So, Is Busting Class "B" Airspace Really That Big Of A Deal?

Geico266

Geico266

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Geico
I am kidding of course it is! :redface: Read on for "Lesson Learned" .

Last night I busted Chicago "B" big time. :eek: :mad2: :rolleyes2:

I flight planned from Binghamton, NY to Crete, NE. Flight following all the way. Rather than fly over Lake Erie, I went to Cleveland then direct to Crete. All was good, lots of sever clear, a little head wind, but a very nice flight.

* I landed at Monee, IL (KC56) Rnwy 27 exactly my heading. When I landed I thought to my self; "Self, how cool is this. You are on a heading of 270, you land on runway 270, and you will take off on 270 and your course is 270 with no interference with Chicago airspace". Okay, what else do you think about for 6 hours? :dunno::lol:

The card reader for self serve was broke so I headed 21 miles NE to Gary, IN (KGYY). It is 8:00 and the setting sun in brutal, and I'm concerned about seeing traffic. I get fuel, call the tower, and depart "on course heading" to Crete, NE for the last leg. I set the auto pilot on the ground, set altitude to 4,500 msl and launch after clearance the tower. I would pick up flight following in the air because I know the controllers in Chicago are busy and really don't want to mess with little old me. :rolleyes: :mad2:

* Remember the part where I thought it was cool that I would not interfere with Chicago airspace? :mad2:

The sun was intense and I was scanning the skies for traffic not paying much attention to my location because in my mind I knew I would not conflict with Chicago B space. The AP was working great doing its assigned tasks flawlessly. I had my Rosen sunvisor clean and down scanning for traffic.

Before I realized it I was at 4,500' inside Chicago Class B outside shelf of 3,600'. I thought to myself; "Self, you are a dumbass." :yikes: :mad2:

Once I realized I was a complete idiot I took evasive action and descended to 3,500'. I cannot believe I did that. :rolleyes2:

I picked up flight following from the Quad Cities airport and they didn't say anything. I was squawking 1200 the whole time so they knew it was me.

I got home and filed a NASA form on line and called Chicago Control. They had no record of the incident as a "major problem", but took my name and number if anyone wanted to yell at me. The guy was very nice and thought I was being to hard on myself, but I really felt stupid. I still cannot believe I did that. :redface:

We all make mistakes.

I hope by posting this someone else will learn what not to do, a D more importantly what to do to avoid this. :yes:

Comments, criticism, and concerns welcome.
 
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I think the difference is whether or not you cause TCAS RAs.

I busted the KBUR Class C once (you'll find my article in this forum). Same issue. No traffic in that area, no foul. Got lucky.
 
I heard a guy screw up in the Richmond class C once and the words the controller used were "Do you know how close you came to hitting another aircraft?"
 
I was one told by a controller at my field kdpa, they don't really care if you do it far enough away from ohare. They seem to almost always be either directly east or west so you don't interfere much if you're north or south. I wouldn't do it just saying what the controller told us

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 
Denver approach has called my airport several times to ask who just landed. Don't know the outcomes.
 
Geico266 said:
I am kidding of course it is! :redface: Read on for "Lesson Learned" .

Last night I busted Chicago "B" big time. :eek: :mad2: :rolleyes2:

I flight planned from Binghamton, NY to Crete, NE. Flight following all the way. Rather than fly over Lake Erie, I went to Cleveland then direct to Crete. All was good, lots of sever clear, a little head wind, but a very nice flight.

* I landed at Monee, IL (KC56) Rnwy 27 exactly my heading. When I landed I thought to my self; "Self, how cool is this. You are on a heading of 270, you land on runway 270, and you will take off on 270 and your course is 270 with no interference with Chicago airspace". Okay, what else do you think about for 6 hours? :dunno::lol:

The card reader for self serve was broke so I headed 21 miles NE to Gary, IN (KGYY). It is 8:00 and the setting sun in brutal, and I'm concerned about seeing traffic. I get fuel, call the tower, and depart "on course heading" to Crete, NE for the last leg. I set the auto pilot on the ground, set altitude to 4,500 msl and launch after clearance the tower. I would pick up flight following in the air because I know the controllers in Chicago are busy and really do t want to mess with little old me. :rolleyes: :mad2:

* Remember the part where I thought it was cool that I would not interfere with Chicago airspace? :mad2:

The sun was intense and I was scanning the skies for traffic not paying much attention to my location because in my mind I knew I would not conflict with Chicago B space. The AP was working great doing its assigned tasks flawlessly. I had my Rosen sunvisor clean and down scanning for traffic.

