So, Is Busting Class "B" Airspace Really That Big Of A Deal?

Kritchlow said:
Personally I never understood the "no harm, no foul" school of thought. Not just about aviation, but anything in life. I certainly am not a fan of giving violations all over the place, so I'm not really sure I have the solution.
My point is, two pilots could do the exact same thing but only one causes a disruption. He didn't know he was going to cause a disruption, and the guy who didn't cause one didn't know he wouldn't. I don't see why there's a difference. If I drive 80 through a school zone without mowing down any kids I doubt a cop would say "no harm, no foul".

I'm not in anyway trying to put down the OP or other viewpoints, it's just a concept I've never understood.
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I understand what you are saying, and I tend to agree with you. In this case I have beat myself up more than the FAA cared to. When I called and confessed the guy I talked to was not happy about it, but understood I knew I screwed up and took appropriate immediate action. In this case there was a " foul" in that I beat myself up and posted it here so others could use this incident as a learning tool at my expense.

Does that make sense?
 
jesse said:
This is one reason I *really* like to be on an instrument flight plan on much of any cross country if the airplane is equipped. They won't clear you through anything you shouldn't fly through, TFR(s) included. It's their job to keep you out of places they don't want you to be.
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I agree with this 110%. To me, that alone is worth any inconveniences associated with an IFR flight plan.
 
Kritchlow said:
Personally I never understood the "no harm, no foul" school of thought. Not just about aviation, but anything in life. I certainly am not a fan of giving violations all over the place, so I'm not really sure I have the solution.
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You would have loved Soviet Russia, or N Korea. They are the perfect examples of total management of social order and justice.

In the US, we don't have enough prison cells to work on absolutism. Also, the scales of justice will always be determined by the citizens. Taken my example, the controller could have violated me, and an administrative adjudication would take place, where I would disagree with the state that 'climb and maintain 4500' instruction while directly under the shelf was a clearance into the B. Suppose my climb rate is greater than the angle needed to penetrate the floor of the shelf? which it was. ATC did NOT in this case instruct to 'maintain clear of class b airspace'. He just said climb and maintain.

Did I commit a violation? Well, after we get a clear yes from the FAA, we can and I would take it to a real court, not a kangaroo court and have 12 good citizens hear the complaint, and my defense and then all 12 of them have to decide the same way if I committed a violation when directed by ATC. BTW, as a fellow pilot, you won't get a vote because you will be bounced off the jury for cause. Nor will there be any ATC guys, nor FAA guys, not even a FBO ramp worker on the jury. Just 12 less than average folks, being asked if a pilot hearing 'climb and maintain 4500' while directly under a shelf of 4000' is a clearance to continue the climb into that airspace. Again, it doesn't matter what you, or I, or the FAA think, it's now up to 12 people off the street, and it has to be unanimous for the state. Pretty sure I would take those odds.

I find as I get older, I'm a lot less impressed with how 'justice' is administered. Mandatory sentences, victimless crimes, fed/state employees getting away with clear felonies and not being even charged, politicians bending and breaking the laws for their own benefit. No - the immaturity of trusting the state to do what's right doesn't suit me well. I trust you more than I trust the state, with it's billions of lines of laws, rules, regulations, codes, and statutes.
 
One night after consuming a few adult beverages, a friend and I got into a discussion about the "no harm, no foul" issue. Our example was if Person A & Person B both fire a gun at another person but Person A hits his target and kills him while Person B misses his target, should Person A & B both be charged with the same crime? If A gets charged with a more severe crime than B (murder vs. attempted murder), aren't you basically punishing A for being a better shot? Not really relevant but an interesting thought ... or not.... I don't know... I'm drinking again.
 
dans2992 said:
Do you get many people hanging out above the top of the ORD bravo? Does that screw things up?
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It depends on the day. During Oshkosh, we'd be surprised if we had an ORD push and there WASN'T some VFR 1200 code at 10,500 or 11,500 over the Bravo. The airspace above a Bravo is Class E airspace, with one stipulation: a functional mode C transponder is required within the 30 NM Mode C veil.
dans2992 said:
BTW, what does "initiate an ARTS track" do?
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ARTS is short for Automated Radar Terminal System. It is the current software most terminal radar approach controls (TRACON's) use today. Currently, the FAA is modernizing terminal radar into a system called the Standard Terminal Automation Replacement System (STARS). In the enroute world, almost every ARTCC has migrated from HOST to ERAM. They are all components of the FAA's NETGEN modernization plan. We are starting to see advantages from these efforts, from more accurate radar displays to better tools to do the job and provide a service.

