(Student pilot)Past dui not disclosed. Revocation faa!

[Apparao]

Hi,

I’m curious. I recently starting training for my private pilot cert. Like 4 months ago with my 9-5 regular job.

so i applied for my medical and got it on aug 1st week this year. I said no to an arrest. At that time i had practically zero knowledge on aviation and it was mistake because i had a dui 1.5 years ago with 0.092. Nothing happened. I stopped at shoulder trying to get signals for my maps while traveling.

fast forward a month after i got my medical, LOI was sent from faa. I was trying to rectify my mistake but there were no steps anywhere rhat said how can I correct my answer to yes. Like should i call faa? So i told the same to the faa attorney when i got LOI and said sorry and was honest mistake and gave all my dui details case files. Fast forward again Few days ago i got an emergency order of revocation for my student pilot cert & medical.

now I don’t know what to do!! All my training is paused. I tried to communicate with faa attorney saying so many sorries, it’s an honest mistake and tried to take corrective actions as well. But attorney was like i can get 9 months revocation as settlement agreement at most.
I’m so sad.. any suggestions what to do? Appeal can i get less than 9 months like 6 or so??

I’ve been trying to explain to faa attorney that it was honest mistake and even sent out dui case docs, a personal statement about me etc. i barely drink alcohol sometimes i go by months. I’m very outdoorsy, climb mountains etc..

 

[Kritchlow]

I’m more sympathetic than most anyone here about drinking/DUI’s, but in all fairness this was not an “honest” mistake.

 

[Apparao]

I’m more sympathetic than most anyone here about drinking/DUI’s, but in all fairness this was not an “honest” mistake.

You may right about me saying “honest” but i can say it was a negligent one. I haven’t even started on my ground properly when i applied for medical. I got under an impression as soon as i saw the question about arrest i was thinking of something more severe like murder or something and i was filling up No fastly. But hmm I really didn’t know what were the corrective actions to take when i asked my ame about this mistake i made

 

[drummer4468]

C'mon. Let's be real here. You didn't make a mistake. You lied on a federal application. This isn't "oops, I conveniently forgot to list a doctor's visit." You chose to falsely answer "no" to an obviously disqualifying question about your history, despite the many warnings that false answers have harsh consequences. I can't even give you the benefit of the doubt that you may have forgotten about an ancient arrest, it was only 1.5 years ago. You then had a month to surrender your cert and issued medical at the nearest FSDO, before getting caught, as a hail mary in hopes for some mercy. But you did not. And of course your relatively recent DUI waved every red flag it could the second the FAA glanced at your arrest/driving record. You may have garnered some sympathy for having a screw-up in your past, we're all human. But lying about it (or anything) to get what you want has no place in the aviation world.

Question 18v: History of (1) any conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any conviction(s) or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.

Nowhere in there does it mention "but only more severe stuff like murder or something"

There are long, expensive pathways to medical issuance for people who've had DUIs and disclosed them. But now that you've been caught red-handed trying to hide it, you'll be lucky to just lose your medical and certificate, and not be criminally charged, jailed, and/or fined. They don't care how little you drink, or that you climb mountains. You demonstrated out of the gate that you not only have a DUI, but that you're prone to lying to cover yourself until you get caught. No amount of sorries will take that black mark off your record.

 

[bflynn]

Best case: Your option is to wait out your 9 month revocation. Quit drinking at all. Then you’ll have to reapply for your medical, which will be deferred by the AME. In another few months, you’ll get instructions from the FAA to be evaluated under the HIMS program, to prove your perpetual sobriety. It will be expensive and frustrating, 14 random urinalysis tests a year, an accredited alcoholics recovery program and periodic meetings with an AME. Over several years you’ll be evaluated and you might get a special issuance at the end of all of it.

Or you keep drinking and take up another hobby, preferably one that tolerates liars. There is no place in aviation for a lack of integrity.

