Still thinking about an RV-14

Racerx said:
Depending on your hangar. Build a mezzanine. Would there be enough space above the tail to build a mezzanine to store completed parts?
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That or build a rack. With the RV-10 I built a roll-around rack that held the wings, the wingtips (finished, cleco'd in place), the flaps (attached), the ailerons (attached), and the HS, with elevators attached. The whole thing was about 6' wide, 6' tall, and 14(ish) feet long. I left the VS and rudder attached to the fuselage to keep them out of the way. You have to fab a splice plate (10 minute job) to mount the vertical stab without the horizontal in place.

Pic below is without elevators, but you get the idea.
 

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Cross posting this with VAF to see which is the better forum... ;)

So the tail kit is in an ABF trailer that left Portland this morning, and I'm squaring away the last of my tools and workspace. I also finished up my second practice kit, and I keep running into the same issue.

My clecos fall out of my dimpled holes. They are Clecolock brand, purchased new from Spruce. The dimple die also came from Spruce.

I built the first practice kit with a pop-rivet dimple set, and I assumed it was just a bit oversize. Now I have a drdt, pneumatic squeezer, the aforementioned dies, but still have the same issue. I even bought another dimple die set (from Amazon), same issue. The new die set actually fits together a bit tighter, and has a smaller mandrel...it will fit in a 3/32 hole whereas the Spruce set will not.

Tonight I tried drilling, deburring, and dimpling #40, #41, and 3/32 holes with both dies. The clecos still fell out of even the smallest holes. They grab just fine on all undimpled holes.

I've read that some folks have trouble with the cleco brand clecos. Is that the whole issue? What do i look for to ensure I get the properly sized ones? I've been able to use these with washers, but that's not going to be a viable solution for large skins. I assumed that buying the "name brand" would've guaranteed a good product. Sigh.

Is it possible I'm doing something else wrong? I'm deburring both sides lightly with one turn of the standard yellow handled manual swivel debur tool. I don't think i can do it any lighter and still remove all the burs.

Is there a particular dimple die i should try? I haven't tried using the Avery vise-grip plier dimpler yet. Might try that tomorrow.
 
Jim K said:
Cross posting this with VAF to see which is the better forum... ;)

So the tail kit is in an ABF trailer that left Portland this morning, and I'm squaring away the last of my tools and workspace. I also finished up my second practice kit, and I keep running into the same issue.

My clecos fall out of my dimpled holes. They are Clecolock brand, purchased new from Spruce. The dimple die also came from Spruce.

I built the first practice kit with a pop-rivet dimple set, and I assumed it was just a bit oversize. Now I have a drdt, pneumatic squeezer, the aforementioned dies, but still have the same issue. I even bought another dimple die set (from Amazon), same issue. The new die set actually fits together a bit tighter, and has a smaller mandrel...it will fit in a 3/32 hole whereas the Spruce set will not.

Tonight I tried drilling, deburring, and dimpling #40, #41, and 3/32 holes with both dies. The clecos still fell out of even the smallest holes. They grab just fine on all undimpled holes.

I've read that some folks have trouble with the cleco brand clecos. Is that the whole issue? What do i look for to ensure I get the properly sized ones? I've been able to use these with washers, but that's not going to be a viable solution for large skins. I assumed that buying the "name brand" would've guaranteed a good product. Sigh.

Is it possible I'm doing something else wrong? I'm deburring both sides lightly with one turn of the standard yellow handled manual swivel debur tool. I don't think i can do it any lighter and still remove all the burs.

Is there a particular dimple die i should try? I haven't tried using the Avery vise-grip plier dimpler yet. Might try that tomorrow.
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Find a local builder and try a different brand of Clecos. I've never seen or heard of what you're describing.
 
This kind of thing is kinda hard to diagnose over the internet as there’s potentially lots of variables in play. Is there an experienced builder nearby that could come over and take a look at your process?
 
tsts4 said:
This kind of thing is kinda hard to diagnose over the internet as there’s potentially lots of variables in play. Is there an experienced builder nearby that could come over and take a look at your process?
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Yeah, I need to call the club technical counselor. I kind of forgot about that, but with kit delivery imminent, I guess it's time.
 
