(Student pilot)Past dui not disclosed. Revocation faa!

[Lindberg]

Timeline: I got a LOI a month ago saying that an investigation has started by an faa attorney. I immediately emailed faa attorney that it was a mistake and gave them all dui case papers and also asked what actions or steps i need to take further as I’m new and didn’t know what to do. Faa attorney said said at that time no actions from my end.


Then i got another letter 3 days ago that said emergency order of revocation.

Outcome: You screwed up. You got caught. You're living the consequences. You can continue to deal with the FAA on your own and take what you get, or you can hire a professional to act on your behalf. It might not get you a better outcome, but it might.

 

[TCABM]

Once he received notice of the emergency revocation, he surrendered them…

Words mean things. Once the FAA revoked the certificates, the certificates could no longer be voluntarily surrendered.

Whether he gave the paper back to the FAA or somebody came and took it doesn’t change the status.

 

[Salty]

Lots of virtue signaling on this thread. Anyone that filled out the Faa form for a medical for the first time when they were over age 30 has "lied". The form is so ridiculously and impossibly all encompassing. Maybe at age 16 you'd be able to do it accurately, after that, the odds become increasingly impossible. Even at 16, odds are you had diagnosis' you never were told about. Odds are even higher that it makes a bit of difference.

That doesn't mean it's ok to intentionally lie, but IMO there is plenty of room to cut slack to a person that did it wrong the first time.

 

[Lindberg]

Words mean things. Once the FAA revoked the certificates, the certificates could no longer be voluntarily surrendered.

I didn't say he "voluntarily surrendered" them. The emergency order requires surrender of the certificates on pain of further penalties.

 

[TCABM]

I didn't say he "voluntarily surrendered" them.

I know you didn’t which is why I specifically asked the OP to clarify what he meant.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Could part of this problem be how people view "paperwork" these days?

I can believe this, especially since there is nothing in school that teaches you that it is important to read the details, and I suspect many parents don't know to explain this to their kids. The younger generations are now accustomed to just scroll-and-click. Maybe the medical application forms need more "Are you sure you have accurately entered your information" warnings.

Regarding the most click-through agreements, my understanding is they are generally enforceable, to the extent reasonable (i.e., they aren't having you responsible for otherwise-unstated fees, or promises to by the CEO of the company a new car), so there isn't much risk for the typical consumer/user in just clicking-through. You have to be smart about it though. It's one thing to click-through on a online newspaper subscription, another to do it on a cell phone contract, and then yet another level of risk to do that on a federal form.

 

[Lindberg]

I know you didn’t which is why I specifically asked the OP to clarify what he meant.

He didn't say he "voluntarily" surrendered them, either. He said he surrendered them, which is what the emergency revocation order required him to do.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This. Hire an attorney experienced in dealing with the FAA. Let him deal with them and get you the shortest suspension possible. Continue your training. Reapply for a medical and tell the truth.

From the post, it wasn't a suspension but a revocation. True, there's not too much difference in the net result for a student pilot but it's a good idea to keep the difference in mind. In a suspension, you have your pilot certificate when the suspension period is over. In a revocation, your pilot certificates are gone and you have to reapply from scratch to re-acquire them. The regulatory waiting period to try again is 1 year but I've seen it negotiated down to 6 months.

 

[GaryM]

Why the CFI? Applicants are not required to visit a CFI prior to completing a MedXpress application or seeing an AME.

True, but I can't think of a better alternative. I don't think many prospective students complete a MedXpress application before their first contact with a CFI, nor would they peruse the Medical Topics thread on this or any other pilot board. CFIs seem like the best means to alert the greatest number of prospective students to the pitfalls.

 

[midlifeflyer]

But where does it say?

The process of surrendering certificates is in various rules and FAA publications. There's also a bit of horse-sense involved:
"Oh crap! I just realized that I accidentally answered 'no' to a question I should have answered 'yes' to. Should I look into taking steps to correct it or should I hope the authorities don't actually check on this and lower the boom." (notice how I didn't even mention the FAA?)

I didn’t know that at all![/quore]
This is how one generally finds out.
"Oh crap! I just realized that I accidentally answered 'no' to a question I should have answered 'yes' to. What should I do? I'd better get some advice on what to do."

 

[midlifeflyer]

He didn't say he "voluntarily" surrendered them, either. He said he surrendered them, which is what the emergency revocation order required him to do.

