Reno Air Race Crash

The trajectory kinda reminds me of the GLOC accident with BA6 back in 2007. Just kept descending in the bank with no attempt to roll out.

 
Spring Ford said:
I recently watched a youtube video featuring Robert "Hoot" Gibson. He has raced various piston warbirds at Reno and after that raced his own modified Cassutt Racer. Regarding the P-51 he was specifically asked if he wore a G suit. The reply was - too heavy, we are racing and the weight would be disadvantageous.

He said that he did not look at the G meter during the races but *as I recall* he said that the recording needle read 6.5G afterwards.

Obviously this jet might be different.
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I'm sure 6+ g is not unusual in this sport. In my fighter, an easy energy sustaining turn is 3-4G, and 6-7 is not much more. These straight wing warbirds are G monsters at high speed, or so I'm told. Just simple geometry and physics of level flight can confirm the G requirements. These guys and gals are working hard, especially without the extra 1G or so of protection the chaps are advertised to provide. I imagine Hoot's comment referred to not just the G suit itself (which is quite light), but also the additional equipment required to support it....especially in an aircraft without bleeds (which all fighters have, and use to pressurize the suit).
 
Velocity173 said:
Get rid of air shows too while we’re at it. Too many accidents over the years and the military participation is an unnecessary burden on the taxpayers.
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So give the money to TV as advertising?

Air shows are actually recruiting advertising. Just like the military participating in shooting movies.
 
Sluggo63 said:
It was asked and answered above, but G-LOC is G-induced Loss Of Consciousness.
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Which is different than F-ILOC which is Food Induced Loss of Consciousness which happens after Thanksgiving dinner. :D Bit of levity on a sad occasion
 
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nauga said:
The Galloping Ghost crash was a miserable failure of risk mitigation on many sides. I'm OK if you disagree, but I don't think expecting the general public to understand and accept the risk of the causal factors in this accident is realistic or proper risk mitigation. I also think it's a cop-out to say the general public should have understood those risks.

That being said, I have nothing against air racing in general. I won't be in the crowd with you, not because I'm not willing to accept the risk, but because I find it boring and largely pointless.

Nauga,
flat out
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I agree that it was a huge failure. I never said that it was acceptable. I am simply saying that whatever we do, some level of risk will always exist, and anyone attending these events should know that.
 
RyanB said:
You and me both. This kind of foolishness gets filed in the same category as STOL competitions. Ultimately, there’s no point in any of it, other than trying to prove who has the largest testicles. Each to their own, but I don’t get the point of these air race spectaculars.
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I think the general public would argue there is no point to general aviation. Is there a point in a $100 hamburger?

Does a kid ever tug on their parent's sleeve and say "Daddy I'd like to go watch Skycatchers do touch and goes"? No. They don't.

Air racing is the fastest motor sport on earth. There is risk involved. I don't see where the size of genitalia comes into it. Have you ever seen a 3350 fire up in person? It is spectacular. Does the sound of a Merlin not make you jump up from the table and run outside?

If bumbling along at 3000', not exceeding 20 degrees of bank angle does it for you then you're right - you don't get it.
 
aftCG said:
Does a kid ever tug on their parent's sleeve and say "Daddy I'd like to go watch Skycatchers do touch and goes"? No. They don't.
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I spend weekends working in my hangar at a local grass strip just outside the Tampa burbs. Not a day goes by without a family wandering onto the field to look at planes. There are some cool airplanes here, but the Cubs seem to get the most interest.

It's not a zero sum game. Aviation has something for everyone. Air racing, airshows, aerobatics, warbirds, vintage planes, LSA, ultralights, homebuilts, flight training ... all have their place. Cessna 152's bore me now, but when I was getting my PPL it was the coolest plane in the world.
 
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Katamarino said:
I agree that it was a huge failure. I never said that it was acceptable. I am simply saying that whatever we do, some level of risk will always exist, and anyone attending these events should know that.
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I'm not quite following, it sounds like you're saying the public should know they are accepting unacceptable risks. I agree there is some level of risk in everything, but I think there's a level of trust at events like these that may be unwarranted. I'm all but certain the public was not aware of the level of risk they were accepting that day. There are certainly other days and other events where similar unknowing acceptance of high risk occurs, but this is the one I'm discussing.

Nauga,
who knows there are unknown unknowns
 
mryan75 said:
What's pointless is comparing "non-commercial GA" to people racing fighter trainers at 500 MPH a few hundred feet AGL.
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To some extent it is, but if you're saying racing is pointless, so is flying to get a $100 hamburger. We don't need to do this. The general public would not care if we went away.