AV8R_87 said:
In my case it was because I wanted to fly more than I wanted to build.
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Surprised you haven't been tar and feathered for such public blasphemy around the 51% knight templars on here.... :rolleyes: :biggrin:
 
Low quality dimples will seriously enlarge the holes. Are you using quality (expensive) dimple dies?
 
samiamPA said:
Low quality dimples will seriously enlarge the holes. Are you using quality (expensive) dimple dies?
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Well, define quality and expensive. The first set came from Spruce and cost about $45. The second set was $35 on Amazon. I also have the Avery vise-grip dimpler. Don't remember what it cost, but I assume it's quality. Same results with all three.
-
 
Jim K said:
Cross posting this with VAF to see which is the better forum….
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I’m visiting that thread occasionally; those guys don’t know you’re knee deep in a Lycoming right now and it provides some perspective as I read the replies.
 
TCABM said:
I’m visiting that thread occasionally; those guys don’t know you’re knee deep in a Lycoming right now and it provides some perspective as I read the replies.
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Yeah... apparently I should buy quality tools lol.

Might just be because I'm the FNG over there, but it seems like nobody read anything i wrote before responding. That's the thing I hate most about Facebook and BT. I feel like there's less of that here, which is one of the reasons why I like this place.

I did get ahold of the chapter tech. advisor this morning. He answered at his family Christmas party lol. He sounded excited to hear about someone starting a new project, but obviously couldn't talk long. He's going to call back tomorrow and hopefully he'll be able to come take a look.
 
Jim K said:
…Might just be because I'm the FNG over there, but it seems like nobody read anything i wrote before responding...
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I’ve lurked over there for about a decade now and the one thing I’ve learned is if you post a question, the only responses will be by folks who’ve been there and done that already. Some will try to teach an answer, some will answer an entirely different question, some will have some really good technical stuff, and some will lament with you.

But they’ll all assume you’re as dumb/ignorant as they were when they ordered their kit and wished they knew then what they know now.

Me? I’ve got no clue why you’re having the problem you’re having, so I’ll just sit in the corner with my bucket of popcorn and remember I’m not so sure my personality matches the fastidiousness rivets demand.
 
TCABM said:
I’ve lurked over there for about a decade now and the one thing I’ve learned is if you post a question, the only responses will be by folks who’ve been there and done that already. Some will try to teach an answer, some will answer an entirely different question, some will have some really good technical stuff, and some will lament with you.

But they’ll all assume you’re as dumb/ignorant as they were when they ordered their kit and wished they knew then what they know now.

Me? I’ve got no clue why you’re having the problem you’re having, so I’ll just sit in the corner with my bucket of popcorn and remember I’m not so sure my personality matches the fastidiousness rivets demand.
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Don't forget the folks who reply in a model-specific forum with irrelevant information from a different model. But also don't discount the value of a community dominated by people who have been there and done that on similar airframes. POA tends to be a better discussion forum, but VAF usually gets straight to the point because there aren't dozens of posts from people interested in but inexperienced with the subject matter.

As far as the cleco issue, I did have an occasional cleco not stay in the hole, but it was usually individual clecos that were defective. I even got one copper-size but silver-colored cleco just to keep me on my toes. And bigger size holes did get to be more challenging to cleco together, even with the handful of black and gold clecos I picked up. Ask the tech counselor if you can borrow a dimple die and a few clecos so you can try to rule out which side of the equation is causing your issues. And try to cleco the dimpled holes from the other side, just in case that works out better for you.
 
I went over to my friend Dustin's house last night. He's building an RV-7. He has both Clecolock and Kwicklock brand clecos. So his Clecolocks also fell out, and the Kwicklocks caught but were pretty loose. We also figured out that the pieces I was experimenting with were thinner than would normally be put together. I was using the skins from the practice kits. He had some scrap that was about the right thickness to simulate a rib, and the Clecolocks managed to grab that, albeit still pretty loose. A lot like what I was seeing on the practice kit. The Kwicklocks held nicely. On even thicker material, the Clecolocks grabbed fine as well, so it appears the 0-1/4" rating should be more like 1/8-1/4". He didn't know that he had two different brands, but had noticed that the ones with small holes on the working end (the Clecolocks) would occasionally wobble or fall out. When that happened he looked for one with a bigger hole (the Kwicklocks) and replaced it with that. He said it hadn't been a big issue. Looks like he has about a 50/50 mix.