Before I realized it I was at 4,500' inside Chicago Class B outside shelf of 3,600'. I thought to myself; "Self, you are a dumbass." :yikes: :mad2:

Once I realized I was a complete idiot I took evasive action and descended to 3,500'. I cannot believe I did that. :rolleyes2:

I picked up flight following from the Quad Cities airport and they didn't say anything. I was squawking 1200 the whole time so they knew it was me.

I got home and filed a NASA form on line and called Chicago Control. They had no record of the incident as a "major problem", but took my name and number if anyone wanted to yell at me. The guy was very nice and thought I was being to hard on myself, but I really felt stupid. I still cannot believe I did that. :redface:

We all make mistakes.

I hope by posting this someone else will learn what not to do, a D more importantly what to do to avoid this. :yes:

Comments, criticism, and concerns welcome.
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As long as you did not create a problem for ATC, they have better things to do.
But, if some whines, they must CYA, If you did not hear any thing from them by today I'd forget the issue, but you did file so now the FAA knows.
 
I just can't believe I did it. I live near class C so I am always careful about not budging it. Oh well, live and learn.
 
Busted LAX class B twice. Both times at the worst possible place, right under the approach on last shelf just before it goes to the ground. One time was just a brain fart and I busted by about 400ft very briefly, the other time was a blatant 1000ft. Both times immediately called up and confessed, both times no bust was recorded!

Another time my transponder broke up in Norcal and I had to get it back to my maintenance facility which is at Hawthorne. HHR is like right next to the threshold of LAX, you literally have a 747 on final beside you... No way to not pass under or over B or the Mode C mandatory zone to get there from where I was. I asked FF for coordination, told them my situation and they were very casual about it, told me to just stay out of B. I was sure I'd freak out some controller on next sector as a primary target only, but never heard a word then either.

I'm starting to think they're not manning the radar scopes;)
 
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I'm kind of curious why you decided to go to Gary for fuel. That was backtracking a bit and I believe there were other options such as jumping over to Kankakee or Joliet. Not judging, just curious about the thought process.

Now, the closest I came to busting Bravo was MEM. I was departing Dewitt Spain (M01) to the NW in a mighty 180 HP C172 on a cool day and almost climbed through the 1800' shelf over M01 before I cleared that ring where it jumps to 3000'. I believe I made it to 1,799.9' before catching it. Airspace can sneak up on you if you are not careful.

Not sure how I survived flying in SoCal as a student pilot and new PP without busting some airspace. That place is a mess.
 
Is there a controller in the house?

Don't you have alarms that go nuts when a bug smasher squawking 1200 encroaches into the air space?
 
This is one reason I *really* like to be on an instrument flight plan on much of any cross country if the airplane is equipped. They won't clear you through anything you shouldn't fly through, TFR(s) included. It's their job to keep you out of places they don't want you to be.
 
jesse said:
This is one reason I *really* like to be on an instrument flight plan on much of any cross country if the airplane is equipped. They won't clear you through anything you shouldn't fly through, TFR(s) included. It's their job to keep you out of places they don't want you to be.
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Yep, I should have picked up FF on the ground in Gary. I just have it in my head not to bother those guys because they are busy.
 
Geico266 said:
Yep, I should have picked up FF on the ground in Gary. I just have it in my head not to bother those guys because they are busy.
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Flight following helps, but it doesn't provide you with the same airspace and TFR protection that an actual instrument flight plan does.

Plus, chicago controllers don't pretend like they can't hear IFR aircraft like they do VFR :)
 
Geico266 said:
Yep, I should have picked up FF on the ground in Gary. I just have it in my head not to bother those guys because they are busy.
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My impression, obtained over many years of flying, is that in general ATC prefer to talk to you if you are visible on their radar. In fact, it makes them more busy, or at least more stressed, if they have to point you out as unknown traffic to someone when you are not communicating with them and hence "unverified" and unpredictable.
 