 

[Brad Z]

C'mon. Let's be real here. You didn't make a mistake. You lied on a federal application. This isn't "oops, I conveniently forgot to list a doctor's visit." You chose to falsely answer "no" to an obviously disqualifying question about your history, despite the many warnings that false answers have harsh consequences. I can't even give you the benefit of the doubt that you may have forgotten about an ancient arrest, it was only 1.5 years ago. You then had a month to surrender your cert and issued medical at the nearest FSDO, before getting caught, as a hail mary in hopes for some mercy. But you did not. And of course your relatively recent DUI waved every red flag it could the second the FAA glanced at your arrest/driving record. You may have garnered some sympathy for having a screw-up in your past, we're all human. But lying about it (or anything) to get what you want has no place in the aviation world.

Question 18v: History of (1) any conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any conviction(s) or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.

Nowhere in there does it mention "but only more severe stuff like murder or something"

There are long, expensive pathways to medical issuance for people who've had DUIs and disclosed them. But now that you've been caught red-handed trying to hide it, you'll be lucky to just lose your medical and certificate, and not be criminally charged, jailed, and/or fined. They don't care how little you drink, or that you climb mountains. You demonstrated out of the gate that you not only have a DUI, but that you're prone to lying to cover yourself until you get caught. No amount of sorries will take that black mark off your record.

Looks like you cited the old version of 18v. The current version includes arrests and convictions.

But I agree, it's not as though the OP forgot he got a DUI arrest. The irony is that had he disclosed it and provided the details, it would have likely resulted in a "don't get any more" letter and a medical. Now the OP has a history of a suspension before he's even soloed.

 

[drummer4468]

Looks like you cited the old version of 18v. The current version includes arrests and convictions.

Ah, I thought it seemed a little off from the one I filled out a few months ago. Thanks

 

[Tools]

Hire an attorney. Get the medical straightened out. Might wind up in HIMS, might not.

It’ll likely take long enough that the suspension time associated with certificate action is moot.

Move forward.

 

[dbahn]

I'm in agreement with the statements above, but I wish we had a better information pathway for prospective student pilots before they even apply for a medical certificate. Frankly, I place that burden on the initial CFI since he or she is in the most logical position and should know the importance of the FARs relating to medical certification.

 

[Tools]

Well, that’s what I do now, but frankly, it ain’t quite right.

I close the door of the office, and start asking questions I really don’t have right to know… Basically I tell them if there’s ANY question about answering yes to ANYTHING on medexpress then we gotta talk on more detail first.

I’ve assembled a list of resources to help.

 

[Arnold]

The FAA may be the last remaining place in society where "YOU MUST TELL THE TRUTH. YOU MUST ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH. THERE ARE NO LITTLE WHITE LIES." The FAA is kind of like Jules in Pulp Fiction when you lie to them

Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the
Inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in
The name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of
Darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost
Children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious
Anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know
My name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

 

[SkyChaser]

I'm in agreement with the statements above, but I wish we had a better information pathway for prospective student pilots before they even apply for a medical certificate. Frankly, I place that burden on the initial CFI since he or she is in the most logical position and should know the importance of the FARs relating to medical certification.

I agree, but this one should have been painfully obvious. It listed his exact issue - being arrested for driving under influence - on the form.

To the OP - quit drinking. Entirely. Wait the nine months. Hire a lawyer or not, but read the stuff the FAA sends you and follow the rules. The consequences won't just magically disappear, just like your dui didn't magically disappear when you skipped over reading the form that you signed as having read and filled out as accurately as you could...and quite frankly, I call a big fat BS on your forgetting a DUI arrest. I remember in great detail being pulled over and given a written warning for speeding over two years ago, and although most people probably don't remember that, most of them remember being arrested unless they have been in and out of jail a lot or have dementia. The FAA is harsh, but the skies are even harsher. They don't cotton to people who fudge their numbers, their stories, or their reality. You can't lie your way out because the sky and the ground don't care that you took off when the wind was too strong or the clouds were too low or the plane had five or ten gallons less fuel than you said or you forgot to check the oil when your CFI asked if you did and you don't want to admit to your mistakes.

In aviation, pride literally kills you.

 

[PaulS]

Hmmm, seems like the FAA system worked in the OPs case. OP, you got good answers here. You messed up, you need to go through the process now, sounds like you have a chance if you stop drinking and persevere. Stop lying, especially on important stuff like this. One way or another lies come back to haunt you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You really need to consult with a professional, not SGOTI.