He's at the stage where he's about to put the canopy on. On the -7 it comes in one piece and you have to cut it in half :yikes:. Between that and having to custom bend the longerons, I was glad I was building a -14 instead.

I ordered 100 Kwicklocks and an expensive dimple die from Cleaveland. Hopefully that will be enough to do the thin skinned control surfaces, and the Clecolocks will be fine for heavier wing and fuselage skins. I'll be on the lookout for Kwicklocks and Wedgelocks at Oshkosh.

In other news...My kit arrived in Chicago today! :rockon: Next stop, Bloomington.

Organized the shop last night to free up some shelf/floor space. I have a little more cleaning to do, but I think I'm ready.
 
Racerx said:
If I don't intercept him. ABF you said?
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Actually now that I think about it, maybe you should. They got it from Oregon to Chicago in 3 days, but they just called to confirm the delivery on Tuesday. Next Tuesday. 8 days to get from Chicago to here. Sigh. I'm going to call and ask if I can pick it up if it gets to Bloomington before the weekend. I'm half tempted to drive to Chicago.
 
Jim K said:
Actually now that I think about it, maybe you should. They got it from Oregon to Chicago in 3 days, but they just called to confirm the delivery on Tuesday. Next Tuesday. 8 days to get from Chicago to here. Sigh. I'm going to call and ask if I can pick it up if it gets to Bloomington before the weekend. I'm half tempted to drive to Chicago.
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You are 100% qualified to be an airplane builder. Willing to drive hundreds of miles with a trailer and/or spend hundreds of dollars on expedited shipping to save a couple days on receiving something that will take 6 months to assemble. Welcome to the club, and have a pleasant time in Chicago!
 
Jim K said:
Actually now that I think about it, maybe you should. They got it from Oregon to Chicago in 3 days, but they just called to confirm the delivery on Tuesday. Next Tuesday. 8 days to get from Chicago to here. Sigh. I'm going to call and ask if I can pick it up if it gets to Bloomington before the weekend. I'm half tempted to drive to Chicago.
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If you come a little further north I'll buy you dinner at a friends steakhouse. Truffle fries and all.

www.beelows.com

Lake Zurich Steakhouse & Seafood | Book Reservation!

From Starters, to Burgers, Entree Salads, Serious Steaks, Fresh Fish & Seafood, and Speciality Entrees! Call Beelow's Steakhouse (847) 540-0600.
www.beelows.com www.beelows.com
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, just in case it takes 8 days, maybe you can start by building one of these:
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As I've progressed through various projects, I've become more and more inclined to use an old solid core door laid across a pair of sawhorses. I wouldn't mount an anvil on something like that or try to backrivet on it, but otherwise, it is an inexpensive and very portable work surface.
 
kyleb said:
As I've progressed through various projects, I've become more and more inclined to use an old solid core door laid across a pair of sawhorses. I wouldn't mount an anvil on something like that or try to backrivet on it, but otherwise, it is an inexpensive and very portable work surface.
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Concur. If you’re building worktables only for the build, keep it cheap and simple. I built a more simpler version of the EAA Chapter 1000 tables. Worked just fine.
 
tsts4 said:
Concur. If you’re building worktables only for the build, keep it cheap and simple. I built a more simpler version of the EAA Chapter 1000 tables. Worked just fine.
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The challenge is to build an airplane, not a workshop. My BNL has been salivating over an RV-10 for a while, and I found him a second hand kit in the Atlanta area at a good price. He bought it before Thanksgiving. He's been working on "the shop", which is his airconditioned basement, for 6 weeks now. I was over there on Christmas day and said "Here, take these 3 pieces and build the remaining fuselage bulkhead. Take these two pieces of corrugated aluminum and make the seat backs. Take these metal tubes and make the control pushrods." Obviously, with a second hand kit, he hasn't developed any skills (other than a one day course), but there are *easy* things he could do to move the project forward, rather than fiddling around optimizing "the shop". I worry that he's too intimidated to take the first step...
 