If I see a 1200 code out there, I might want to highlight that aircraft and differentiate him from any other 1200 code out there. In other words, I want to start a track on him. I can type whatever I like for a call sign, slew the target (that means hit ENTER), and ARTS will continually track the target.
 
SkyDog58 said:
One night after consuming a few adult beverages, a friend and I got into a discussion about the "no harm, no foul" issue. Our example was if Person A & Person B both fire a gun at another person but Person A hits his target and kills him while Person B misses his target, should Person A & B both be charged with the same crime? If A gets charged with a more severe crime than B (murder vs. attempted murder), aren't you basically punishing A for being a better shot? Not really relevant but an interesting thought ... or not.... I don't know... I'm drinking again.
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that's an interesting way to look at it. I guess a lot of our laws take actions and their results into the equation.
 
MarkZ said:
It depends on the day. During Oshkosh, we'd be surprised if we had an ORD push and there WASN'T some VFR 1200 code at 10,500 or 11,500 over the Bravo. The airspace above a Bravo is Class E airspace, with one stipulation...
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Been there, done that. Far less traffic in that location (IIRC) than at 6-8k south of Aurora. I always see a stream of inbounds there...
 
kyleb said:
Been there, done that. Far less traffic in that location (IIRC) than at 6-8k south of Aurora. I always see a stream of inbounds there...
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That depends on the day, and the stream of inbounds you see are likely a lot higher than you think they are...
 
dans2992 said:
Do you get many people hanging out above the top of the ORD bravo? Does that screw things up?

BTW, what does "initiate an ARTS track" do?
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Back in about 1979 (pre-Class B days....ORD was a Terminal Control Area...functionally the same) with a top of 8,000 MSL as I recall. I was headed from ND to Indy for a fraternity convention with three fraternity brothers and a pilot certificate less than a year old.

I decided I could go over the top of ORD and save some time! I climbed to 9,500' VFR SE bound.

About 10 or 15 miles from ORD I decided I should give them a heads-up so called approach with my position.

He responded "You're WHERE?!?" I told him.

He said, "Buddy, I've got 50 airplanes inbound to O'Hare descending through 10,000'! All I can say is GOOD LUCK!"

We got some good closeup looks at a variety of airliners! I had every light, including the dome light turned on and everyone's head on a swivel!

Lesson learned. I never did that again!
 
MarkZ said:
Currently, the FAA is modernizing terminal radar into a system called the Standard Terminal Automation Replacement System (STARS). In the enroute world, almost every ARTCC has migrated from HOST to ERAM. They are all components of the FAA's NETGEN modernization plan. We are starting to see advantages from these efforts, from more accurate radar displays to better tools to do the job and provide a service.
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Do me a favor and let me know when I can no longer lie to you about my airspeed. Thanks!

:D
 
I can't believe no one is giving you a hard time, you BRAVO BUSTER!!!!! Why don't u stop posting on PoA and go bust a bravo somewhere?!? Think u OWN the sky, dontcha?!? U should be hanged or stoned, or at least banned from eating cole slaw for a week!! BRAVO BUSTER!!!! Sheesh, I mean didn't you see that big blue line Bravo boundary in the sky or did u fly right thru it?!? Prob too busy staring at the magenta line to see the blue one.

Bravo buster.
 
How could you bust a Bravo anyway? Did you even look at the big blue line on the sectional? You're the reason why ASRS forms exist. I'd seriously think about getting Google Glass before you ever step foot in an aircraft again.
 
Velocity173 said:
How could you bust a Bravo anyway? Did you even look at the big blue line on the sectional? You're the reason why ASRS forms exist. I'd seriously think about getting Google Glass before you ever step foot in an aircraft again.
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"OK Glass, How bad is it to bust Bravo airspace?"
 
Chicago is friendly now! I was heading to osh and they cleared me direct midway heading north, to the lake shore at 1500 ft. If the engine quit we would probably be better off in lake michigan. I accepted it and was confused for a minute that they actually were letting us go through airspace when they ignored our calls the last few years heading to osh.
 
I believe you are your worst critic (as most of us are if we commit a mild offense of similar kind). Yes, it was wrong, no you didn't cause any trouble, yes, it is good to self reflect and learn a lesson, no they won't take away your license.

Glad you filed the report, good step. And glad that you didn't panic and kept on flying the airplane, that was the Wright thing to do (pun sure as heck intended :D ).