There was an impressive line of stationary thunderstorms in the area a few years ago, so I went up to take some pictures. In all of the climbing, circling, and picture taking, I got much closer to Atlanta's Class B than I wanted to, in fact I thought I might have busted it.

Landed, found the appropriate numbers and spoke with the "Duty Controller" or someone with a similar title at Hartsfield, who said "No, you didn't bust it, if you had, you'd have known about the time you landed. We track our airspace very carefully."

So I'm surprised Geico didn't elicit some sort of retribution from Chicago...
 
If you plot a straight line on FF from Gary to his destination, you barely slice into the outer ring of the Class B. You need to remember as well that FF, Garmin and other such representations of airspace can be different than how it is displayed on the controller's screen. He may not have even really breached the Bravo.
 
I know of a local Cirrus driver who took off out of a satellite Houston airport last March and entered B before picking up her IFR clearance, the FAA has been in "conversations" with her about it since, and last I heard they still haven't resolved this incident.
 
I was listening to MSN approach/tower one day and heard the dreaded call from approach to an aircraft to copy a number. The pilot asked what he had done:

"You just about got ran over by a jet"

Yikes.
 
I have occasionally been a little curious about how the human brain learns, and this report reminds me of that.
It seems we can do endless 'book' learning or other mental preparation to instill ideas into the neuron bank....and the result is only 'so-so'.
Combine a concept to be learned with an emotional stimulus or event, and it really sinks in.
In this case the OP studied, and knew what to do & what was right, but still goofed (no disrespect, I'm right there with ya).
Compare that (boring book learning) to this event, in which there is emotion involved (fear & anxiety about consequences). I think the emotion added to the learning event makes it 'stick' in the brain so much better; it has for me.
I have no idea how to use this theory - except, for example, at work I know I can gently remind employees a thousand times about something but I think if I blew a gasket in their direction about that thing, they would probably learn that action immediately! Maybe that instructor I knew of who whacked the students with a ruler from time to time figured this out! (Perhaps there is a more positive way to use this idea.)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I have occasionally been a little curious about how the human brain learns, and this report reminds me of that.
It seems we can do endless 'book' learning or other mental preparation to instill ideas into the neuron bank....and the result is only 'so-so'.
Combine a concept to be learned with an emotional stimulus or event, and it really sinks in.
In this case the OP studied, and knew what to do & what was right, but still goofed (no disrespect, I'm right there with ya).
Compare that (boring book learning) to this event, in which there is emotion involved (fear & anxiety about consequences). I think the emotion added to the learning event makes it 'stick' in the brain so much better; it has for me.
I have no idea how to use this theory - except, for example, at work I know I can gently remind employees a thousand times about something but I think if I blew a gasket in their direction about that thing, they would probably learn that action immediately! Maybe that instructor I knew of who whacked the students with a ruler from time to time figured this out! (Perhaps there is a more positive way to use this idea.)
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It is interesting how we learn! Since I had cleared my path from Monee, IL I had it in my head to not even worry about it. After I diverted I assumed 21 miles wouldn't make that much difference or something. I was really disappointed in myself, more concerned about the setting sun and traffic to avoid airspace restrictions.

Oh well, no one called yesterday so I'm feeling better about it. I thought for sure Rotorwing would have called his old FAA buddies and opened a can of whoop ass on me. :lol::eek:;)
 
I know a retired controller from ORD approach. I asked him about these 'incursions'. He said they had a list of things they would do, from nothing, to putting a 'tag' on the target and tracking it to a landing airport.

As posted above, I think it depends on the severity of the event. He went on to say if they did track the pilot down it may end with a 'Verbal lashing' or possible enforcement action.

Soon we all have the mode S transponders and it will harder to hide.
 
Mistakes happen. You learned from it. No harm no foul.

That's the short answer. Long answer coming.
 