kyleb said:
The challenge is to build an airplane, not a workshop. My BNL has been salivating over an RV-10 for a while, and I found him a second hand kit in the Atlanta area at a good price. He bought it before Thanksgiving. He's been working on "the shop", which is his airconditioned basement, for 6 weeks now. I was over there on Christmas day and said "Here, take these 3 pieces and build the remaining fuselage bulkhead. Take these two pieces of corrugated aluminum and make the seat backs. Take these metal tubes and make the control pushrods." Obviously, with a second hand kit, he hasn't developed any skills (other than a one day course), but there are *easy* things he could do to move the project forward, rather than fiddling around optimizing "the shop". I worry that he's too intimidated to take the first step...
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100%. Funny thing is I’d read ahead in the plans (which I recommend any builder do) and would sometimes fret over upcoming steps. Turns out that steps I thought would be hard inevitably were easy while steps I thought would be a piece of cake turned out to be difficult. Bottom line is you just have to get after it and eat the elephant one bite at a time and not worry about how much effort a particular step is going to take or whether you’ll make mistakes (you will at some point).
 
I volunteered at an Eagles RV12 build for high school kids years ago when I lived in Louisville.

The leader / main builder was impressive. One thing he showed me that they did that helped a lot. When a kit arrives, spend a mind numbing amount of time taking inventory of every nut, screw, plate, etc. Put them in labeled drawers and containers.

Per his wisdom, there will be something missing or over stocked. You don't want to come up short on a flux capacitor or have two turbo encabluators left over and have to determine if you left something out.

And..... that's about all I can contribute .....

EDIT: Have your kids write their names on the inside of the skins with a nice wide sharpie. No one may ever see them again, but your kids will know they are there.
 
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WDD said:
I volunteer at an Eagles RV12 build for high school kids years ago when I lived in Louisville.

The leader / main builder was impressive. One thing he showed me that they did that helped a lot. When a kit arrives, spend a mind numbing amount of time taking inventory of every nut, screw, plate, etc. Put them in labeled drawers and containers.

Per his wisdom, there will be something missing or over stocked. You don't want to come up short on a flux capacitor or have two turbo encabluators left over and have to determine if you left something out.

And..... that's about all I can contribute .....

EDIT: Have your kids write their names on the inside of the skins with a nice wide sharpie. No one may ever see them again, but your kids will know they are there.
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I actually do not bother inventorying common items like AN bolts , nut-plates, rivets and similar items. I have Aircraft Spruce location 10 minutes away and they have all of that and more ( and cost is not a factor either - missing a few AN bolts will cost me a few dollars )
Obviously , do inventory religiously all custom parts …
 
Warmi said:
I actually do not bother inventorying common items like AN bolts , nut-plates, rivets and similar items. I have Aircraft Spruce location 10 minutes away and they have all of that and more ( and cost is not a factor either - missing a few AN bolts will cost me a few dollars )
Obviously , do inventory religiously all custom parts …
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I sort them. The way Van's packages them is insane. Four AN3-4A's in one bag, three in another, seven in some other bag. I put all of my AN3 hardware, sorted by length, in one clear case. Same with AN4, nutplates, and other common hardware. Trying to remember that bag 123 has the exact number of AN3-4A's required to attach the rudder is a lot to keep up with when a sub-kit may have 50 associated brown paper bags of assorted hardware. A couple of hours sorting each sub-kit is a time saver over the long haul. It lets you see that your supply of AN3-4A's is nearing exhaustion.
 
kyleb said:
I sort them. The way Van's packages them is insane. Four AN3-4A's in one bag, three in another, seven in some other bag. I put all of my AN3 hardware, sorted by length, in one clear case. Same with AN4, nutplates, and other common hardware. Trying to remember that bag 123 has the exact number of AN3-4A's required to attach the rudder is a lot to keep up with when a sub-kit may have 50 associated brown paper bags of assorted hardware. A couple of hours sorting each sub-kit is a time saver over the long haul. It lets you see that your supply of AN3-4A's is nearing exhaustion.
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Yes, I do the same, sorting and storing them by type etc but I do not count them.

Btw.. I am building this plane - https://www.flyinglegendusa.com/ and various kits come with custom parts from Italy followed by a box from Aircraft Spruce containing all the hardware that the factory ordered for me , having AS directly ship it to me.
 
