Still thinking about an RV-14

[TCABM]

Anyone remember these days from iamtheari’s original 2017 post… long gone..

What does the RV-14 do that the RV-7 doesn't, other than cost more to gain a little bit of cabin space?

The dollar figures are:
RV-7 kit: $23,680
XIO-360 (180hp): $28,700
Hartzell prop: $7,775

RV-14 kit: $33,800
XIO-390 (210hp): $33,800
Propeller? assume same: $7,775

So the basic airframe and powerplant are $60,155 for the RV-7 and $75,375 for the RV-14. That seems like quite a price bump for unspecified gains.

I get the rhetorical aspect, but power plant cost is a red herring. The $10k in kit costs buys you quicker and easier assembly, 2’ of wing span, and 8 gals of gas. You theoretically complete the kit faster while gaining an hour of range on every sortie.

 

[Skyrys62]

Anyone remember these days from iamtheari’s original 2017 post… long gone..

What does the RV-14 do that the RV-7 doesn't, other than cost more to gain a little bit of cabin space?

The dollar figures are:
RV-7 kit: $23,680
XIO-360 (180hp): $28,700
Hartzell prop: $7,775

RV-14 kit: $33,800
XIO-390 (210hp): $33,800
Propeller? assume same: $7,775

So the basic airframe and powerplant are $60,155 for the RV-7 and $75,375 for the RV-14. That seems like quite a price bump for unspecified gains.

The lure for me was the higher useful load, supposedly better kit builds (not referencing the quick build kits here) but I believe they had more CNC involvement which meant better/easier/quicker builds.
From a not so good memory:
Also the fiberglass work was refined/reduced.
Luggage area was larger.
50gal fuel vs. 42gal
I thought I read that the landing/nose gear was a little better.
ETA:
A little higher wing loading. Not a game changer, but better for bumps and maybe IFR/stability. (arguable)

I probably would have voted for a slider vs tip-up but that isn't an option. I guess you could do your own, but that would entail more than just the work regarding getting it signed off on for airworthiness.

 

[Racerx]

If you guys were trying to talk me out of a 14, you're doing a **** job.

Jim, why a 14 and not a 10? Or a 15? What would be your mission? I ask as I'm internally making the case for each one myself.

The 14 because I don't really need 4 seats, but light acro sounds fun. The 10 because it doesn't sound like that much more work or expense in the macro. Plus I've always seen a 4 seater as a 2 seater with baggage space. The 15 because bush tires look cool.

 

[iamtheari]

Anyone remember these days from iamtheari’s original 2017 post… long gone..

What does the RV-14 do that the RV-7 doesn't, other than cost more to gain a little bit of cabin space?

The dollar figures are:
RV-7 kit: $23,680
XIO-360 (180hp): $28,700
Hartzell prop: $7,775

RV-14 kit: $33,800
XIO-390 (210hp): $33,800
Propeller? assume same: $7,775

So the basic airframe and powerplant are $60,155 for the RV-7 and $75,375 for the RV-14. That seems like quite a price bump for unspecified gains.

You don’t even want me to talk about lead times. Suffice it to say that my January 2018 empennage kit order was delivered to me faster than any of my Amazon Prime orders in the past two years have been.

 

[Skyrys62]

I like the 15 too, thinking it would be a fun and useful plane.
I'm guessing a 10 for Jim would lose seats/useful load, while still incurring higher engine rebuild cost.
However, if he's going to make 3 trips to Oshkosh every year anyway, 4 seats might be plenty, and definitely faster

 

[Jim K]

In today's money,
RV14
Kits $61,300
New engine $55-60k

RV7
Kits: $46,250
Engine $45-60k

So an additional 15-25k depending on what you want. As a 6'4", 275 North American male, I'll take every mm i can get. Also remember that I'm acclimated to a pa32. I sat in the -14a at osh, and it felt good, but i wouldn't want it to be much smaller.

Jim, why a 14 and not a 10? Or a 15? What would be your mission? I ask as I'm internally making the case for each one myself.

The 14 because I don't really need 4 seats, but light acro sounds fun

That. I would envision keeping the lance for heavy hauling/ family truckster type missions. The -14 would be a little more efficient for solo trips and the occasional roll.

A -10 doesn't do anything the lance doesn't already do better except maybe be a tiny bit faster. I'm not into the -15/stol/ backcountry/ flat-brimmed trucker hat scene. Maybe if i lived out west where there actually is real backcountry. The lance has gone everywhere I've wanted to go, and a -14 can supposedly takeoff on under 400' at max gross even with the little engine. I'd consider a -8, but I don't think Teresa would like the tandem seating.

