Remote airport, and you departed without activating your clearance

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

Touchdown! Greaser!
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Say you're out at a remote airport. You filed via the internet, and called the 800 number for your clearance. You copy down the information, but told the briefer providing the clearance you would need time to get ready and would call back for your release.

Distractions occur, the grey matter gets a bit calcified, and you launch into the VFR conditions without obtaining the official release. Just as you press the PTT button, you realize what you did, and humbly talk to the controller anyway to get it figured out before entering the clouds and continuing on to your destiation.

This would be a learning experience for sure, but how annoyed would the controller be for that sector? Would you get off with just a scolding or be referred to the FSDO?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Say you're out at a remote airport. You filed via the internet, and called the 800 number for your clearance. You copy down the information, but told the briefer providing the clearance you would need time to get ready and would call back for your release.

Distractions occur, the grey matter gets a bit calcified, and you launch into the VFR conditions without obtaining the official release. Just as you press the PTT button, you realize what you did, and humbly talk to the controller anyway to get it figured out before entering the clouds and continuing on to your destiation.

This would be a learning experience for sure, but how annoyed would the controller be for that sector? Would you get off with just a scolding or be referred to the FSDO?
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If you can maintain VFR I don't see why launching and picking it up in the air is such a problem? They already will know about your FP since you filed. However, it may be more of a pain in the neck for YOU, especially if you have to write down a lengthy route change while ALSO trying to maintain cloud clearances...
 
Since you didn't have the release yet, and you're still technically VFR, I think it would be just like picking up a clearance in the air, and the controller won't care.
 
Everskyward said:
Since you didn't have the release yet, and you're still technically VFR, I think it would be just like picking up a clearance in the air, and the controller won't care.
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This. Also you mentioned a remote airport which probably doesn't get a lot of traffic so it probably won't be an issue.
 
Since Flight Service never issued a release...no problem whatsoever. You departed VFR.

Launching VFR and picking up the clearance in the air is very common and perfectly acceptable procedure especially when radio contact can not be made on the ground. Only risk is that if there is a delay in issuing the clearance for whatever reason...for example IFR airspace at the uncontrolled field is locked up for other arriving IFR traffic...you need to be able to remain VFR until your clearance is issued.

If you launch into IMC in controlled airspace without a release...that is when you will have a potential problem.
 
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When you check in ,if you are truly VFR ,the controller will probably instruct you to remain VFR untill he obtains your clearance.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Say you're out at a remote airport. You filed via the internet, and called the 800 number for your clearance. You copy down the information, but told the briefer providing the clearance you would need time to get ready and would call back for your release.

Distractions occur, the grey matter gets a bit calcified, and you launch into the VFR conditions without obtaining the official release. Just as you press the PTT button, you realize what you did, and humbly talk to the controller anyway to get it figured out before entering the clouds and continuing on to your destiation.

This would be a learning experience for sure, but how annoyed would the controller be for that sector? Would you get off with just a scolding or be referred to the FSDO?
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I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around "briefer providing the clearance." Did you hear the words "ATC clears....."
 
AggieMike88 said:
Called Flight Service to get the CRAFT items.
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Ok. So he did give you the "clearance." When you told him you'd call back for the release did he say "Hold for Release?" Bottom line is you boo-booed because you forgot what you intended to do and what you thought they were expecting of you. But he boo-booed to if he didn't say "Hold for Release"
 
luvflyin said:
Ok. So he did give you the "clearance." When you told him you'd call back for the release did he say "Hold for Release?" Bottom line is you boo-booed because you forgot what you intended to do and what you thought they were expecting of you. But he boo-booed to if he didn't say "Hold for Release"
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According to the first post, he only got the clearance (route). He hadn't even called to ask for release yet.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. I'm kinda gettin down to the "details" here. If he wasn't told "Hold for Release" then he is not held.
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From an uncutrolled departure you would have be given a Void Time if released..."void if not off by xx:xx Zulu"
 
Shawn said:
From an uncutrolled departure you would have be given a Void Time if released..."void if not off by xx:xx Zulu"
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Yeah. Ya almost always get that, so almost always that always is probably the right word. The point here is when are you released, not the void time.
 
