone. I'm sure that's not the case, just a bad description of what is actually happening... sort of like the original poster. Yet, the same are giving instructions to him. Perhaps a bit of self-review is in order before offering advice. I sometimes have a student explain themselves a couple times to make sure I understand the issue they are facing. If I don't, my answer will probably miss the mark as well. Other than that, I don't start the answer with something that wasn't addressed lest I confuse the student. Only after the original issue was addressed and the student clear will I expand. And, I'll do so by saying something similar to, "You mentioned "Subject B" earlier. Let's talk about that for a moment." If "B" is something that normally precedes what was "A" then tie it in later. Don't convolute the answer for the original question.

Sometimes, the student will ask questions that are in advance of the current portion of an explanation. Don't stop where you are and answer, continue with a sequential explanation stating you'll get there. Something about the "cart before the horse." But, don't move on to the cart before the coupling from the horse is clearly understood.

 

[Everskyward]

The solution is to obtain the release prior to issuing taxi clearance to the runway. Having a departure call ground control instead of tower when he's at the runway ready to depart accomplishes nothing.

Why don't you call Centennial Tower and ask them why they do things the way they do them? Since you're a controller you can call it professional curiosity....

 

[KennyFlys]

The solution is to obtain the release prior to issuing taxi clearance to the runway. Having a departure call ground control instead of tower when he's at the runway ready to depart accomplishes nothing.

Steven, Sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I disagree. I'm neither on this issue. For whatever reason, APA established this procedure and it probably happen due to some safety issue that came up years ago. Heck, it's possible the procedure may have been in place for so long, no one there could even tell you why it was put into place. But, it's there so ya gotta comply, even if it makes absolutely no sense. And, I agree. On the surface, it doesn't make any sense.

So, who volunteers to call APA's ATCT to ask why?

 

[Everskyward]

On the surface, it doesn't make any sense.

I like the way it is now, particularly because I remember the way it was before. I think everyone else needs to assimilate.

 

[roncachamp]

Why don't you call Centennial Tower and ask them why they do things the way they do them?

If I ever find myself at KAPA I'll do that. Until then I'll leave it up to those that do fly there.

 

[roncachamp]

Even says that in the AFD

ADVISE GROUND CONTROL WHEN READY FOR DEPARTURE. GROUND CONTROL WILL ADVISE WHEN TO MONITOR THE TOWER FREQUENCY.

It's stated a bit differently in the Centennial ATCT Standard Operating Procedures:


"When aircraft advises run-up is complete, sequence the aircraft with other departures and turn aircraft over to tower. Phraseology example:

'MONITOR TOWER AT THE HOLD LINE'​

OR​

'PROCEED TO THE HOLD LINE, MONITOR TOWER'​

Then place strip in the local control departure bay above the departure header."​

 

[ScottM]

It's stated a bit differently in the Centennial ATCT Standard Operating Procedures:

Which is info that pilots normally do not look at.

But it does sound like KAPA ATC expect the piltos to stay on ground frequency until advised to change to tower and not for them to automatically go to tower when ready for take off.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Which is info that pilots normally do not look at.

But it does sound like KAPA ATC expect the piltos to stay on ground frequency until advised to change to tower and not for them to automatically go to tower when ready for take off.

You know, if it isn't a standardized thing, these places OUGHT to put what they expect on the ATIS. Then there is no question what they want.