..and if he didn't he would have probably received a notice of civil penalties be assessed.

 

[TCABM]

True, but I can't think of a better alternative. I don't think many prospective students complete a MedXpress application before their first contact with a CFI, nor would they peruse the Medical Topics thread on this or any other pilot board. CFIs seem like the best means to alert the greatest number of prospective students to the pitfalls.

Honestly, I feel the initial exam should be two parts: AME consult that requires the AME to do applicant education on how and what to include on the form, as well as something along the lines of “If these things apply to you, extra information will be required.”

Only then can the applicant do the form and come back for the exam.

 

[dbahn]

Honestly, I feel the initial exam should be two parts: AME consult that requires the AME to do applicant education on how and what to include on the form, as well as something along the lines of “If these things apply to you, extra information will be required.”

Only then can the applicant do the form and come back for the exam.

Personally, I think the first and possibly most important lesson a CFI can give is a description of how the medical process works, why it's critical for a pilot to understand, and what pitfalls exist that could jeopardize a goal to get a pilot certificate. That lesson can take all of about five minutes to be very effective. An AME consult with the right AME can be an excellent option, but the student needs to know why he needs to pursue that option in the first place.

 

[Matthew]

I cringed when I heard a CFI tell some potential students, "Don't worry about it, if you can fog a mirror you can pass."

 

[TCABM]

Personally, I think the first and possibly most important lesson a CFI can give is a description of how the medical process works, why it's critical for a pilot to understand, and what pitfalls exist that could jeopardize a goal to get a pilot certificate.…

I’d say it’s the first lesson a new student pilot should learn, but I’m much more agnostic who delivers it.

 

[Lindberg]

From the post, it wasn't a suspension but a revocation. True, there's not too much difference in the net result for a student pilot but it's a good idea to keep the difference in mind. In a suspension, you have your pilot certificate when the suspension period is over. In a revocation, your pilot certificates are gone and you have to reapply from scratch to re-acquire them. The regulatory waiting period to try again is 1 year but I've seen it negotiated down to 6 months.

The medical certificate would certainly be revoked. Whether the student pilot certificate is revoked or suspended is really a distinction without a difference. He said revoked for nine months, which either means suspended for nine months or can reapply in nine months.

 

[Lindberg]

I cringed when I heard a CFI tell some potential students, "Don't worry about it, if you can fog a mirror [and are willing to lie,] you can pass."

FTFH

 

[EdFred]

But you're agreeing to this by submitting to a medical certificate. Don't apply for a medical if you don't want to disclose such information.

You could also say the same for hospital visits...let's say I was passed out drunk and my friends took me to the hospital.. so I shouldn't have to report it? Either way, arrests and hospital visits are reportable, but the underlying facts help the FAA determine whether it's a medical certification issue.

Except when you get cops like the one in GA that arrested numerous people for DUI (MJ) when they never used. Said he was "certified" to be able to determine their usage. They all tested negative for use. He got a promotion and officer of the year. Or the assbag in Colorado that arrested a pilot for DUI even after the brethalyzer and blood draw both were 0.0.

Exactly what sort of "behavior" is the FAA cracking down on? Simply living?

 

[Dana]

CFIs seem like the best means to alert the greatest number of prospective students to the pitfalls.

I agree, but the problem is that most CFIs don't know this; they're mostly young, healthy, and were able to answer "no" to all the tricky questions.

 

[Brad Z]

Except when you get cops like the one in GA that arrested numerous people for DUI (MJ) when they never used. Said he was "certified" to be able to determine their usage. They all tested negative for use. He got a promotion and officer of the year. Or the assbag in Colorado that arrested a pilot for DUI even after the brethalyzer and blood draw both were 0.0.

Exactly what sort of "behavior" is the FAA cracking down on? Simply living?

Again, the supporting documentation associated with the arrive should provide context to convince AMCD that the applicant doesn't have a pattern of history with drugs or alcohol.

But to your point, why stop with arrests? Why should we be asking about convictions? Plenty of local yokal judges are more than happy to hand out a guilty verdict with questionable evidence. Should we just not ask the question at all and hope that alcoholics and drug addicts exercise the proper judgement to abstain from flying under the influence?

 

[unsafervguy]

as an added bonus, if you get it back, you now get to check that box that says "have you ever had your medical suspended or revoked?" for the rest of you flying days.