I wanted to see what the data was compared to NASCAR. I understand that NASCAR has a lot more races, so the data isn't exactly a fair comparison.
NASCAR races have had around 84 driver fatalities and 28 non-drivers (spectators, mechanics, officials, etc) since 1948
They also list 17 that died in their cars from a medical issue, then crashed, so not considered a fatal crash.

Reno Air Races have had 32 fatalities since 1972
1 was a wing-walker hanging from the bottom of a plane when the pilot go too low and killed him.
2 pilots were killed when they collided.
10 were spectators killed when Galloping Ghost went in. 70 seriously injured.
1 died from a heart attack, then crashed.
 
Lowflynjack said:
To some extent it is, but if you're saying racing is pointless, so is flying to get a $100 hamburger. We don't need to do this. The general public would not care if we went away.

I wanted to see what the data was compared to NASCAR. I understand that NASCAR has a lot more races, so the data isn't exactly a fair comparison.
NASCAR races have had around 84 driver fatalities and 28 non-drivers (spectators, mechanics, officials, etc) since 1948
They also list 17 that died in their cars from a medical issue, then crashed, so not considered a fatal crash.

Reno Air Races have had 32 fatalities since 1972
1 was a wing-walker hanging from the bottom of a plane when the pilot go too low and killed him.
2 pilots were killed when they collided.
10 were spectators killed when Galloping Ghost went in. 70 seriously injured.
1 died from a heart attack, then crashed.
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I see your point, but the NASCAR guys are professional drivers. I understand this guy had a few thousand hours, but still seems to me these are weekend-warrior types. And another difference: I'm a BIG F1 fan - the level of safety planning and the professional crew, race engineers, telemtry data, maintenance, etc, is certainly unlike anything these folks can afford or have access to. I wouldn't say ban it, if you want to go out and auger into the desert for your own entertainment, be my guest. But you cannot in any way compare this to "GA" flying.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I would have too, except there was no such thing as a SkyCatcher when I was a kid! I did watch a lot of 172s do them though!
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Well, yeah, for me it was 172s as well. Point is, kids sure as heck did and do! :)
 
I'd be curious to know the numbers for Formula 1 and Endurance racing.

It took many decades to achieve the safety those races now enjoy.
 
aftCG said:
I think the general public would argue there is no point to general aviation. Is there a point in a $100 hamburger?

Does a kid ever tug on their parent's sleeve and say "Daddy I'd like to go watch Skycatchers do touch and goes"? No. They don't.

Air racing is the fastest motor sport on earth. There is risk involved. I don't see where the size of genitalia comes into it. Have you ever seen a 3350 fire up in person? It is spectacular. Does the sound of a Merlin not make you jump up from the table and run outside?

If bumbling along at 3000', not exceeding 20 degrees of bank angle does it for you then you're right - you don't get it.
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I would add that at Reno (previously, not anymore…unless certain aircraft return), one can see, feel, and hear versions of a Merlin, Griffin, and 2800/3350/4360 that give a completely different sensory experience than one will find at any airshow or Oshkosh.

Anyone who has experienced feeling/hearing/seeing a race Merlin at 120+ inches, or Rare Bear’s 3350, knows exactly what I’m talking about.
 
aftCG said:
Does a kid ever tug on their parent's sleeve and say "Daddy I'd like to go watch Skycatchers do touch and goes"? No. They don't.
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I was moderately entertained with the livestream of the Reno races (before the accident) this past weekend. (I had things to do Sunday afternoon so I turned the TV off and heard about the crash later. :( )

But I much prefer watching the livestream of airplanes taking off and landing at OSH -- vintage, warbirds, plain ol' GA spam cans, everything. Of course a gusty crosswind makes it even more entertaining. :D

And those airplanes at OSH even sometimes make right turns.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
I'd be curious to know the numbers for Formula 1 and Endurance racing.

It took many decades to achieve the safety those races now enjoy.
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In the 60's F1 drivers were dropping like flies. I remember it being something like 3 drivers a year (and there are/were 20-odd drivers - that's not a good percentage!). The last F1 driver death was 2014; prior to that it was two deaths on the same weekend in 1994 (including Ayrton Senna), and prior to that it was two deaths in 1982.

So that's 5 in 40 years.

PS And if you want to see safety, look at Romain Grosjean's 2020 crash in Bahrain. I was watching that live and the only thing I wondered at the time was "who just died?"
 
mryan75 said:
But you cannot in any way compare this to "GA" flying.
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My only comparison is when we start saying things like RyanB said, "This kind of foolishness gets filed in the same category as STOL competitions. Ultimately, there’s no point in any of it, other than trying to prove who has the largest testicles." You want to start banning things that you think are foolish and have no point... I'm betting 85% or more of general aviation falls into this category if you ask a non-pilot. We fly 150 miles to get a burger and come back because we enjoy it, kind of foolish.
 
nauga said:
I'm not quite following, it sounds like you're saying the public should know they are accepting unacceptable risks. I agree there is some level of risk in everything, but I think there's a level of trust at events like these that may be unwarranted. I'm all but certain the public was not aware of the level of risk they were accepting that day. There are certainly other days and other events where similar unknowing acceptance of high risk occurs, but this is the one I'm discussing.

