ScottM
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iBazinga!
Tower, are you there?
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Greg Bockelman
Quick response.
I didn't read the whole thread, so I missed most ALL of what was said. 
Everskyward
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Everskyward
And if you are really, really curious what they actually say...
ATIS: 303-799-6722
ATIS: 303-799-6722
roncachamp
Final Approach
No it doesn't. According to the SOP pilots should be on tower frequency when they reach the runway. According to the AF/D they should still be on ground control frequency.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
You lost me.
The section you quoted sure makes it sound as the aircraft calls ground after it is finished with its runup and notifies ground, that then ground tells them to go to tower.
So to reach the runway does not the aircraft make a call to ground at KAPA and then the ground controller states to taxi to the hold line and monitor tower or to proceed to the hold line, monitor tower?
And remember we are only talking about KAPA in this post not everywhere else.
The AFD state
Which sure sounds like the ATC procedure are in synch. A pilot will be on the ground frequency until advised to change to tower once ATC has been advised that they are ready for take off.
Now "by reach the runway" are you saying when they cross the hold short line or do you mean when they are advised to taxi to a runway but hold short?
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Yes, that is exactly how it is.
Airplane: "Centennial ground, Cessna 123 runup complete."
Ground: "Cessna 123, proceed to the hold line, monitor tower"
Airplane: Silently monitors tower at the hold line and waits for takeoff clearance.
roncachamp
Final Approach
"The following special procedures are in effect:
All aircraft advise ground control when ready for departure for your IFR release and sequencing to the runway."
In other words, call ground control when ready to taxi from parking. What's so special about that procedure?
Everskyward
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Everskyward
"Ready for departure" means your runup is complete and you are ready to take off... right now. That way they can sequence you to the runway with all the other airplanes that are also ready.
Of course you call ground when you are ready to taxi from parking, just like at other airports, but you call them again when your runup is complete. It's not that complicated, just different.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
The "monitor" command is a fun one. Ask Greg what happens when told to "monitor" at KORD and someone decides to announce themselves. I think it give the controller special warm feeling when they get to explain the command 'monitor'
Everskyward
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Everskyward
They don't have any qualms about explaining "monitor" to pilots at KAPA either.
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
So, if something isn't broke, do you fix it till it is? Seems the proceedure works even though it may be non-standard. As longs as it keeps iron from beeing bent, leave it alone.
K
KennyFlys
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Mari, are run-ups completed on some area of the ramp prior to entering any taxiway? That's the impression I get from your posts.
Even at Austin, we will do run-ups near the runway. On 17L/35R, there are two leads from the taxiway to the runway. There are no places on the ramp for run-up even though some idiots will... blowing debris on other aircraft and personnel.
Even at Austin, we will do run-ups near the runway. On 17L/35R, there are two leads from the taxiway to the runway. There are no places on the ramp for run-up even though some idiots will... blowing debris on other aircraft and personnel.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
No. You do a run up in the run up area near the runway after taxiing there, just like at other airports. The ONLY difference is that when you are done you tell ground instead of automatically switching to tower. Ground will tell you your sequence then tell you to monitor tower at the hold line.
Holy cats, I had no idea that people would find this so confusing...
K
KennyFlys
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Most airports I've been to, there is a run-up area near the runway. Not so at Austin. So, you're really sitting in line for departure the moment you pull up and are still completing the Before Takeoff check list.
I've never flown out of APA so I had no clue about the details of the taxiway layout. I was wondering if they were trying to have more control over those during taxi along with those holding short and not released to the tower.
As said before, it's non-conventional but it works. Don't fix what ain't broke. Now, if the TSA would learn that concept!
roncachamp
Final Approach
What does "ready for departure" mean to you? To me, it means I'm ready to depart, to takeoff, and that only happens when I'm at the runway with all pretakeoff items complete. The AIM seems to agree with me as the only time the phrase appears in that weighty tome is this:
"Cleveland Tower, Apache Three Seven Two Two Papa, at
the intersection of taxiway Oscar and runway two three
the intersection of taxiway Oscar and runway two three
right, ready for departure."
But the KAPA A/FD entry tells pilots to call ground control instead of the tower when they're ready for departure. All that does is create two unnecessary transmissions per IFR departure.
Steve
En-Route
I suspect the reason for the ground freq requirement is the parallel 17/35 arrangement at KAPA. Traffic density may cause last moment changes in runway assignments for departures. Tower freqs aren't normally used for departure runway assignments (unless Tower Boy is the only one working all the freqs).
