Rotax clone from China?

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StraightnLevel said:
As a card-carrying American manufacturing executive, I whole-heartedly disagree. We need a middle class if we are to maintain a successful economy that supports everyone in the nation, and manufacturing capital equipment here in the US supports that middle class.

This is going to sound harsh, but cheerleading for off-shore "inexpensive" luxury items manufactured by slave-wage labor is, IMO, self-centered and short-sighted. Those of us who can afford luxuries like airplanes have a responsibility to pay a fair price that supports the people who build them for us.
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Great post. We cannot support a middle class by exporting manufacturing jobs and redeploying the displaced workers in lower paying service sector jobs.
 
I have to comment that Rotax 912i$ is suspiciously painted John Deere Green.

Rotax seems to want to control repairs and parts. They sure do build a fine Swiss timepiece of an engine. But the five year mandatory rubber replacement ($2500 April 2024) and twelve year TBO becomes prohibitively expensive to some.

It was suggested, at the Rotax iRMT training class, that the smart move at 12 years/1500 hours was to just buy a new Rotax and sell your old one to a homebuilder.

I think you can get these Zongshen engines in the aviation parts isle at Harbor Freight Tools. Don't forget to bring the coupon and get your free flashlight or tarp!
 
RyanShort1 said:
I’m no fan of the Chinese government system, but I rather suspect they are capable of making a good copy of the engine if this company’s QC is up to it. I suspect that will end up depending on how badly their management wants to gain a good reputation in the US market. I for one would be happy to see them meet certification standards.
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Capable sure. But based on the images I've already posted, I'm skeptical they're willing.
 
Didn't a company from China purchase Continental Motors? If so they have all the engineering available to them. Any one need a O200CH-a
 
This could be a merger of a few different threads...
I'd probably be willing to fly behind a Chotax if I get my back-up propulsion idea sorted out. That would be one step towards an affordable (<<100k) E-AB or (E-)LSA for people in their 20s, when the enthusiasm is sky-high and the budget is firmly on the ground.
 
AV8R_87 said:
This could be a merger of a few different threads...
I'd probably be willing to fly behind a Chotax if I get my back-up propulsion idea sorted out. That would be one step towards an affordable (<<100k) E-AB or (E-)LSA for people in their 20s, when the enthusiasm is sky-high and the budget is firmly on the ground.
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Also when people's risk:reward calculus tends to emphasize reward and minimize risk ;).

That being said, I've seen some real horror stories about even the most popular "bulletproof" engines having issues that would be unacceptable on a snow blower. So maybe we're already taking the same (or similar) risk with our reliance on decades-old engine designs without the benefit of any cost savings.
 
I love the idea of a company swooping in and building reasonably priced aircraft components. But not a Chinese copycat.
If I need Grade-A surveillance or censorship technology, sure, Chinese vendors are probably the best.
But if I need a mechanical device built with high quality and attention to detail because my life depends on it? No thanks.
 
fabricgator said:
After WWII, "Made in Japan" was real crap.... but they paid attention, crafted their components, and now we think of Japanese components (and bourbon) to be top notch
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Very true. The Chinese aren’t stupid people, they’ll probably eventually get there. But they’re certainly not there yet.
 
They can copy and manufacture most anything. Not sure I would want to fly behind one of their copies,until proven reliable.
 
You know this is kinda funny.

One one hand some people goes on about the Chinese system being a barrier to them doing certain things, which is actually completely false. Or there wouldn’t be so much fear about their military build up.

And on the other people cheering on the concept of market controls which is I think part of the Chinese system isn’t it?
 
Warmi said:
The problem is not with their intelligence but rather with the system itself …
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I don’t know that it’s their government or their “system”. It took the Japanese decades to figure out the importance of quality and how to achieve it; it’s taking the Chinese a while too. I mean, cranking out cheaply made, low quality crap by the container ship load will build your manufacturing capacity, but only so far.
 
DaleB said:
I don’t know that it’s their government or their “system”. It took the Japanese decades to figure out the importance of quality and how to achieve it; it’s taking the Chinese a while too. I mean, cranking out cheaply made, low quality crap by the container ship load will build your manufacturing capacity, but only so far.
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Most iPhones are made in China. Most laptop and PC components are made in China. Most drones are made in China. 54% of the world's steel is made in China.