Have I busted any airspace in my count-full hours? Hopefully not. I do use the GPS as a cheating tool if in unknown territory so I would have no excuse for encroaching onto somebody's airspace.

The shock will pass, you will fly again, young eag..... WAIT A MINUTE ... so are you an eagle or a gecko? Avatar shows eagle, name says Gecko. Geckos can't fly!!
Something smells very fishy here. Do you sell insurance?
 
dans2992 said:
I find it intriguing that nobody even _noticed_.
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Ha i know a guy that landed at a controlled field without a clearance, taxied to the ga ramp and then called ground when they realized the wrong airport was under the wheels. No one noticed their arrival. When they called ground they were offered speedy service and clearance to the correct airport....

upon arrival at the correct airport the pic called the controlled field up and they admitted they never noticed what was happening .
 
Geico266 said:
Is there a controller in the house?

Don't you have alarms that go nuts when a bug smasher squawking 1200 encroaches into the air space?
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Didn't used to and from the sound of things it sounds like they still don't. It wouldn't surprise me if that changes in the near future, there are some pretty sophisticated radar systems going in all over the country. Bells, whistles and alarms I doubt but "busters" could get some symbol or color that calls attention to them. Someone around here should know.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Ha i know a guy that landed at a controlled field without a clearance, taxied to the ga ramp and then called ground when they realized the wrong airport was under the wheels. No one noticed their arrival. When they called ground they were offered speedy service and clearance to the correct airport....

upon arrival at the correct airport the pic called the controlled field up and they admitted they never noticed what was happening .
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:yikes::yikes::yikes:

Yes, a triple yikes!
 
ejensen said:
Denver approach has called my airport several times to ask who just landed. Don't know the outcomes.
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Remember when Front Range went Class D? We had a lot of guys busting DEN Class B making right turns out of the pattern off of 26. Eventually, everyone learned. :)
 
dans2992 said:
I find it intriguing that nobody even _noticed_.
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I've had traffic pass by me that ATC never mentioned. As my hours build so does my respect for ATC and the struggles they have. I've heard a lot of confused pilots out there make things worse.

That said 99% of the time I'm in the air I maintain a flight following. Fore flight is nice but it's tough to go wrong under ATC control.
 
Mopauly said:
I've had traffic pass by me that ATC never mentioned. As my hours build so does my respect for ATC and the struggles they have. I've heard a lot of confused pilots out there make things worse.

That said 99% of the time I'm in the air I maintain a flight following. Fore flight is nice but it's tough to go wrong under ATC control.
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Welcome to POA. I hope you enjoy it here.

However, I think you fundamentally misunderstand the role of flight following/VFR radar services. If you were on an IFR plan(actually under direct control by ATC), then I apologize for the error in advance.
 
docmirror said:
Welcome to POA. I hope you enjoy it here.

However, I think you fundamentally misunderstand the role of flight following/VFR radar services. If you were on an IFR plan(actually under direct control by ATC), then I apologize for the error in advance.
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Nah I get it, mis spoke on my part, my point was I try not to go it "alone" for the extra safety factor.
 
Anthony said:
Remember when Front Range went Class D? We had a lot of guys busting DEN Class B making right turns out of the pattern off of 26. Eventually, everyone learned. :)
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Front range is not a place to relax. A couple of inbounds landed at DEN. I do remember the long learning curve of those contract tower guys. Not too bad now.
 
So how many times can you busy Class Bravo airspace on a single flight without losing your ticket? Just curious as there is Class Bravo out the wazoo here in San Diego, LAX and Orange county with crazy shelves and super weirdo low altitude restrictions!
 
It all depends on what kind of havoc you cause.

B avoidance isn't that hard even in complex airspace if you plan adequately. It's the changes in plan that can get you, so take that into account.
 
Correct there are VFR corridors through San Diego, Orange County and LAX airspace. Getting flight following and if possible a Bravo clearance help.
 
Geico266 said:
Is there a controller in the house?

Don't you have alarms that go nuts when a bug smasher squawking 1200 encroaches into the air space?
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Yes

No

Only get a collision avoidance alarm if the two or more planes are on courses or altitudes that converge.
 
It’s kinda like speeding and the difference between getting a ticket or not getting pulled over at all. All depends on the controller and how egregious the violation.

My friend worked ATL approach and if CA CA went off or an RA report, he would track the aircraft to his destination. If nothing major happened, he might tag the aircraft as a “violator” but generally didn’t follow up.
 
RussR said:
I just have to ask, what prompted your response to an 8+ year old post?
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Someone posted earlier today before TM, reviving the thread. That post was deleted.
 
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