But offhand, without knowing anything of importance about your situation, I would be far more concerned about my ability to get a medical certificate than the pilot certificate revocation period. Those 9 months don't stop your training (so long as it's not solo). You will probably have to jump more hoops to get a new medical even if you start the process now.

In the "not knowing anything of importance about your situation" and "consult with a professional" department, while it's not as common as some worry about, the FAA has been referring some of these to the US Justice Department for criminal prosecution depending on how intentional and how fraudulent and how egregious the FAA feels the misstatement to be,

 

[TCABM]

I got nothing except never speak to an attorney for the government before having your own legal representation secured and present.

 

[6t6]

Reported, you probably would gotten a pass on one DUI with .092.

 

[dans2992]

Notwithstanding the OP’s lying/not lying question, I find it incredibly ridiculous that the FAA holds an “arrest” with no conviction against you.

You can be arrested if a cop is simply in a bad mood. Not exactly “due process”.

For the type of planes someone with a 3rd class medical is likely to fly, I’d say the danger of the individual DRIVING drunk is greater to the public than FLYING drunk. Flying - most likely to just kill yourself or anyone foolish enough to get in the plane with you. Driving? Lots more people to hit out on the roads.

So, then, why is the same criteria not applied to vehicles? Multiple DUIs, passing out at the wheel…. Whatever, you’ll get a drivers license eventually.

I don’t even drink at all, but…. Just seems silly.

 

[SkyChaser]

Notwithstanding the OP’s lying/not lying question, I find it incredibly ridiculous that the FAA holds an “arrest” with no conviction against you.

You can be arrested if a cop is simply in a bad mood. Not exactly “due process”.

For the type of planes someone with a 3rd class medical is likely to fly, I’d say the danger of the individual DRIVING drunk is greater to the public than FLYING drunk. Flying - most likely to just kill yourself or anyone foolish enough to get in the plane with you. Driving? Lots more people to hit out on the roads.

So, then, why is the same criteria not applied to vehicles? Multiple DUIs, passing out at the wheel…. Whatever, you’ll get a drivers license eventually.

I don’t even drink at all, but…. Just seems silly.

I think that multiple DUIs should prevent a driver's license from being issued/cause revocation of said license, especially after three or four. But too many people think of a driver's license as a right, not a privilege, so here we are.

 

[Brad Z]

Notwithstanding the OP’s lying/not lying question, I find it incredibly ridiculous that the FAA holds an “arrest” with no conviction against you.

You can be arrested if a cop is simply in a bad mood. Not exactly “due process”.

For the type of planes someone with a 3rd class medical is likely to fly, I’d say the danger of the individual DRIVING drunk is greater to the public than FLYING drunk. Flying - most likely to just kill yourself or anyone foolish enough to get in the plane with you. Driving? Lots more people to hit out on the roads.

So, then, why is the same criteria not applied to vehicles? Multiple DUIs, passing out at the wheel…. Whatever, you’ll get a drivers license eventually.

I don’t even drink at all, but…. Just seems silly.

This isn't about due process, it's about behavioral profile. Alcoholics tend to drink when the consequences are problematic. Just because a good attorney might plead down a DUI to a lesser charge doesn't mean that there wasn't a behavioral issue. The due process for the FAA is explaining why the charge got thrown out.

The classic example is the DUI for sleeping in your car. An aggressive cop gives a DUI to someone sleeping in their car. The airman sends the arrest report to the FAA and the FAA nods their head and says don't get another DUI. But after three DUI arrests, even without charges, there's clearly something up with the airman. Eventually you stop chalking it up to bad luck and have to ask what sort of behaviors is the airman taking part in that result in these arrests?

As far as flying drunk, pilots--drunk pilots included--have a habit of taking passengers up with them. Enough drunk pilots have crashed and killed that we got to where we are today.

 

[Lindberg]

You really need to consult with a professional, not SGOTI.

This. Hire an attorney experienced in dealing with the FAA. Let him deal with them and get you the shortest suspension possible. Continue your training. Reapply for a medical and tell the truth.