Do you think Walmart stuff is all they make?
 
China has the capability to make really good stuff. But some stuff they know we will buy anyway, so why spend the money to make it good?
 
Ed Haywood said:
Most iPhones are made in China. Most laptop and PC components are made in China. Most drones are made in China. 54% of the world's steel is made in China.

Do you think Walmart stuff is all they make?
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Never said that. But for every iPhone there’s a container load of truly crappy substandard sh** being churned out. Denying that would be ignoring reality just as surely as pretending that everything made there is of the highest quality.
 
DaleB said:
Never said that. But for every iPhone there’s a container load of truly crappy substandard sh** being churned out. Denying that would be ignoring reality just as surely as pretending that everything made there is of the highest quality.
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I haven’t really studied it, but I think that, generally speaking, the quality stuff is from non-Chinese companies who have set up facilities in China (like Apple) and provided processes and quality control. Much of the substandard Chinese crap has a homegrown pedigree.

Just a perception and could be wrong.
 
DaleB said:
Never said that. But for every iPhone there’s a container load of truly crappy substandard sh** being churned out. Denying that would be ignoring reality just as surely as pretending that everything made there is of the highest quality.
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The Chinese will build at whatever quality level they are commissioned to, but the price will reflect it. Where ethics can become a problem is that they'll start cutting corners to increase profits hoping that their customer doesn't notice. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The reason you see the low quality goods being exported from China is because people buy the stuff. If people didn't buy it, they'd have to do better.

I think a lot of people are in denial about Chinese capabilities. I'd want to evaluate one of these engines personally before I flew behind it but my guess is that they're better than this thread would suggest. Regardless, I seriously doubt the recreational aviation market was the Chinese target for this engine so we likely won't see many showing up on new E/AB or LSA builds.
 
Half Fast said:
I haven’t really studied it, but I think that, generally speaking, the quality stuff is from non-Chinese companies who have set up facilities in China (like Apple) and provided processes and quality control. Much of the substandard Chinese crap has a homegrown pedigree.

Just a perception and could be wrong.
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I share your opinion.
 
mondtster said:
I think a lot of people are in denial about Chinese capabilities.
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I’m not one of them. I understand their capabilities, but I also understand their standard practices and where they are in their evolution, from a manufacturing standpoint.

mondtster said:
I'd want to evaluate one of these engines personally before I flew behind it but my guess is that they're better than this thread would suggest. Regardless, I seriously doubt the recreational aviation market was the Chinese target for this engine so we likely won't see many showing up on new E/AB or LSA builds.
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I suspect they are mostly targeting the UAV market. Personally, I’d trust one about as far as I could toss it… but to be fair, I wouldn’t insist on including the weight of the prop. To make it more sporting I wouldn’t even include the oil and coolant.

I wouldn’t want to evaluate one personally; I’m quite happy to leave that to those more adventurous, more trusting, or simply more foolish than I. Give them a couple decades to work out where they can and can’t cut corners on materials, tolerances, or manufacturing practices and maybe it will be a different picture.
 
I personally don’t feel completely comfortable behind any Rotax, so I DURN SURE can’t be comfortable behind a Chinese clone.

Before you start flaming me and quoting all the wonderful experiences with Rotax engines, I completely respect your opinions and rights, just as I feel that I have a right to my own opinion. Please enjoy your Rotaxes.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Elsewhere on PoA, there is a thread bemoaning the lack of existence of a $100K GA aircraft.

If we hope to ever get near that target, importing major components such as engines and avionics will be necessary.
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I pray that this was written as a joke.
 
Half Fast said:
I haven’t really studied it, but I think that, generally speaking, the quality stuff is from non-Chinese companies who have set up facilities in China (like Apple) and provided processes and quality control. Much of the substandard Chinese crap has a homegrown pedigree.

Just a perception and could be wrong.
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Foxconn which is a Taiwanese is a huge part of Apple manufacturing. And they do that on mainland China and now moving to India.

If you trust Taiwan to make leading edge (and who doesn’t) silicon chips, it makes sense.

It is irrational and simply bias view to think China = low quality. Many international firms have significant exposure in manufacturing in China. And that results in knowledge transfer. And eventually they means it brings up the quality of more stuff from China.