 

[GaryM]

What does the RV-14 do that the RV-7 doesn't, other than cost more to gain a little bit of cabin space?

This one goes to 14

 

[kyleb]

The lure for me was the higher useful load, supposedly better kit builds (not referencing the quick build kits here) but I believe they had more CNC involvement which meant better/easier/quicker builds.
From a not so good memory:
Also the fiberglass work was refined/reduced.
Luggage area was larger.
50gal fuel vs. 42gal
I thought I read that the landing/nose gear was a little better.
ETA:
A little higher wing loading. Not a game changer, but better for bumps and maybe IFR/stability. (arguable)

I probably would have voted for a slider vs tip-up but that isn't an option. I guess you could do your own, but that would entail more than just the work regarding getting it signed off on for airworthiness.

There's no real difference in the fiberglass. You can get the reengineered nosegear for all of the side by side models. But the -14 (and -10) kits are prepunched in such a way (dunno how) that they don't need the holes deburred (supposedly). Beyond that, I don't see a huge difference in the build process between a -7 (or 9) and a -14. The -10 is a different animal, even after the two additional cylinders. The canopy on a -14, -6, 7, or 9 is a hundred hour task. The cabin top and doors on the -10? 300-500 hours wouldn't surprise me...

The -10 is an amazing airplane. Simple, fast, comfortable, hauls a big load.

 

[Dave Theisen]

I would envision keeping the lance for heavy hauling/ family truckster type missions. The -14 would be a little more efficient for solo trips and the occasional roll.

Ah, so instead of buying a PC-12, you’re building a second airplane. . Is Teresa getting her license or are making the oldest get theirs?

 

[moparrob66]

Im drawn towards the BD-4....should go together faster than a Vans kit, and plenty fast with a smaller engine. Not as pretty, but close enough.

 

[Jim K]

Ah, so instead of buying a PC-12, you’re building a second airplane. . Is Teresa getting her license or are making the oldest get theirs?

I figure if I start now, i might have it done by the time the 6yo is ready to solo.

 

[Racerx]

I figure if I start now, i might have it done by the time the 6yo is ready to solo.

Put those small hands to use and hold the bucking bar.

 

[Jim K]

Practice kit showed up a couple days ago, but the tools they tell you you'll need on the website don't match those on the instructions, so I'm waiting on some more stuff. One task I CAN do is build the back riveting plate, which is just a small steel plate, but includes a hole for dimpling up close to ribs. I decided I should use a drill press to make sure that hole was square, so I got that set up:



Missed this old girl. Haven't had it set up since we moved, and it was making me really sad seeing it in the corner getting dusty. It'll be nice to have it usable again.

I've been watching every RV build video I can find. Dropping subtle hints around the house like, "I'm going to build an airplane". Teresa has not said "no" yet, so that's a good sign. In fact today I got an "I know", so I think that means it's safe to order the kit.

 

[Racerx]

Practice kit showed up a couple days ago, but the tools they tell you you'll need on the website don't match those on the instructions, so I'm waiting on some more stuff. One task I CAN do is build the back riveting plate, which is just a small steel plate, but includes a hole for dimpling up close to ribs. I decided I should use a drill press to make sure that hole was square, so I got that set up:

View attachment 135411

Missed this old girl. Haven't had it set up since we moved, and it was making me really sad seeing it in the corner getting dusty. It'll be nice to have it usable again.

I've been watching every RV build video I can find. Dropping subtle hints around the house like, "I'm going to build an airplane". Teresa has not said "no" yet, so that's a good sign. In fact today I got an "I know", so I think that means it's safe to order the kit.

Love my the Bridgeport series II I've got in the shop. Won't let anyone else touch it. Doesnt get run that often though.

I don't think you're being very subtle. But congrats on having an awesome wife.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Practice kit showed up a couple days ago, but the tools they tell you you'll need on the website don't match those on the instructions, so I'm waiting on some more stuff. One task I CAN do is build the back riveting plate, which is just a small steel plate, but includes a hole for dimpling up close to ribs. I decided I should use a drill press to make sure that hole was square, so I got that set up:

View attachment 135411

Missed this old girl. Haven't had it set up since we moved, and it was making me really sad seeing it in the corner getting dusty. It'll be nice to have it usable again.

I've been watching every RV build video I can find. Dropping subtle hints around the house like, "I'm going to build an airplane". Teresa has not said "no" yet, so that's a good sign. In fact today I got an "I know", so I think that means it's safe to order the kit.

“Do whatever you want to do” is a trap!