Just a SWAG.
KHKS now requires you to hold at the ILS hold line instead of the runway hold line on 16. That took some getting use to for the locals.
Just a SWAG.
KHKS now requires you to hold at the ILS hold line instead of the runway hold line on 16. That took some getting use to for the locals.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Actually no. They rarely use the west runway for departures. Honestly I think the procedure was developed because, in the past, (there was more traffic then than there is now) there was sometimes a gaggle of airplanes crowding up to the hold line jockeying for position. Then someone who didn't have access to the runway would call, ready for takeoff. I think they decided to have ground control sort out the sequencing, that would leave tower freer to control the airplanes in the air. Also by having the airplane waiting to take off monitor the frequency instead of talk, it cut down on radio congestion.
Steve
En-Route
I can buy that.
People tend to overlook that "Tower" only has jurisdiction over runway real estate traffic separation and no where else, although they do often try to sequence arrivals to assure that. ["cleared to land" is another pet peeve of mine but that is a whole 'nother thread]
People tend to overlook that "Tower" only has jurisdiction over runway real estate traffic separation and no where else, although they do often try to sequence arrivals to assure that. ["cleared to land" is another pet peeve of mine but that is a whole 'nother thread]
roncachamp
Final Approach
That's fine, but it isn't what the A/FD is telling pilots to do.
Everskyward
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roncachamp
Final Approach
If "Ready for departure" means my runup is complete and I'm ready to take off... right now, it means I'm already at the runway and there's nothing left for ground control to sequence.
Of course you call ground again when your runup is complete, you're not yet at the runway.
roncachamp
Final Approach
No. Why would I attempt to "fix" something which isn't broken?
The procedure in the SOP sounds fine, but it isn't what the A/FD is telling pilots to do.
kevin47881
Final Approach
Steven, why is every post you make argumentative? Really, I'm curious.
roncachamp
Final Approach
According to the SOP pilots at the runway awaiting takeoff clearance are to monitor tower frequency. The A/FD directs them to contact ground control.
Speed
Pre-takeoff checklist
LOL. Well, it makes perfect sense to me. Also reminds me somewhat of TEB. You frequently get told to line-up in the runup area, and stay with ground until further advised. When they decide it is your turn, they'll tell you to taxi to the hold-short line and monitor tower.
Clark1961
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Steve - I suggest you fly out of APA before making these bold pronouncements.
In general the "ready for departure" call is made from the run-up area and ground tells you to hold short and monitor tower. There's lots of room for several aircraft to be at the hold-short line which is immediately adjacent to the run-up area (for the N-S runways).
Contrast that with every other towered field I've been to where you make the call to the tower after run-up completion even though the run-up area is is close to the hold-short similar to APA.
APA is different and both the ATIS and the AF/D tell you that it is different.
Of course and as always, YMMV.
K
KennyFlys
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What was Terry's original question, again?
Man, talk about thread creep.
Man, talk about thread creep.
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
Not creep, Kenny, flat out assaulted and hijacked! Terry, I hope you can take the good nuggets from the responses to your question and have a more enjoyable and less confussing trip to KAMA next time. Amarillo is a great town. Grab a steak from the place just outside of the perimeter fence! Best chunk of beef you will ever eat!
roncachamp
Final Approach
Bold pronouncements? It's really just simple logic.
It's not all that different in practice. The odd thing is the A/FD statement directing pilots to contact ground control instead of tower when ready for takeoff. If you read the SOP it's immediately clear that that's not what they want. The A/FD statement should be deleted. The "special procedures" statement should have the words "to taxi" added to it; "All aircraft advise ground control when ready to taxi for departure for your IFR release and sequencing to the runway."
Terry
Line Up and Wait
Hi All;
Thanks for all the good advice. Let me throw a monkey wrench into the picture. I am tempted to let this slide but it wouldn't feel right too.
I fly Microsoft 2004 a lot on my computer because it helps me stay on top of things,,,,,,,well sort of,,,,,,,,,
When I land it says, " 3510A, exit next taxiway" After exiting MS4 says contact ground on 121.9.
Salina, KS. and Wichita, KS. controllers tell me to exit next taxiway. This was a first for me not being told to exit. I was trying to follow instructions to the letter and was the first time the tower never told me to exit. From now on I will get off the runway correctly.