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Looking at the direct route from Gary to Crete, it only penetrates the bravo by, at most, <1 nm. That combined with the fact that your direction of flight was basically tangent to the airspace, I'm not shocked that no alarm bells went off. Had you not corrected, you would have been in the bravo for about 5-7 minutes (14 nm; 120-140 kts). That seems like enough time for someone to notice, maybe not if they were busy.

Go forth and sin no more, my brother.
 
DJTorrente said:
Looking at the direct route from Gary to Crete, it only penetrates the bravo by, at most, <1 nm. That combined with the fact that your direction of flight was basically tangent to the airspace, I'm not shocked that no alarm bells went off. Had you not corrected, you would have been in the bravo for about 5-7 minutes (14 nm; 120-140 kts). That seems like enough time for someone to notice, maybe not if they were busy.

Go forth and sin no more, my brother.
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Exactly right, I didn't bust it much! :rolleyes: Just a little. ;)
 
Geico266 said:
Is there a controller in the house?

Don't you have alarms that go nuts when a bug smasher squawking 1200 encroaches into the air space?
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I asked that very question when I toured the Chicago Tracon. The answer is no. The controllers see the 1200's floating all around and they know where the Bravo is.... so if they catch one that busts that's it. Obviously if you pose a problem for them they'll know immediately, but if it's on the periphery and there are no potential conflicts they may not notice as quickly (if at all).

The only warnings they get are potential conflicts.
 
DJTorrente said:
Looking at the direct route from Gary to Crete, it only penetrates the bravo by, at most, <1 nm. That combined with the fact that your direction of flight was basically tangent to the airspace, I'm not shocked that no alarm bells went off. Had you not corrected, you would have been in the bravo for about 5-7 minutes (14 nm; 120-140 kts). That seems like enough time for someone to notice, maybe not if they were busy.

Go forth and sin no more, my brother.
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If it was a bust <1nm, the radars are not that precise to really call it a bust. That's also why you don't skirt that close outside of a Bravo... because the radars are only calibrated so often and they're not perfect. Our GPS is much more precise, which another reason they tell you to not skirt so close to a Bravo, even if you don't go in.
 
Here's my long answer.

When a VFR aircraft busts the Bravo airspace, it IS a big deal. Class Bravo airspace is "positive control airspace," meaning we have to ensure positive separation and control of all aircraft in the Bravo. I require a minimum of 1 1/2 miles or 500 feet separation between IFR and VFR aircraft , not counting applicable wake turbulence minima. If a 1200 code violates the Bravo, I have to ensure separation between him and all other aircraft operating within Bravo airspace. Most of the time, these incursions happen at a location that doesn't impact operations much.

That isn't always the case. If ORD is running west flow (landing 27R 27L 28C) and a VFR busts the Bravo flying the lake shore, I must abort the approaches for all ORD arrivals to ensure separation. If a violator forgets where ORD is and overflies the airport at 1,500 feet, we must shut down the airport until we figure out where the guy is going.

That's not good.

Every controller will "tag up" (initiate an ARTS track) any VFR he or she feels will impact IFR operations. We do this for several reasons. We tag up every Bravo violator as well.

How I'd handle a Bravo violator depends on the situation. It's been everything from letting the violator go up to and including consistent radar monitoring of a track, with a call to the tower/center/approach/airport operator where the track lands. The latter extreme ends with a request to call the facility. Paperwork possibly follows. It depends how badly the violator ruined everyone else's day.

I don't get my jollies by writing pilots up. If, however, the violator causes disruption of service for IFR aircraft, I move rather quickly to the "write em up" camp.

I've also had aircraft who were on Flight Following (especially the last few weeks with Oshkosh going on) who accidentally penetrated Bravo airspace without a clearance. I inform the pilot what he was doing, followed with a question if he was familiar with the area. If, in the rare instance, there was no IFR traffic to conflict, I will issue a Bravo clearance with a heading and altitude to remain clear of general operations. If, as is usually the case, there is IFR traffic, I will issue headings and altitudes to get out and remain clear of the Bravo.

Keep in mind, while you may legally operate VFR on the edge of Bravo airspace, ATC will conduct IFR operations up to the edge of the airspace. Sometimes, when volume exceeds our capacity or abnormal situations arise, we have to operate outside Bravo airspace. That's not your problem, it's ours. Our job is to ensure separation from all aircraft, it doesn't matter whether or not you talk to us.