Everskyward said:
According to the first post, he only got the clearance (route). He hadn't even called to ask for release yet.
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And it is a hypothetical question...

(when we did it for real this past weekend, the Flight Service briefer asked how much time we needed before launching. Since we were very close to being ready we said we said 10 minutes. Briefer came back with the CRAFT items, cleared into controlled space, and void time. So no hold for release this time. But have had it in the past along with need to call back to request the release.)
 
Frankly, did you actually try this? Last time I tried to get a clearance via FSS prior to departure, I was told there was no way short of actually getting a void-time release. The "hold for release" thing usually occurs when you are talking directly to the ATC outlet that issues the clearance.
 
AggieMike88 said:
And it is a hypothetical question...

(when we did it for real this past weekend, the Flight Service briefer asked how much time we needed before launching. Since we were very close to being ready we said we said 10 minutes. Briefer came back with the CRAFT items, cleared into controlled space, and void time. So no hold for release this time. But have had it in the past along with need to call back to request the release.)
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On previous occasions when you were being held for release was there some inbound or outbound traffic that you were waiting for?
 
flyingron said:
Frankly, did you actually try this? Last time I tried to get a clearance via FSS prior to departure, I was told there was no way short of actually getting a void-time release. The "hold for release" thing usually occurs when you are talking directly to the ATC outlet that issues the clearance.
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I have done it often; gotten the routing in advance without a void time or release.
 
AggieMike88 said:
And it is a hypothetical question...

(when we did it for real this past weekend, the Flight Service briefer asked how much time we needed before launching. Since we were very close to being ready we said we said 10 minutes. Briefer came back with the CRAFT items, cleared into controlled space, and void time. So no hold for release this time. But have had it in the past along with need to call back to request the release.)
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before I had my new audio panel, I would get a void time. They usually gave me 10 minutes. being able to BT phone calls with the new panel is nice.
 
Everskyward said:
I have done it often; gotten the routing in advance without a void time or release.
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Many times, while overflying the controlling agency class C, on my way to landing at a nearby nontowered airport, I will ask them for my return leg clearance. I record, read back, they say call when ready to depart. No vinob, no hold for release. A side topic to Mike's, I know.

I think you are fine to depart vfr without calling for the release, there really is no accommodation for lost comm (telephone or radio) at this point. I would just say I couldn't get you and I am vfr til you can fit me in.
 
If I can stay VFR till I pick it up in the air, that's ideal
 
There's no requirement to release you in the first place. Once you've gotten your clearance with your void time, you're automatically released. Weather has nothing to do with it either. That clearance is based on the other IFR traffic inbound and being able to maintain IFR sep with other IFRs. That's why they shutdown the airport and wait for you to depart.

Without a "hold for release" from the ATC having jurisdiction over the airport or a specific release time, you're free to depart. Now, if you departed after your void time and squawking the code they assigned you, there will be a problem.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Many times, while overflying the controlling agency class C, on my way to landing at a nearby nontowered airport, I will ask them for my return leg clearance. I record, read back, they say call when ready to depart. No void, no hold for release. A side topic to Mike's, I know.
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Still a useful thing to know. I have asked the controller for the regional clearance telephone number before. But hadn't thought of arranging the next clearance directly with him.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Still a useful thing to know. I have asked the controller for the regional clearance telephone number before. But hadn't thought of arranging the next clearance directly with him.
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Do it if you have their #. It is either just Flight Service calling them and relaying the info to you or you calling them direct.
 
I am slowly building a list of the "local" numbers to the various TRACONs as I motor about the countryside. I have a note on my approach checklist to ask for it if time and lack of frequency activity permit.

The number provided is the usually the clearance desk for that TRACON. For example, when in the Houston area and I want to pick up the filed clearance, I call 281-433-5844.

Absent of the regional number, I call the national number, 888-766-8267. And when that number is having issues, I'll call Flight Service (800-WXBRIEF)
 
AggieMike88 said:
And it is a hypothetical question...