 

[TCABM]

Practice kit showed up a couple days ago, but the tools they tell you you'll need on the website don't match those on the instructions, so I'm waiting on some more stuff...

So what all is really needed?

 

[Jim K]

So what all is really needed?

 

[kyleb]

View attachment 135436

The real skill you need to learn (IMO) is how to operate a rivet gun and bucking bar. Everything else (at this point) is dead-nuts simple. Riveting with a gun and bucking bar is a hand/eye/feel/coordination skill that takes time to develop. Kind of like welding. If you wanna practice for the real kit, buy some aluminum and practice by drilling holes, deburring, dimpling some of the holes, leaving some undimpled and driving a mix of 1/8 and 3/32 rivets (both flush and button head). Do 20 of 'em 3-5 nights/wk for a month, drive them in unusual positions, drive some by braille, practice with the gun in the left hand for some, the right hand for others, same with the bucking bar(s). Practicing now will eliminate a ton of frustration as you work on the empennage kit.

 

[nauga]

Also not a bad idea to practice with someone else bucking and you driving, and vice-versa.

Nauga,
whose gouge may be dated

 

[Jim K]

The real skill you need to learn (IMO) is how to operate a rivet gun and bucking bar. Everything else (at this point) is dead-nuts simple. Riveting with a gun and bucking bar is a hand/eye/feel/coordination skill that takes time to develop. Kind of like welding. If you wanna practice for the real kit, buy some aluminum and practice by drilling holes, deburring, dimpling some of the holes, leaving some undimpled and driving a mix of 1/8 and 3/32 rivets (both flush and button head). Do 20 of 'em 3-5 nights/wk for a month, drive them in unusual positions, drive some by braille, practice with the gun in the left hand for some, the right hand for others, same with the bucking bar(s). Practicing now will eliminate a ton of frustration as you work on the empennage kit.

The practice kit seems to be pretty well thought out to force you to drive some with the gun, some bucked, some back riveted, different sizes, round heads, flush, even a few blind rivets. The first project is just 3 sheets of aluminum and an angle, with instructions to layout and drill all the holes, match drill, & rivet. Second one is building a small section of control surface, so there's back riveting of skins and working by feel inside the part. Plan to work through both kits, then drill out the rivets and do it again. If I'm still having fun, I might order the empennage kit.

I did do some more reading about the bankruptcy today. Some mentioned not being willing to buy kits one at a time any more in case the company goes under. Seems to me that they're over the hump and are going to come out in one piece. Even if not, surely the IP would live on? I mean, you can still buy parts from Mooney.... Am I being naive? I could afford this if I string it out over a few years, but buying all 4 kits at once just doesn't work right now.

 

[kyleb]

I did do some more reading about the bankruptcy today. Some mentioned not being willing to buy kits one at a time any more in case the company goes under. Seems to me that they're over the hump and are going to come out in one piece. Even if not, surely the IP would live on? I mean, you can still buy parts from Mooney.... Am I being naive? I could afford this if I string it out over a few years, but buying all 4 kits at once just doesn't work right now.

Van's hasn't released an update on the bankruptcy in several months. I'd appreciate an update...

One thing I have heard (unconfirmed as far as I can tell) is that Van's is pulling back some of its transition training aircraft from the field. If that is true (as opposed to "We took it away from Bob, but are looking for a replacement check pilot in the Midwest."), I don't like it. Having several transition training pilots around the country was a real asset for Van's customers. If that is going away, well, it could be a sign of other problems...

 

[Jim K]

Drove my first ever solid rivets this evening. Fun & easy, although admittedly with the part stood up in the vise with easy access to both sides. Little gap between the sheet and the angle, which i think means I didn't countersink the angle enough.

 

[iamtheari]

Little gap between the sheet and the angle, which i think means I didn't countersink the angle enough.

It can also mean that you didn't have the pressure right on the bucking bar, gun, or air hose. Or debris between the parts. Some of the kit instructions are "drill and cleco a whole bunch of holes, but uncleco and re-cleco the entire assembly every few holes to clean out debris." You get to discover every single way to screw up a rivet while you're building. That's part of the fun.

 

[Racerx]

Drove my first ever solid rivets this evening. Fun & easy

Will you say that after 24,000 though?