Wouldn't you feel more secure talking to us, rather than guess you were in the right spot? I can tell you now, I'd rather talk to you, than guess what your intentions might be.

Who knows? I might be able to give you a shortcut through the Bravo.

Yes, that happens too. More often than you might think, or read about in these forums.

To the OP, the only thing I would add...is that next time....ask for flight following if you plan on operating near the Bravo. Even if you are below it. We appreciate knowing what you're up to. It helps us move everyone around more efficiently.
 
Do you get many people hanging out above the top of the ORD bravo? Does that screw things up?

BTW, what does "initiate an ARTS track" do?


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I busted the corner of PHX class B about 6 years ago in Feb. I took off from the Falcon headed northbound, and he gave me an immediate right turn and climb 4500'. Solo with a light load and I don't think he figured I could get up to 4500 that quick. There's a 5000-ish foot plateau over there and I wanted to get right on up. No excuse, but I did cut a small corner off the 4000' shelf on my way up. Appr just advised to maintain clear next time unless they said cleared into the class B. I kinda figured the 'climb and maintain 4500 feet' was enough, but he said 'negative'.

No repercussions, just the advise to hear the words cleared into the class B. I did not file a report, and really wasn't going to make anything out of it if he didn't.
 
MarkZ said:
Who knows? I might be able to give you a shortcut through the Bravo.

Yes, that happens too. More often than you might think, or read about in these forums.
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I had this happen just today.

Traffic call from NorCal, two targets in the pass I was headed into. NorCal recommended 4000 or higher and cleared me into class B.

They could have vectored me around.
 
Personally I never understood the "no harm, no foul" school of thought. Not just about aviation, but anything in life. I certainly am not a fan of giving violations all over the place, so I'm not really sure I have the solution.
My point is, two pilots could do the exact same thing but only one causes a disruption. He didn't know he was going to cause a disruption, and the guy who didn't cause one didn't know he wouldn't. I don't see why there's a difference. If I drive 80 through a school zone without mowing down any kids I doubt a cop would say "no harm, no foul".

I'm not in anyway trying to put down the OP or other viewpoints, it's just a concept I've never understood.
 
DJTorrente said:
Looking at the direct route from Gary to Crete, it only penetrates the bravo by, at most, <1 nm. That combined with the fact that your direction of flight was basically tangent to the airspace, I'm not shocked that no alarm bells went off. Had you not corrected, you would have been in the bravo for about 5-7 minutes (14 nm; 120-140 kts). That seems like enough time for someone to notice, maybe not if they were busy.

Go forth and sin no more, my brother.
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Yeah, that is what I basically wrote back on post #20. :yesnod:
 
Kritchlow said:
Personally I never understood the "no harm, no foul" school of thought. Not just about aviation, but anything in life. I certainly am not a fan of giving violations all over the place, so I'm not really sure I have the solution.
My point is, two pilots could do the exact same thing but only one causes a disruption. He didn't know he was going to cause a disruption, and the guy who didn't cause one didn't know he wouldn't. I don't see why there's a difference. If I drive 80 through a school zone without mowing down any kids I doubt a cop would say "no harm, no foul".

I'm not in anyway trying to put down the OP or other viewpoints, it's just a concept I've never understood.
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I tend to agree with you but do understand the concept. Since these rules of the road are not concepts of moral right and wrong, some people tend to focus on actual consequences rather than potential consequences. Actual vs potential is a sliding scale, not a solid line. So it's really a focus on high potential.

80 through a school zone or busting Class B by flying into the middle of it is simply a breed of potential more serious that 27 through a 20 mph school zone or nicking the edge of the Class B.

And, of course, real enforcement works the same way. Airspace incursions, clearance deviations and the like are handled differently depending on whether a problem was caused.
 
MarkZ said:
Mistakes happen. You learned from it. No harm no foul.

That's the short answer. Long answer coming.
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Thanks for the "long answer". ;)

I didn't realize Mark is a controller in the Chicago airspace. He was nice enough to take the time to call me and discuss my "incident". Made me feel much better.
 
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