Tower, are you there?

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EdFred said:
I agree with you when reading ONLY the AFD. However, Call ATIS (303) 799 6722 and it is a bit more clear, as they say call ground when complete with runup for sequencing to the runway.
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I did call the ATIS, I posted that portion earlier in this discussion. It's clear they want aircraft to stop in the runup area, the problem is they're authorizing aircraft to taxi past that point. If they instructed aircraft to "taxi to runway XX runup area" instead of "taxi to runway XX" the A/FD and ATIS statements could be eliminated.
 
Clark1961 said:
You are the only person in this thread who admits to interpreting the A/FD that way.
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If you believe that you haven't read the whole thread.

In other words Steven, you are free to make up your own meaning for "ready for departure" but the rest of us know that we are "ready for departure" when we call ground after the run-up. In conclusion the A/FD does not mandate the second call that you claim it does. Sorry but that's the way it is.
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Unless you're in a helicopter, how can you be "ready for departure" if you're not at a runway?

Don't ya think the A/FD would have been changed by now if it was truly wrong???
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Not necessarily, things that are truly wrong can remain in the A/FD for a very long time.

Well one thing is certain, it's special around here.
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At APA? Wouldn't it be the norm there?

Tell ya what, I'll grant you the lack of specialness if you admit that you are deliberately misinterpreting the A/FD.
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I'm interpreting the A/FD literally.
 
smigaldi said:
I have been in places where they expect you to stay in the runup area. It is not common by any stretch but it is not unheard of either.
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If they expect you to stay there they have to tell you to stay there.
 
KennyFlys said:
Or, the pilot could apply some common sense. How far do you think you should be able to continue taxiing to a runway hold-short line after a period of non-movement? A hundred feet? Two hundred? Five hundred?
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Assuming the taxi instruction was "taxi to runway XX, all the way.

Common sense and safety dictate this... talk to ground one last time before leaving the run-up area. Unless, you know for certain the airport you're at has something different expected. If you're not sure, ask ground. If it's a Class C or B, ask clearance.
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Common sense dictates this... If ground control expects an additional call before proceeding from the runup area to the runway they shouldn't issue taxi instructions that authorize proceeding to the runway without making that call.
 
EdFred said:
Here's the problem I have. I am usually going to do my runup at the edge of a non movement area (outside the single dashed line) that way, if I have an issue with the mags or prop, I haven't taxied 1/2 a mile or mile to the end of the runway, only to find out I have to taxi back. So, if I were to call ground at APA, and say I'm ready to taxi, and they say taxi to XX, I'm not even going to the runup area, because I've already done it. So I taxi alllllllll the way to thold short line, only to call ground again, to tell them I'm ready. Of course ground probably expects me to have done a runup out at the runway, and now, I've jacked everything up, because I am "out of order" and the ATIS/AFD is not specific in that I don't actually taxi to the runway at APA when told to taxi to the runway at APA.

Or am I missing something?
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It appears you got it all.
 
Clark1961 said:
What you're missing is the standard practice of advising ground that you'll be ready to go when you reach the runway. That practice seems to work at most controlled fields. APA ground is used to that call and can manage that situation quite well.
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Where is that practice standard? At most controlled fields that call is made to the tower.
 
EdFred said:
Well I called ATIS at KAPA tonight at 830 KAPA time, and everything was combined on Tower. So I have no clue what the hell you are supposed to do at KAPA anymore.
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I called the number yesterday, this is what was said:

"The following special procedures are in effect. All aircraft advise ground control when ready for departure for your IFR release and sequencing to the runway."

The APA tower SOP doesn't contain a "script" for the ATIS, it says only, "Record ATIS in accordance with format posted at FD position". FD is Flight Data.
 
KennyFlys said:
Pistons make a big difference. Not every pilot is comfortable with a rolling run-up.
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Not every jet pilot is comfortable with a rolling take-off, either. Which is why you tell them that you'll be ready at the end. It doesn't make a difference from a controller's point of view. Makes sense now? If not, sorry, but I'm done explaining such a simple concept. :)
 
EdFred said:
Ok, just called ATIS again, it says "advise ground when your run-up is complete for sequence to the runway" So I guess in this case I would tell them it is complete when I leave the ramp. Something I have never done anywhere else.
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When I called yesterday it said, "The following special procedures are in effect, all aircraft advise ground control when ready for departure for your IFR release and sequencing to the runway."
 
EdFred said:
I agree with you when reading ONLY the AFD. However, Call ATIS (303) 799 6722 and it is a bit more clear, as they say call ground when complete with runup for sequencing to the runway.
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I did call ATIS (303) 799 6722, this is what it said:

"The following special procedures are in effect, all aircraft advise ground control when ready for departure for your IFR release and sequencing to the runway."

No mention of runup.
 
roncachamp said:
I did call ATIS (303) 799 6722, this is what it said:

"The following special procedures are in effect, all aircraft advise ground control when ready for departure for your IFR release and sequencing to the runway."