 

[mandm]

Throw money and a lawyer at it, the American way!

 

[TCABM]

This isn't about due process, ….

To a degree though, it is.

The FAA can legally demand you report an arrest and to do so can be penalized. Convictions as well, even though the OP alluded to just an arrest. The FAA even goes to painstaking effort to address expungement. Reading is fundamental. OP was informed of and had the opportunity to disclose at the initial application and chose not too.

The FAA did the trust but verify thing, notified the OP, gave him opportunity to surrender certificates or have them revoked, and OP chose not to do so. Due process was served and OP can appeal to the NTSB if he so desired. That’s almost the exact definition of due process in action.

Were I guessing though, OP knowingly rolled the dice on a reduced charge and/or expunged record.

 

[dans2992]

It just seems like judging someone on an “arrest” with no conviction or plea deal is…. Very totalitarian.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I think that multiple DUIs should prevent a driver's license from being issued/cause revocation of said license, especially after three or four. But too many people think of a driver's license as a right, not a privilege, so here we are.

In my neck of the woods, having a valid driver's license in your wallet prior to driving is an option.

 

[SkyChaser]

It just seems like judging someone on an “arrest” with no conviction or plea deal is…. Very totalitarian.

I think if people weren't allowed to plead out of a conviction of a DUI, the FAA would most likely drop the arrest part (in like eighty years or something), but because so many people "get off" for getting a DUI, and they really don't want drunk pilots flying...they tend to appear very totalitarian.

 

[SkyChaser]

In my neck of the woods, having a valid driver's license in your wallet prior to driving is an option.

Not surprised...that whole "I deserve to drive" thing...who needs the paper from the government? Or tests to show you're actually capable of driving?!

 

[Jeff Oslick]

but I wish we had a better information pathway for prospective student pilots before they even apply for a medical certificate.

I agree with this when it comes to some of the neuro issues, when it comes to DUI, if you can't read the medical application form well enough to accurately answer yes or no, I don't have much hope that you can read and understand the FAR/AIM.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Could part of this problem be how people view "paperwork" these days?

Three times last week I was required to scroll through, and agree to multi-page documents in order to access websites (mostly it was privacy policies). Most people are in a hurry so we just skim them or worse, find the fastest way to "get past this hurdle" and on to the website.

To buy an iphone, they (used to, maybe still do) have a huge agreement you needed to acknowledge just to use the thing. No one ever read it. Part of it included not using them to incite nuclear war.

Does anyone deal with contracts these days? If I'm asked to sign one, most providers of written contracts are shocked that I want to run it past my attorney first - "everyone else just signs them (without such delays as counsel review; often without even reading them!)".

Then we go for our regular Dr. visits and there is a flurry of paperwork to be signed - we all rush through that so as to not lose our place in line. The consequence of a wrong answer is zero.

So when presented with the FAA medical form, which is also in a medical setting, the importance of reading slowly and carefully, absorbing the importance of each question, answering correctly may be a skill we no longer have.

 

[Brad Z]

It just seems like judging someone on an “arrest” with no conviction or plea deal is…. Very totalitarian.

But you're agreeing to this by submitting to a medical certificate. Don't apply for a medical if you don't want to disclose such information.

You could also say the same for hospital visits...let's say I was passed out drunk and my friends took me to the hospital.. so I shouldn't have to report it? Either way, arrests and hospital visits are reportable, but the underlying facts help the FAA determine whether it's a medical certification issue.

 

[Apparao]

I did kind of scroll through the questions quickly and I’m not saying i didn’t do a mistake at all. But when i say “honestly” i mean this. But what i do not understand is a lot of replies said i had a month to surrender my certificates. But i was never asked to surrender my certs up until few days ago and I immediately surrendered them a day from the letter I received. I don’t understand.

 

[SkyChaser]

I did kind of scroll through the questions quickly and I’m not saying i didn’t do a mistake at all. But when i say “honestly” i mean this. But what i do not understand is a lot of replies said i had a month to surrender my certificates. But i was never asked to surrender my certs up until few days ago and I immediately surrendered them a day from the letter I received. I don’t understand.