Nauga,
who knows there are unknown unknowns
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I am saying that when we attend such events, the same as when we do pretty much anything in our lives, we accept that there is a certain level of risk even though we can't quantify it.

When we drive, we accept that there might be a drunk driver on the road who will do us harm. That fact isn't "acceptable" in the usual sense of the word, but if you don't accept it, you can't get much done. The same applies here - it's not "acceptable" that negligence occurred and led to Galloping Ghost's crash, but by attending we accept that there are certain risks which are both unknown and outside of our control.

Such is life.
 
Lowflynjack said:
My only comparison is when we start saying things like RyanB said, "This kind of foolishness gets filed in the same category as STOL competitions. Ultimately, there’s no point in any of it, other than trying to prove who has the largest testicles." You want to start banning things that you think are foolish and have no point... I'm betting 85% or more of general aviation falls into this category if you ask a non-pilot. We fly 150 miles to get a burger and come back because we enjoy it, kind of foolish.
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Point well made and taken!
 
I’d suspect if there were 4 races a year, there would be an initial spike in accidents, but better safety would kick in in a couple of years due to more experience and opportunity to improve and innovate. As it is, just once a year isn’t much.
 
35 AoA said:
I imagine Hoot's comment referred to not just the G suit itself (which is quite light), but also the additional equipment required to support it....especially in an aircraft without bleeds (which all fighters have, and use to pressurize the suit).
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If, however, it were required equipment, the added weight becomes moot, as everyone would have the same increase. Fire suppression equipment adds weight to a race car, but NASCAR requires everyone to have it.

I want to see air racing continue, but I’d also like to see the racing community do a bit more self-regulation to improve safety.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I’d suspect if there were 4 races a year, there would be an initial spike in accidents, but better safety would kick in in a couple of years due to more experience and opportunity to improve and innovate. As it is, just once a year isn’t much.
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True, but I’m skeptical that the available money would support more races.
 
mryan75 said:
What's pointless is comparing "non-commercial GA" to people racing fighter trainers at 500 MPH a few hundred feet AGL.
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me burning 30 gallons of leaded fuel to get a hamburger at a mediocre cafe is just as pointless as racing an L-39

ban sports cars and Twinkies too. what's the point?

RyanB said:
Not even remotely close. Stop your straw man arguments.
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how is it a straw man? honest question, why not ban pointless recreational general aviation based on some of the standards I have seen in this thread? only allow GA for commercial operations and flight training. accidents will be nearly washed away.
 
readytocopy995 said:
honest question, why not ban pointless recreational general aviation based on some of the standards I have seen in this thread? only allow GA for commercial operations and flight training. accidents will be nearly washed away.
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And recreational boating. Car shows and car races. Off road racing, whether cars, trucks, or bikes. Kids go-carts. Amusement rides. Football, baseball, basketball, tennis, golf …especially golf. Trophy hunting. Trophy wife hunting. All those things are pointless in some context and have an element of danger.

Ban ‘em all…
 
kyleb said:
And recreational boating. Car shows and car races. Off road racing, whether cars, trucks, or bikes. Kids go-carts. Amusement rides. Football, baseball, basketball, tennis, golf …especially golf. Trophy hunting. Trophy wife hunting. All those things are pointless in some context and have an element of danger.

Ban ‘em all…
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You left out horseback riding. Certainly unneccessary today, and quite dangerous.
 
Half Fast said:
You left out horseback riding. Certainly unneccessary today, and quite dangerous.
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And lawn mowers. We could all have a few sheep and save the horrific mutilations that occur while operating power mowers.

Think of the children.
 
I agree it's pointless.
But so is every type of racing is it not?
Seems like a ton of fun, like all racing.
 
DaleB said:
And lawn mowers. We could all have a few sheep and save the horrific mutilations that occur while operating power mowers.
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Or we could not have grass at all and save the water! I'm starting to realize a lot of things in my life are not necessary!
 
DaleB said:
And lawn mowers. We could all have a few sheep and save the horrific mutilations that occur while operating power mowers.

Think of the children.
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Sheep are actually a sleeper item. I think that they are great... had a pair back in the day and actually did use them to "mow" lawns.

And I'm thinking that this "pointless" business is pretty introverted. What's pointless for you, may be meaningful, useful, and helpful for others. Again, you may not agree, but most people don't drop money on experimental stuff without a goal, even if that goal is just to go 5 KTS faster than the other guy.
 
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