No mention of runup.
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Oh, they went IFR. When I called this morning they did mention runups. Sound like the ATIS isn't consistant.
 
roncachamp said:
Do you mean the field went below VFR minimums? Why would that make a difference?
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When I called, they said nothing about IFR releases. It was about 830 am APA time. The ATIS said "contact ground control after your runup is complete for sequencing to the runway."

And when I called just now (back to VFR) they mention nothing of runups.

That has to be the most bass ackwards airport I have ever seen run.
 
RMCN172RG said:
YOu will be talking to Clearance/Ground/Tower remaining on the same frequency. I know at MYR dring slow periods the same person is on all three. You here them no matter which one you are on.
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That isn't necessarily always true. Here, it's very rare to hear Ground and Tower on the same frequency. Usually, Clearance and Ground are on the same frequency most of the time, and usually with the same controller, but they may or may not be transmitting on both frequencies. Sometimes, all three are separate controllers if it's busy. You simply can't count on them always being the same. I think that's why the Clearance controller said to stay on the same frequency, because he was working Ground too and didn't need another call-up. Without him saying that, the pilot does not know that it's the same controller and should make a separate call to ground. In fact, unless the Clearance controller says "Readback correct, advise ready to taxi" I still switch to the ground frequency before calling them back.

Either way, you should never stay on a ground frequency with the intention of talking to the tower controller, even if it's the same controller working. There are only 4 designated ground control frequencies IIRC (121.6, 7, 8, and 9) and they're able to use so few because, well, everyone's on the ground and the signal won't make it to the next airport over. If you broadcast on ground in the air 'cuz you didn't switch to the tower frequency before takeoff, chances are your voice will be heard at a few other airports too.
 
roncachamp said:
If you believe that you haven't read the whole thread.

Unless you're in a helicopter, how can you be "ready for departure" if you're not at a runway?

Not necessarily, things that are truly wrong can remain in the A/FD for a very long time.

At APA? Wouldn't it be the norm there?

I'm interpreting the A/FD literally.
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Well Steven I have read the whole thread and at the time I posted it was true. Obviously you're overlooking that detail.

As to being read for departure, I'm at that point in the run-up area after run-up and preflight checks. The 20 or 50 yards to the hold line is not consequential.

As to where it's special, well you're once again being obtuse. I will say nothing more than that.

As for your interpretation, I strongly suggest you learn to be practical. Being practical is a trait I highly admire in people. On the other hand, if it is for more than a joke then the literal and obtuse folks are just a bore. They don't produce anything but argument and discord.

I have a suggestion for you Steven: learn to admit your errors rather than attempting to hide them behind word games.
 
Clark1961 said:
As to being read for departure, I'm at that point in the run-up area after run-up and preflight checks. The 20 or 50 yards to the hold line is not consequential.
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No, you're not ready for departure until you're at the runway. That's just simple logic. You're not going to takeoff from the runup area so the remaining distance to taxi is of consequence.

I have a suggestion for you Steven: learn to admit your errors rather than attempting to hide them behind word games.
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I have no problem admitting an error when I'm in error.
 
If your run-up area is at the departure end of the runway, you're ready for departure even if you're still rolling out of this area the last 50 or 100 feet to the runway.

If your run up area is on a NON-MOVEMENT area, then you are ready to taxi when you are done with your run-up.

Who cares what the A/FD says? If you hear in the ATIS to do it one way, then do it that way...right? If the ATIS is not consistent, then the facility has the issue.

Is this the gist of the debate here, or did I miss something?

--Matt Rogers
 
The rogue said:
If your run-up area is at the departure end of the runway, you're ready for departure even if you're still rolling out of this area the last 50 or 100 feet to the runway.

If your run up area is on a NON-MOVEMENT area, then you are ready to taxi when you are done with your run-up.

Who cares what the A/FD says? If you hear in the ATIS to do it one way, then do it that way...right? If the ATIS is not consistent, then the facility has the issue.

Is this the gist of the debate here, or did I miss something?

--Matt Rogers
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The AFD does not agree with ATIS, and ATIS is not consistent. That is the gist of the thread. But some people are so in love with KAPA procedures it's like arguing with an Apple fanboy.
 
roncachamp said:
No, you're not ready for departure until you're at the runway. That's just simple logic. You're not going to takeoff from the runup area so the remaining distance to taxi is of consequence.



I have no problem admitting an error when I'm in error.
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Steven you're just plain wrong. The taxi distance is of no consequence what-so-ever and that is clear to anyone setting in the run-up area. Sorry but that's the way it is.

If you wish to persist in your fallacy then by all means do so. By all means continue looking for hairs to split and semantics to argue. The rest of us will go flying and drop in occasionally to point out your errors.
 
May I suggest the best response to a Troll is no response.
 
Thread closed for management review.

Folks, a reminder that making it *personal* is against the RoC.
 
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