When you stay at a good hotel in China instead of the hotel excuse about environmental concerns, they change your towels everyday, fold whatever you had lying around, tie up neatly your USB cords and leave you treats cause it’s Halloween or Christmas or whatever. This is attention to details, and shows you what can be achieved if they actually want to. And there are cities now in China that makes major western cities look like towns.

None of above applied to the engine in question, but it would be ignorant to just paint China with a wide brush and dangerous if your concern is born out of a sense of the risk a stronger more prosperous China has on the world order, which is what I think a lot of the knee jerk reactions are flowing from.
 
SebIp said:
It is irrational and simply bias view to think China = low quality. Many international firms have significant exposure in manufacturing in China. And that results in knowledge transfer. And eventually they means it brings up the quality of more stuff from China.
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Ever walk into a Harbor Freight? You can smell the Chinesium in the parking lot. Purchases are a crap shoot. Not something that would make me feel warm and fuzzy. Could they make a great product? Absolutely....but you be the beta tester.
 
SebIp said:
If you trust Taiwan to make leading edge (and who doesn’t) silicon chips, it makes sense.
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For life-critical applications, I don't, at least without extensive qualification testing. I had difficulties with products from Chinese and other overseas foundries when I was with Lockheed; mostly prototype stuff, as we couldn't use them in deliverables. Can they make good stuff? Sure, but the process control was often loose and you couldn't be sure what you'd get from lot to lot.
 
Half Fast said:
For life-critical applications, I don't, at least without extensive qualification testing. I had difficulties with products from Chinese and other overseas foundries when I was with Lockheed; mostly prototype stuff, as we couldn't use them in deliverables. Can they make good stuff? Sure, but the process control was often loose and you couldn't be sure what you'd get from lot to lot.
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I’m not seeing the difference between that and most things I have tried to get done in the US these days… we are our own worst enemy.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I’m not seeing the difference between that and most things I have tried to get done in the US these days… we are our own worst enemy.
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True, but it’s much more difficult to supervise and manage an overseas supplier, especially when there are ITAR constraints.
 
The Chinese manufacturing mentality is "make it as good as needed to get the job done and no better." Since WWII, when they started building up their modern military, all of their Russian cloned vehicles and weapons worked, but not as well as the Russian manufactured versions. There is a marked difference in quality, fit and finish. It's not an entirely illogical strategy - more arms minimally meeting service requirements are more valuable than less arms exceeding them.

That said, Nanchang Yak copies seem to be fairly solid and you see a lot flying here in the US. They do seem to put a little more effort in to their military aircraft.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The Chinese manufacturing mentality is "make it as good as needed to get the job done and no better." Since WWII, when they started building up their modern military, all of their Russian cloned vehicles and weapons worked, but not as well as the Russian manufactured versions. There is a marked difference in quality, fit and finish. It's not an entirely illogical strategy - more arms minimally meeting service requirements are more valuable than less arms exceeding them.

That said, Nanchang Yak copies seem to be fairly solid and you see a lot flying here in the US. They do seem to put a little more effort in to their military aircraft.
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The Nanchang is definitely a solid design and built well.
 
kyleb said:
Great post. We cannot support a middle class by exporting manufacturing jobs and redeploying the displaced workers in lower paying service sector jobs.
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The middle class is already gone, unfortunately. The average income in the US is sub $60k. Can’t do much with that these days.
 
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Racerx said:
Ever walk into a Harbor Freight? You can smell the Chinesium in the parking lot. Purchases are a crap shoot. Not something that would make me feel warm and fuzzy. Could they make a great product? Absolutely....but you be the beta tester.
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Some of us old geezers can remember the same thing said of "Made in Japan" and "Made in Taiwan". 20 years later, American car executives were selling their first born sons for the management secrets of Toyota. Anyone want to argue that Chrysler has superior QC to Honda? One big reason we are willing to go to war to defend Taiwan is that they produce 50% of the world's microprocessor chips.

China has people willing to work for a buck an hour and a 10% risk of accidental death. So of course if Harbor Freight wants to buy a set of box wrenches for $2, someone in China will be happy to set up a production line for that. But it would be very foolish to assume that is all they are capable of doing. That's like pointing to McDonalds hamburgers as evidence that the US cannot cook good food.

SebIp said:
if your concern is born out of a sense of the risk a stronger more prosperous repressive autocratic China has on the world order
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FIFY

We underestimate China at our peril. And not just economic peril.
 
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