 

[Brad Z]

Why the CFI? Applicants are not required to visit a CFI prior to completing a MedXpress application or seeing an AME.

There aren't too many people familiar with the medical certification process that interact with a potential student before the flight instructor. A simple one-page handout would be enough information to help the potential student make a reasonable decision about how to proceed with medical certification.

 

[Half Fast]

A simple one-page handout would be enough information to help the potential student make a reasonable decision about how to proceed with medical certification.

True. Why doesn’t the FAA make that page #1 of the application form?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

In lieu of my treatise earlier, I would make this simple summary:

"YOUR SIGNATURE MEANS SOMETHING, BE DAMNED CAREFUL WHAT YOU PUT IT ON"

 

[Brad Z]

True. Why doesn’t the FAA make that page #1 of the application form?

You think anyone would read it if they did? I mean, they’ve already published the following:

 

[drummer4468]

In general, online and in life, I try to be as empathetic and understanding as I can. Not trying to personally attack this guy for maybe being a little hurried and overwhelmed by the initial AME hurdles. I think most of us have gotten a little nervous of confused with the administrative tasks involved in becoming pilots. Don't judge someone's worst day by your best, yadayada. And I do agree that there should be better information pathways available to new prospective pilots.

BUT.... I don't buy the whole "paperwork is complicated and ambiguous" excuse in this case. Regardless of whether you read the other literature, the question is very clearly worded next to the Yes/No checkboxes. It wasn't buried in any fine print. I've had more confusing restaurant menus than that.

It's like being questioned by police about something severe like murder or something, being asked "Did you see Mr. Smith at all this past month?"
And answering "No, I haven't"
Then when they quickly find concrete evidence placing you at the scene of the crime and bring you in for interrogation, you email the prosecutor "Ohhhh I'm so sorry, I was actually with him on Tuesday the 3rd, we got into a fight, here's the knIfe I stabbed him with, I'm really sorry i made an honest mistake, how do I change my answer now? A plea deal for 9 months probation is still too much, It's messing up my training, I need it lower"

Mistakes can be forgiven. I'm staunchly against intoxicated driving of any sort, but even I can bring myself to forgive blowing a 0.09 as a mistake, if the person learns their lesson.
It's the part where he undeniably lies to hide it, then tries to frame it as an "oopsiedaisy" when caught, that I cannot abide by.
If you're gonna lie to get yourself into a largely honor-based and integrity-critical field, recieving harsh blowback when asking a pilot forum "how can I appeal these consequences" is pretty justified IMHO. We don't need people in our ranks who demonstrably cannot be reliably honest, then make weak excuses for it.

 

[mandm]

In general, online and in life, I try to be as empathetic and understanding as I can. Not trying to personally attack this guy for maybe being a little hurried and overwhelmed by the initial AME hurdles. I think most of us have gotten a little nervous of confused with the administrative tasks involved in becoming pilots. Don't judge someone's worst day by your best, yadayada. And I do agree that there should be better information pathways available to new prospective pilots.

BUT.... I don't buy the whole "paperwork is complicated and ambiguous" excuse in this case. Regardless of whether you read the other literature, the question is very clearly worded next to the Yes/No checkboxes. It wasn't buried in any fine print. I've had more confusing restaurant menus than that.

It's like being questioned by police about something severe like murder or something, being asked "Did you see Mr. Smith at all this past month?"
And answering "No, I haven't"
Then when they quickly find concrete evidence placing you at the scene of the crime and bring you in for interrogation, you email the prosecutor "Ohhhh I'm so sorry, I was actually with him on Tuesday the 3rd, we got into a fight, here's the knIfe I stabbed him with, I'm really sorry i made an honest mistake, how do I change my answer now? A plea deal for 9 months probation is still too much, It's messing up my training, I need it lower"

Mistakes can be forgiven. I'm staunchly against intoxicated driving of any sort, but even I can bring myself to forgive blowing a 0.09 as a mistake, if the person learns their lesson.
It's the part where he undeniably lies to hide it, then tries to frame it as an "oopsiedaisy" when caught, that I cannot abide by.
If you're gonna lie to get yourself into a largely honor-based and integrity-critical field, recieving harsh blowback when asking a pilot forum "how can I appeal these consequences" is pretty justified IMHO. We don't need people in our ranks who demonstrably cannot be reliably honest, then make weak excuses for it.