I'd like to believe that you honestly forgot but how the heck did you read through a question that lists "arrests for driving under the influence" as a prominent part of the question, and not remember that you got arrested for driving under the influence? Was it really not that big of deal to you?

What is the date on your letter?

 

[Brad Z]

Could part of this problem be how people view "paperwork" these days?

Three times last week I was required to scroll through, and agree to multi-page documents in order to access websites (mostly it was privacy policies). Most people are in a hurry so we just skim them or worse, find the fastest way to "get past this hurdle" and on to the website.

To buy an iphone, they (used to, maybe still do) have a huge agreement you needed to acknowledge just to use the thing. No one ever read it. Part of it included not using them to incite nuclear war.

Does anyone deal with contracts these days? If I'm asked to sign one, most providers of written contracts are shocked that I want to run it past my attorney first - "everyone else just signs them (without such delays as counsel review; often without even reading them!)".

Then we go for our regular Dr. visits and there is a flurry of paperwork to be signed - we all rush through that so as to not lose our place in line. The consequence of a wrong answer is zero.

So when presented with the FAA medical form, which is also in a medical setting, the importance of reading slowly and carefully, absorbing the importance of each question, answering correctly may be a skill we no longer have.

You mean like reading through NOTAMs? Sigh.

I think there is some truth to this. I think a lot of new pilots don't understand the ramifications of the document they're completing online. It's really the first test administered by the FAA to test your ability to be conscientious and detail oriented. The solution is for instructors to fully convey to students the importance of properly completing the medical application.

 

[TCABM]

I did kind of scroll through the questions quickly and I’m not saying i didn’t do a mistake at all. But when i say “honestly” i mean this. But what i do not understand is a lot of replies said i had a month to surrender my certificates. But i was never asked to surrender my certs up until few days ago and I immediately surrendered them a day from the letter I received. I don’t understand.

In your OP you stated an LOI was received and then you were subject to an emergency revocation order. Now you are stating you surrendered the certificates.

Which was it?

 

[GaryM]

The solution is for instructors to fully convey to students the importance of properly completing the medical application.

That is so important. While not part of any syllabus (as far as I know) the first lesson should include a discussion of what will be needed to get a third class medical. There are a lot of blockers there there that would never occur to a new student.

It's heartbreaking to read so many accounts here of students who have sunk significant time and money into training, only to find out shortly before their solo that an old DUI, or past/current use of an SSRI or ADHD drug is going to delay or derail their plans.

 

[TCABM]

… The solution is for instructors to fully convey to students the importance of properly completing the medical application.

Why the CFI? Applicants are not required to visit a CFI prior to completing a MedXpress application or seeing an AME.

 

[Lindberg]

In your OP you stated an LOI was received and then you were subject to an emergency revocation order. Now you are stating you surrendered the certificates.

Which was it?

Once he received notice of the emergency revocation, he surrendered then in lieu of the US Marshals coming to take them. Someone else suggested that he could have surrendered them prior to the LOI and revocation as a first step in correcting his "honest mistake."

 

[Lindberg]

I did kind of scroll through the questions quickly and I’m not saying i didn’t do a mistake at all. But when i say “honestly” i mean this. But what i do not understand is a lot of replies said i had a month to surrender my certificates. But i was never asked to surrender my certs up until few days ago and I immediately surrendered them a day from the letter I received. I don’t understand.

You said you didn't know how to fix your error before receiving the LOI. Voluntarily surrending your medical certificate would have been a first step towards doing that. It's irrelevant now.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

You mean like reading through NOTAMs? Sigh.

Can we just start a new thread for that? I'm feeling like a good ***** session.

 

[Apparao]

Timeline: I got a LOI a month ago saying that an investigation has started by an faa attorney. I immediately emailed faa attorney that it was a mistake and gave them all dui case papers and also asked what actions or steps i need to take further as I’m new and didn’t know what to do. Faa attorney said said at that time no actions from my end.


Then i got another letter 3 days ago that said emergency order of revocation.

 

[Apparao]

You said you didn't know how to fix your error before receiving the LOI. Voluntarily surrending your medical certificate would have been a first step towards doing that. It's irrelevant now.

But where does it say? I didn’t know that at all!