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According to their tracking site, my crate left Chicago enroute to Bloomington this morning. The office was closed today (but the trucks were running? weird...), but I'm going to call in the morning and see if there's any chance of picking it up before the weekend.

Did some more organizing today, and I think I'm ready to start. I built 2- 2'x6' tables with MDF tops. The rest was all reclaimed wood I had laying around. I put the remaining MDF on the better of my two pallet based tables. Mounted the DRDT to the end of one table such that the bottom die holder is flush with the table tops, so I can sandwich it between the two tables for big skins. I'm sure a lot of this will change over the next couple years. Looking at these pictures I think I'm going to go back out and sweep the floor...


IMG_20250101_151455500.jpgIMG_20241231_162646587.jpgIMG_20241231_162622364.jpg

kyleb said:
I sort them. The way Van's packages them is insane. Four AN3-4A's in one bag, three in another, seven in some other bag. I put all of my AN3 hardware, sorted by length, in one clear case. Same with AN4, nutplates, and other common hardware. Trying to remember that bag 123 has the exact number of AN3-4A's required to attach the rudder is a lot to keep up with when a sub-kit may have 50 associated brown paper bags of assorted hardware. A couple of hours sorting each sub-kit is a time saver over the long haul. It lets you see that your supply of AN3-4A's is nearing exhaustion.
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Warmi said:
Yes, I do the same, sorting and storing them by type etc but I do not count them.

Btw.. I am building this plane - https://www.flyinglegendusa.com/ and various kits come with custom parts from Italy followed by a box from Aircraft Spruce containing all the hardware that the factory ordered for me , having AS directly ship it to me.
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I've been debating this question. I've heard others say that they like to have the hardware for each step in its own bag, so they like the way Van's does it.
 
Jim K said:
I've been debating this question. I've heard others say that they like to have the hardware for each step in its own bag, so they like the way Van's does it.
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The bags in the RV-10 and -6 kits were not referenced in the plans. They would have worked OK if the plans said "In bag 1234 you will find the hardware for this assembly." They didn't. So what you had was 7 different bags with AN3-5A's in 'em. How were you supposed to know which bag Van's intended you to use for this step? Alternately, since the parts were in sealed brown bags, if you were looking for AN3-5A's, you'd have to cross reference the bag inventory list to determine which bag held some of the magic bolts. Complete waste of time. This was true for both my -6 and my -10. So I sorted everything.

If the -14 plans tell you "Open bag 215, grab the bolts, nuts, and washers...", there's no reason to unbag the stuff.
 
What I did was place the bags from each subkit (eg tailcone, wings, etc) numerically in sequence in those cardboard trays that cases of soft drinks come in. I kept the inventory sheets for that set of hardware with it's associated tray. When a step called for a specific part/fastener I'd just look at the inventory sheet and locate the appropriate bag. Low tech, slow, and cheap, but got the job done.

I did inventory everything, even common items, as I wanted to know if I was short of anything. Finding out you're missing something when you arrive at a step would have been very frustrating, especially for those of us reliant on mail order for just about everything. To mitigate that and the fact that for everything except rivets Van's only sends exactly what you need, I built up a bench stock of common bolts, washers (flat, locking, tinnerman, and nylon), nuts (nyloc and metal lock), nut plates, screws, adel clamps, grommets, pulled rivets, oops rivets (3/32 head on a 1/8 shank), and cotter pins plus other odds and ends. I also bought a wring kit with lots of 20 and 22 GA wiring (plus some other gauges), heatshrink, and AMP Fast-on connectors. Plus you'll want that stuff once your project is complete and you transition to maintaining vs building.
 
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kyleb said:
The bags in the RV-10 and -6 kits were not referenced in the plans. They would have worked OK if the plans said "In bag 1234 you will find the hardware for this assembly." They didn't. So what you had was 7 different bags with AN3-5A's in 'em. How were you supposed to know which bag Van's intended you to use for this step? Alternately, since the parts were in sealed brown bags, if you were looking for AN3-5A's, you'd have to cross reference the bag inventory list to determine which bag held some of the magic bolts. Complete waste of time. This was true for both my -6 and my -10. So I sorted everything.

If the -14 plans tell you "Open bag 215, grab the bolts, nuts, and washers...", there's no reason to unbag the stuff.
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Yes - that is what I seem to remember about that RV 12 build.
 
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