Exactly, It’s the same line of decision making to drive after a drink and to hide the omission on the form and further to use an excuse to try to get out of it.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

But where does it say? I didn’t know that at all!

It’s called “Common Sense”, which evidently, sorry to say, you don’t have.

 

[unsafervguy]

Exactly, It’s the same line of decision making to drive after a drink and to hide the omission on the form and further to use an excuse to try to get out of it.

isn't that the lack of decision making skills they are trying to weed out. i guess it worked in this case.

 

[schmookeeg]

time for OP to "honestly" get a boat.

 

[Dry Creek]

Or you keep drinking and take up another hobby, preferably one that tolerates liars. There is no place in aviation for a lack of integrity.

Sounds like a position as a politician is in order. In many cases it pays better than being a career pilot, doesn't it?

 

[Dry Creek]

Anyone that filled out the Faa form for a medical for the first time when they were over age 30 has "lied".

That's an interesting observation. I filled mine out at age 59. What would I have lied about?

 

[Half Fast]

That's an interesting observation. I filled mine out at age 59. What would I have lied about?

Notice that @Salty put the word in quotes.

If you're 59, you almost certainly omitted some diagnosis or treatment or medication from your childhood or adolescence, not out of maliciousness or an intent to deceive, but simply because none of us remember everything and records from 50 years ago, where the physician is likely deceased anyway, are usually impossible to obtain. It's quite possible that you "lied" by omission, or that you stated something inaccurately.

 

[Dry Creek]

Notice that @Salty put the word in quotes.

If you're 59, you almost certainly omitted some diagnosis or treatment or medication from your childhood or adolescence, not out of maliciousness or an intent to deceive, but simply because none of us remember everything and records from 50 years ago, where the physician is likely deceased anyway, are usually impossible to obtain. It's quite possible that you "lied" by omission, or that you stated something inaccurately.

I did my medical at 59, just turned 60 last weekend (and soloed the day before my birthday - best BD gift ever).

Well, for the stuff they were asking, I don't think that could be true. Back when I was younger, they didn't have ADHD, or whatever restless kid syndrome is now called. We never went to the doctor unless something needed sewn up or a cast. I grew up pretty much in poverty. At 17 I went into the Navy, and I have all of my records from six years of active duty. They did a pretty thorough assessment for a kid signed up in the nuclear power program, and they even dug deeper for submarine service.

What usually gets laughs and disbelief from most people is the fact that I've never tried marijuana. I've never taken any illegal drug. There was no need to in our house growing up - alcohol was too easily available. I didn't want to be arrested and put in jail - I was often told how it would ruin the rest of your life - no illicit drugs for me. In Texas, you're not prohibited from drinking as a minor - only being in possession. A parent can give/serve you alcohol, but they must be there and take control of it if they leave the table.

I never had any surgery until I was 55. That's when I had my knee replaced, and it was the very first time I'd ever had general anesthesia. After that things seemed to fail at a quicker rate, gall bladder here, both shoulders being replaced there, cardiac catheter ablation. I dutifully reported each on the form. I had two CACI's and needed to do a 24-hour Holter monitor study, but I laid it all out.

I do clearly remember that I've never been arrested for anything - and especially for anything alcohol or drug related. I have had two traffic tickets in my life though - once for 63 in a 55 (1982) and "careless driving" for doing donuts on a vacant Daytona beach at 3 in the morning (1980).

I really do think that older folks like me are less likely to have ever had an encounter with SSRIs and not remember it. We weren't bombarded with television ads for "happy pills" and being chided to "ask your doctor if our drugs are right for you" while growing up. If you couldn't mind the teacher, the principal had his trusty paddle to help you understand about not being disruptive in class.

I'm not trying to be argumentative about it, but it just seems so foreign to me to not be able to remember having a diagnosis of some psychiatric disorder, or to not remember using an illegal drug, or to have been arrested for anything. Maybe I'm just different.

 

[TCABM]

I did my medical at 59, just turned 60 last weekend (and soloed the day before my birthday - best BD gift ever)...

Congratulations, I know that journey has taken a while.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You think anyone would read it if they did? I mean, they’ve already published the following:

Maybe. Maybe not. But, thinking about it, I kinda like the idea. A 1-page handout can reach us well before we sit down with MedXPress, start filling out the application and get to experience "continuation bias" (aka getthereitis or missionitis) in our excitement to get that certificate.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I did my medical at 59, just turned 60 last weekend (and soloed the day before my birthday - best BD gift ever).