 

[tsts4]

There’s a number of tips when it comes to riveting. I had a little chart for gun pressures depending on rivet sizes (-3 [3/32] or -4 [1/8] and length); it also depends what type of gun you have: 2X vs 3X. I don’t know what tools you have but a swivel flush set will help prevent dings with the flush rivets (426s) and adding a couple of pierces of masking tape on the cup of the universal sets for the universal rivets (470s) will help prevent smilies. However, keeping the set as perpendicular as possible to the manufactured head and using the right pressure is the best way to prevent damage to the material but it’s gonna happen at some point so don’t obsess over it. On the shop side of the rivet, a tungsten bucking bar is highly recommended as it’s super easy to control and produces great results. That said my preference is to squeeze all rivets (with a pneumatic squeezer preferably but if it’s only a few rivets then the Cleaveland Tool “Main Squeeze” manual squeezer) that I can and only shoot and buck those that can’t be set any other way. My final bit of advice is when you reach the point that you need a riveting partner, in my experience it’s easier to teach a rookie how to shoot vs buck.

PS-you’ve got a ton of dimpling in your future. I suggest investing in a DRDT-2 dimpler,

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've been watching every RV build video I can find. Dropping subtle hints around the house like, "I'm going to build an airplane". Teresa has not said "no" yet, so that's a good sign. In fact today I got an "I know", so I think that means it's safe to order the kit.

Sounds like resignation. Do you need to get her to exhibit the rest of the hazardous attitudes first?

“Do whatever you want to do” is a trap!

 

[CJones]

So an additional 15-25k depending on what you want. As a 6'4", 275 North American male, I'll take every mm i can get. Also remember that I'm acclimated to a pa32. I sat in the -14a at osh, and it felt good, but i wouldn't want it to be much smaller.

After a few hundred hours of -7A time as a 6'7" 200# relatively broad-shouldered North American male, I can tell you that EVERY inch of cabin width matters. I sat in the -14 at OSH a few years ago and it immediately felt wider than the -7A. My dad (6'5" 240) and I BARELY fit in the -7A together - I wouldn't want to be that 'cozy' with a non-family member. Even my wife and I were pretty cozy when flying in Iowa in the winter with heavy sweatshirts on.

 

[iamtheari]

PS-you’ve got a ton of dimpling in your future. I suggest investing in a DRDT-2 dimpler,

That's one of the best tools I got. Pneumatic squeezer is another worthy upgrade.

 

[Racerx]

That's one of the best tools I got. Pneumatic squeezer is another worthy upgrade.

Since I'm putting together a Christmas list... Any other tools you got or wish you had?

 

[nauga]

Since I'm putting together a Christmas list... Any other tools you got or wish you had?

For me some of the most valuable tools were the one-offs I made along the way. Special ground and polished bucking bars, spacers and jigs, strap dupes, and a set of rulers with different rivet spacings marked on them, special ground or turned dimple dies, etc. Also a lot of drills, countersinks, and files of unusual shapes and lengths and from surplus stores too. A lot of these aren't of much use on a pre-drilled kit, but I still find uses for them. The best rivet gun I could afford and an Avery bench dimpler (sort of like a manual DRDT-2) were sound investments too (no pun intended). I cheaped out on a lot of the rest and don't regret it a bit.

Nauga,
outfitted

 

[TCABM]

Something I just realized while replacing the fuel sender on my Ducati. I probably have the skills necessary, but I lack patience working with my hands in tight spaces and blind spaces.

I either need to gain patience with those conditions or I probably am nit a good candidate to build.

 

[iamtheari]

From nauga’s post, I should mention the best tool I made. Just a piece of scrap aluminum with a hole to fit a washer, so I could get it into the unreachable spaces.

For store bought tools, here are a few that come to mind:

1. Upgraded drill. I wish I had splurged on that. Mine was fine but I didn’t realize how much more control a better one would offer.

2. Pneumatic rivet puller. Only once did I wish I had one, but on that occasion I really, really wanted one. (Baggage floor and sidewalls.)

3. 120-degree dimple dies and countersinks for 3/32 holes. There are a few places in the RV-14 that use 120-degree flush rivets. Many people just make 100-degree countersinks and dimples, but you aren’t one of those people.

4. Tight fit drill. It came in handy a few times along the way.

5. Upgraded back rivet set. My toolkit came with an okay one but the better one I got was worth it.

6. Shelves to organize airplane parts with some kind of organization.

7. System to organize rivets, bolts, washers, nuts, etc. And share what you come up with since mine ended up being a disappointment. One main thing to keep in mind is that you will want to keep these small bits organized and out of the way in the long term, but close at hand when you are contorted into the airplane. And you have to keep them separate. It’s tedious to sort out AN426AD3-3.5 and AN426AD3-4 rivets or thick and thin washers when they get mixed together.

