Reno Air Race Crash

[Kenny Phillips]

I think for aviation, the answer is well established. You can replace everything but the data plate.

That was true in the past, but now the FAA frowns upon jacking up the data plate and putting a new plane under it.

 

[iamtheari]

AOPA has released an "Early Analysis" video on the crash:

 

[hindsight2020]

Damn, word for word this guy. I'd appreciate if Mr McSpadden would properly cite my work next time he goes on monetizing a video. Ditto for appealing to authority by flashing free time and production money to vlog, both which I lack. Plagiarism is no laughing matter.

/sarc

 

[Velocity173]

It’s not pointless if it’s entertaining. That’s the whole point…to entertain.

I went to the races in 1999. While my primary purpose was to watch the airshow I must admit, seeing the various classes of races was entertaining. Not something I’d ever seriously get into but worth the price of admission. Thunderbirds about took us out with the head on crossover break but that’s a whole other issue. Oddly enough the FAA shut that maneuver down not long after that. Same as the Blues.

Oh what does GLOC mean anyway?

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Oh what does GLOC mean anyway?

It means someone's having problems spelling GLOCK.

 

[Bob aero si]

• Juan Brown (blancolirio) is confident it was a G-loc event. I neither endorse nor disagree; I don't know enough about air racing and all that's involved. Just reporting. But it seems to make sense.

Hunter Handsfield
View attachment 110686

My first thought was G-loc. After seeing Juan's video, I think another possibility could be transonic "aileron snatch" (Yes, it is a real term) or transonic control reversal. (Chuck Yeager survived to figure that one out.) Does anyone know what his Mach number would be at those atmospheric conditions? Have any L39 drivers experienced very heavy aileron control force increases compared to the elevator force increases at those speeds?

 

[Pinecone]

Vne is 440 knots. Max speed at 16,000 feet is 354.

It is a 7,200 pound aircraft with less than 2000 pounds of thrust.

Unlikely it is any transonic issue.

 

[hindsight2020]

aeroelastic effects are a function of true airspeed not indicated (iow, they stem from the lowering of the dampening coefficient of the medium with increasing altitude). Low-altitude you're generally gonna hit structural static limits before you get into the aeroelastic regime.

Whatever structural shedding, it appears it occurred after the deceased lost consciousness, if the time stamps are being reported correctly.

 

[nauga]

aeroelastic effects are a function of true airspeed not indicated (iow, they stem from the lowering of the dampening coefficient of the medium with increasing altitude). Low-altitude you're generally gonna hit structural static limits before you get into the aeroelastic regime.

Static aeroelasticity (e.g. control reversal) is very much a function of equivalent airspeed (calibrated + compressibility correction) i.e. dynamic pressure, dynamic aeroelasticity (e.g flutter) is more a function of true airspeed as you said. That being said and from what I've seen in the video it didn't show characteristics of either.

Nauga,
Who haz opinion, but it will remain his alone.

 

[Omalley1537]

Vne is 440 knots. Max speed at 16,000 feet is 354.

It is a 7,200 pound aircraft with less than 2000 pounds of thrust.

Unlikely it is any transonic issue.

Not that it would render your other points invalid, but this aircraft, like some others for Reno, was running a different engine producing a claimed 3000 lbs.

 

[Pinecone]

Speed increases at the cube of the power.

Not going to go 90 knots faster to reach beyond Vne.

Remember, the aircraft has been tested for things like this up to Vne.

 

[Sluggo63]

Maybe not as simple as you think. G-suits don't prevent GLOC, and there are common conditions where they are less effective, like rapid G-onset. The best preventative measure is preparation. Even with a G-suit and good training it's still possible to GLOC at remarkably low G. With training and preparation, it's possibly with withstand remarkably high G and rapid onset without a g-suit. Unlimited acro guys do it frequently.

Nauga,
gettin' his grunt on

I think the other thing that hasn't been mentioned (as may not even be a factor in this accident) is the push-pull effect of G-tolerance.

If negative (or less than 1-G) is experienced, then positive G's are encountered, that severely reduces ones G-tolerance.

This used to be especially common back in my T-37 days with new students during spin training. At the end of the spin recovery, the student was required to move the stick abruptly full forward, until the stall was broken, then neutralize controls and recover from the dive. If the student held the stick forward too long, we'd get pretty negative in the seat, followed by a bunch of positive Gs to recover from the dive could put you in a bad situation G-wise (especially taking into account that the T-37 had a very rapid, if not the most rapid G-onset rate of any AF aircraft at the time).

Now, I don't know if the mishap pilot went light trying to get outside the turn before pulling hard to get back to the course, but if he did, that could have severely reduced his G-tolerance before G-LOC.

 

[Omalley1537]

Speed increases at the cube of the power.

Not going to go 90 knots faster to reach beyond Vne.

Remember, the aircraft has been tested for things like this up to Vne.

Hence my line about not rendering other points invalid. I was just correcting your statement about the aircraft’s thrust capabilities.

 

[1RTK1]

I won't be in the crowd with you, not because I'm not willing to accept the risk, but because I find it boring and largely pointless.

Nauga,
flat out

Going to the Reno air races is much more than just watching planes go around in a circle. Like hunting, fishing, flying or anything else you do, it's about being with friends and comradery. I've sat in section 3 for years, and see some friends only once a year. The Reno air races is a yearly father daughter event for me.
When you get to know some of the people involved watching becomes more fun, you're rooting for your friends. The Blue angels, noon time shows and planes on static display are interesting to see.
To each his own

 

[Mxfarm]

Going to the Reno air races is much more than just watching planes go around in a circle. Like hunting, fishing, flying or anything else you do, it's about being with friends and comradery. I've sat in section 3 for years, and see some friends only once a year. The Reno air races is a yearly father daughter event for me.
When you get to know some of the people involved watching becomes more fun, you're rooting for your friends. The Blue angels, noon time shows and planes on static display are very interesting to see.

sounds like baseball, but I’d rather watch the planes go round and round.

 

[BrianP]

Going to the Reno air races is much more than just watching planes go around in a circle. Like hunting, fishing, flying or anything else you do, it's about being with friends and comradery. I've sat in section 3 for years, and see some friends only once a year. The Reno air races is a yearly father daughter event for me.
When you get to know some of the people involved watching becomes more fun, you're rooting for your friends. The Blue angels, noon time shows and planes on static display are interesting to see.
To each his own

sounds like baseball, but I’d rather watch the planes go round and round.

Yup, and yup!

I’ve been a Phillies Sunday season ticket holder for the past 14 years (every Sunday home game, usually 14 games per season). Tailgating before the game with friends you don’t see on a day to day basis is priceless.

Similar with music festivals and aviation gatherings, you run into the same folks you may only see once a year. That builds friendships and professional contacts over time.

Back to Reno, I’ve never been but have no hesitation to do so. I understand and willingly accept the risks as a spectator. I’d enjoy watching the races in person. I’ll get out there some year to check it off the bucket list!

And I’m pretty certain the Sport Class at Reno would capture more of my excitement than my Phils at this time lol. 3rd place winner is from my area!