Well, for the stuff they were asking, I don't think that could be true. Back when I was younger, they didn't have ADHD, or whatever restless kid syndrome is now called. We never went to the doctor unless something needed sewn up or a cast. I grew up pretty much in poverty. At 17 I went into the Navy, and I have all of my records from six years of active duty. They did a pretty thorough assessment for a kid signed up in the nuclear power program, and they even dug deeper for submarine service.

What usually gets laughs and disbelief from most people is the fact that I've never tried marijuana. I've never taken any illegal drug. There was no need to in our house growing up - alcohol was too easily available. I didn't want to be arrested and put in jail - I was often told how it would ruin the rest of your life - no illicit drugs for me. In Texas, you're not prohibited from drinking as a minor - only being in possession. A parent can give/serve you alcohol, but they must be there and take control of it if they leave the table.

I never had any surgery until I was 55. That's when I had my knee replaced, and it was the very first time I'd ever had general anesthesia. After that things seemed to fail at a quicker rate, gall bladder here, both shoulders being replaced there, cardiac catheter ablation. I dutifully reported each on the form. I had two CACI's and needed to do a 24-hour Holter monitor study, but I laid it all out.

I do clearly remember that I've never been arrested for anything - and especially for anything alcohol or drug related. I have had two traffic tickets in my life though - once for 63 in a 55 (1982) and "careless driving" for doing donuts on a vacant Daytona beach at 3 in the morning (1980).

I really do think that older folks like me are less likely to have ever had an encounter with SSRIs and not remember it. We weren't bombarded with television ads for "happy pills" and being chided to "ask your doctor if our drugs are right for you" while growing up. If you couldn't mind the teacher, the principal had his trusty paddle to help you understand about not being disruptive in class.

I'm not trying to be argumentative about it, but it just seems so foreign to me to not be able to remember having a diagnosis of some psychiatric disorder, or to not remember using an illegal drug, or to have been arrested for anything. Maybe I'm just different.

Love that story. You did good for a kid

 

[Brad Z]

Maybe. Maybe not. But, thinking about it, I kinda like the idea. A 1-page handout can reach us well before we sit down with MedXPress, start filling out the application and get to experience "continuation bias" (aka getthereitis or missionitis) in our excitement to get that certificate.

Objectively, I think that one page handout would be better served coming from AOPA than the FAA itself. I'm trying to imagine FAA attorneys signing off on something along the lines of "Got bi-polar? Go Sport Pilot!"

 

[sarangan]

Hi,

I’m curious. I recently starting training for my private pilot cert. Like 4 months ago with my 9-5 regular job.

so i applied for my medical and got it on aug 1st week this year. I said no to an arrest. At that time i had practically zero knowledge on aviation and it was mistake because i had a dui 1.5 years ago with 0.092. Nothing happened. I stopped at shoulder trying to get signals for my maps while traveling.

fast forward a month after i got my medical, LOI was sent from faa. I was trying to rectify my mistake but there were no steps anywhere rhat said how can I correct my answer to yes. Like should i call faa? So i told the same to the faa attorney when i got LOI and said sorry and was honest mistake and gave all my dui details case files. Fast forward again Few days ago i got an emergency order of revocation for my student pilot cert & medical.

now I don’t know what to do!! All my training is paused. I tried to communicate with faa attorney saying so many sorries, it’s an honest mistake and tried to take corrective actions as well. But attorney was like i can get 9 months revocation as settlement agreement at most.
I’m so sad.. any suggestions what to do? Appeal can i get less than 9 months like 6 or so??

I’ve been trying to explain to faa attorney that it was honest mistake and even sent out dui case docs, a personal statement about me etc. i barely drink alcohol sometimes i go by months. I’m very outdoorsy, climb mountains etc..

Not trying to chastise you here, but I read your post a couple of times trying to understand the exact sequence of events. The poor grammar and spelling errors don't cast a positive impression. I think you should hire an attorney and let him or her do the talking and writing.

 

[Half Fast]

Objectively, I think that one page handout would be better served coming from AOPA than the FAA itself. I'm trying to imagine FAA attorneys signing off on something along the lines of "Got bi-polar? Go Sport Pilot!"

One step at a time. To quote Henry VI, part 2, act iv, scene 2, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."