 

[nauga]

7. System to organize rivets, bolts, washers, nuts, etc. And share what you come up with since mine ended up being a disappointment. One main thing to keep in mind is that you will want to keep these small bits organized and out of the way in the long term, but close at hand when you are contorted into the airplane. And you have to keep them separate. It’s tedious to sort out AN426AD3-3.5 and AN426AD3-4 rivets or thick and thin washers when they get mixed together.

This * 10E6

Nauga,
whose magnitude is ordered

 

[nauga]

...but close at hand when you are contorted into the airplane.

Excuse this interruption to tell a story. Mounting the horizontal tail on the RV-4 is a PITA and would be much easier with a second elbow or wrist on each arm and eyeballs in your fingertips. In the push to get ready for inspection and first flight I was working late nights in my (rented) hangar a ways away from home. I was trying to get the most forward nuts on the HT brackets which requires threading one's arm through two lightening holes offset by 90 deg and then reaching up to thread the nut. I found it got a lot easier once I pushed my elbow through the horizontal hole under the stab mount. Thankfully I didn't drop a(nother) nut as I poked blindly to find the matching bolt, and eventually got it threaded. I pulled my arm back to get the wrench to tighten it and *bump* the lightening hole edges hit somewhere above my elbow. No amount of twisting, turning, and cussing got my elbow to the hole. It was right about now that I thought of my cellphone, which was conveniently placed about 2ft out of reach. ****. I finally wormed my way out with a pretty good scrape on my arm and a whole new vocabulary.

Nauga,
fused

 

[Racerx]

7. System to organize rivets, bolts, washers, nuts, etc. And share what you come up with since mine ended up being a disappointment. One main thing to keep in mind is that you will want to keep these small bits organized and out of the way in the long term, but close at hand when you are contorted into the airplane. And you have to keep them separate. It’s tedious to sort out AN426AD3-3.5 and AN426AD3-4 rivets or thick and thin washers when they get mixed together.

My a&p has a wall of the plastic slide out drawers with the part number on the drawers and a sample hot glued to the outside.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

“Do whatever you want to do” is a trap!

 

[tsts4]

So I’ve posted about a tungsten bucking bar. Some other thoughts to add to what others have posted in no particular order:
- additional 3/32 (silver) clecos
- side grip clecos
- band saw (a bench top model will work just fine)
- metal files of various sizes and shapes (flat, round, etc)
- shop vac (if you don’t have one already)
- air compressor (25 gallon min if you are going to run a pneumatic drill. I prefer the belt driven oiled models to the oiless variety as they are much quieter)
- extra #30 and #40 jobber drill bits
- torque wrench
- telescoping pick-up magnet
- adjustable inspection mirror
- bench top grinder
- 3M cut and polish wheel (6” for the grinder”)
- box of scotchbrite pads (maroon color general purpose)
- variety of clamps (ratcheting, spring, and C)
- spring loaded punch
- extra CSK microstops (so you can set and leave them for various rivet and screw sizes)

For any electrical work:
- ratcheting crimper
- 4-way indent crimper
- automatic wire stripper
- flush cutting pliers
- heat shrink tubing kit
- heat gun
- quality fast-on connector kit (ie AMP brand)
- multimeter

 

[nauga]

For any electrical work:

You can have my heat-shrink labeler when you pry my cold, dead fingers from the keypad.

Nauga,
wired

 

[iamtheari]

So I’ve posted about a tungsten bucking bar. Some other thoughts to add to what others have posted in no particular order:

Everything here. Also some black and gold clecos. A half dozen of each is probably enough for the RV-14.

You will probably need a new torque wrench. Mine were all off-scale low for the AN3 torque specs that were an everyday occurrence on the plane. I also bought a new air compressor to lower the noise level.

I primed everything with Stewart Systems because it’s nontoxic and I was building in the same space I live in. I went through multiple paint guns and numerous boxes of red 3M pads. I might skip priming if I built again.

 

[Jim K]

This practice kit has been humbling. I've made a bunch of mistakes and drilled out a bunch of rivets. I think if had a more complete tool set, particularly the aforementioned swivel flush set, it would look a lot better. I also didn't have a squeezer, so I drove everything with the gun, which is good practice, I suppose. I still don't have it done, but I'm down to riveting the trailing edge and rolling the leading edge.

It looks like it's been through a war. I think if I had a fresh one to do again, I could make it look nice, but it's making me nervous about spending a bunch of money on a kit. One little slip of the gun makes a helluva dent.

Been thinking about taking the EAA Sportair workshop, but I'm not sure I'd be learning anything. It's be nice to have an experienced teacher look over my work though. Anyone attended their sheetmetal class?