As for "back taxing" I fly non towered airports 99% of the time. I was taught to back taxi. Is this not an approved procedure? Is it just for non towered airports?
Also, I guess I have been sheltered and this was my first time with a "quiet controller."
I will return to Amarillo in the next month or so. Next time I WILL Execute my assigned duties flawlessly.
Thanks;
Terry
Happy New Year!!!
Thanks for all the good advice. Let me throw a monkey wrench into the picture. I am tempted to let this slide but it wouldn't feel right too.
I fly Microsoft 2004 a lot on my computer because it helps me stay on top of things,,,,,,,well sort of,,,,,,,,,
When I land it says, " 3510A, exit next taxiway" After exiting MS4 says contact ground on 121.9.
Salina, KS. and Wichita, KS. controllers tell me to exit next taxiway. This was a first for me not being told to exit. I was trying to follow instructions to the letter and was the first time the tower never told me to exit. From now on I will get off the runway correctly.
As for "back taxing" I fly non towered airports 99% of the time. I was taught to back taxi. Is this not an approved procedure? Is it just for non towered airports?
Also, I guess I have been sheltered and this was my first time with a "quiet controller."
I will return to Amarillo in the next month or so. Next time I WILL Execute my assigned duties flawlessly.
Thanks;
Terry
Happy New Year!!!
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
Terry, there is nothing wrong with a back taxi. Just make sure you have the tower's blessing before executing such a maneuver. There may be traffic on final that may be sent around beacuse of your unannounced escapade on the runway. Nothing will get you chastized faster than doing something unexpected at a "big" airport!
roncachamp
Final Approach
At some airports there's no alternative, the absence of taxiways force aircraft to back-taxi. Don't do it where it's not required and thus unexpected without ATC approval.
K
KennyFlys
Guest
Some controllers will give the benefit of you knowing where you want to go. At Austin, they often expect you to exit at Kilo for Atlantic or Lima for Signature. Other times, they'll want me off sooner for traffic landing behind me. Then, there's times they'll direct me to roll out and exit at Kilo; often to allow for traffic moving both directions on the two parallel taxiways. It's anyone's guess what instructions you might get sometimes. But unless instructed otherwise, turn off at the next possible taxiway.
Let me throw one more caveat in there. No matter how much a controller rushes you, maintain control of your aircraft in a manner you feel most safe. If that means you're still rolling to fast to make the taxiway instructed, don't force the issue if you can't safely slow down in time. Simply say "Unable" and continue to the next possible taxiway.
Let me throw one more caveat in there. No matter how much a controller rushes you, maintain control of your aircraft in a manner you feel most safe. If that means you're still rolling to fast to make the taxiway instructed, don't force the issue if you can't safely slow down in time. Simply say "Unable" and continue to the next possible taxiway.
Clark1961
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Nope, you've still got it wrong.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
Nope it does not neccassrily mean that.
At KPWK, because of the heavy mix of ligth GA and bizjet GA, they do not want people pulling up to the hold short line and then have to wait for release due to KORD issues and stop all traffic. So after you run up in the runup area you contact tower, unlike KAPA, and advise 'ready for takeoff'. They may ask you to remain in the runup area or will tell you to proceed to the runway and/or hold short. I have had that experience at other airports as well.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
When you are at the ramp and call APA ground saying you are ready to taxi, where do they tell you to taxi to? Because if they tell me to taxi to runway XX, I am going all the way to the hold line at runway XX and then telling ground I am ready for departure. Sound like ground should be saying taxi to the penalty box, and tell us when your run up is done. I'm siding with Steve on this one if they tell you to taxi to the runway, and not a staging area.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
It sounds like that would solve the issue Steven has with the KAPA method, as it does not introduce any additional radio calls - You're just calling from the runup area instead of the hold-short line. Thing is, it seems like that would mean they'd need a bigger hole in traffic before they'd issue you a takeoff clearance. Here, I call in at the line and once in a while will get "71G, cleared for takeoff, no delay, jet traffic on a mile and a half final." By the time he's finished and I acknowledge, I'm on the runway with the throttle firewalled. I don't think that'd work so well calling in from the runup pad.
roncachamp
Final Approach
It can mean only that.
That's the same thing that's done at APA except ground control is handling the taxi from the runup to the hold short line.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
roncachamp
Final Approach
I don't have an issue with the KAPA "method", just with the statement in the A/FD.
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