(when we did it for real this past weekend, the Flight Service briefer asked how much time we needed before launching. Since we were very close to being ready we said we said 10 minutes. Briefer came back with the CRAFT items, cleared into controlled space, and void time. So no hold for release this time. But have had it in the past along with need to call back to request the release.)
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A review of the clearance options is on slide #30 here. Sounds like in your original hypothetical ATC 'understood' that YOU understood you were holding for release when you said you'd call later. Worst case would be the sector is too busy to take you and will tell you to either maintain VFR or return to the departure airport and wait for traffic.

dtuuri
 
This is why we never issue a remote clearance without a void time. This has bitten many a controller in the butt. The pilot gets the clearance, goes back to the hangar to get something and departs an hour later.

If you depart VFR rather than wait for a release there is no guarantee when you will receive your IFR clearance. Any weather trouble you get yourself into in the mean time is self-inflicted.

This is the very reason GA ended up with reservations 15 years ago; because of the "I'll just depart VFR and pick up my clearance later" abuse.
 
AggieMike88 said:
And it is a hypothetical question...

(when we did it for real this past weekend, the Flight Service briefer asked how much time we needed before launching. Since we were very close to being ready we said we said 10 minutes. Briefer came back with the CRAFT items, cleared into controlled space, and void time. So no hold for release this time. But have had it in the past along with need to call back to request the release.)
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That's how it works. In your "hypothetical" where you told him it would be awhile and you would call back he is still required to say the words "Hold for release" if he is expecting you to. You initiating it doesn't relieve that responsibility.
 
Dave S. said:
This is why we never issue a remote clearance without a void time. This has bitten many a controller in the butt. The pilot gets the clearance, goes back to the hangar to get something and departs an hour later....
................
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Yup. Unless there is recent change, there is still not an absolute requirement for a controller to issue void times unless local directives require it. But to not do it is very poor judgement.
 
James331 said:
A huge benifit of lightspeed Zulus!
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Bose has it too :). I used it at the runup area to call and get my clearance, when asked about departure time I gave them a 30 second window since I was literally ready to go at that moment :).
 
luvflyin said:
Yup. Unless there is recent change, there is still not an absolute requirement for a controller to issue void times unless local directives require it. But to not do it is very poor judgement.
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Yep. We had it in a facility letter requiring it. To not give it ties that field up for way too long. Also had "when entering controlled airspace, fly heading..." to keep them clear of our Class D.
 
Nearly every departure for an IFR flight I do as you described, except that I inform the controller when getting my clearance that I will be departing VFR and activating my IFR clearance in the air. They'll give me my CRAFT information with the reminder to remain VFR. Of course I'm taking off in the D.C. FRZ so I have to call the tracon for a frequency and sound quawk code beforehand.

In your case you should have gotten a release time and void time, or a "hold for release". Since you didn't get a release, technically one could argue you violated an ATC instruction to "hold" if you took off anyway. At the end of the day however, provided it was VMC and you remained VFR until you got your clearance, you'd never see any sort of violation.
 
Any time I've flown out of PUW I just call up Seattle Center after I'm airborne and have them open the clearance. You can't talk to them from the ground (I've even stuck my head in the cockpit of a Horizon Q400 after landing in Seattle and asked - they can't hit them from the ground in Pullman, either) and anytime I'm flying out of there the IFR clearance is for my convenience, especially when I get to the we(s)t side of the state. Works fine and they've never complained.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
Say you're out at a remote airport. You filed via the internet, and called the 800 number for your clearance. You copy down the information, but told the briefer providing the clearance you would need time to get ready and would call back for your release.

Distractions occur, the grey matter gets a bit calcified, and you launch into the VFR conditions without obtaining the official release. Just as you press the PTT button, you realize what you did, and humbly talk to the controller anyway to get it figured out before entering the clouds and continuing on to your destiation.

This would be a learning experience for sure, but how annoyed would the controller be for that sector? Would you get off with just a scolding or be referred to the FSDO?
Click to expand...

If it's VFR and non-towered, I typically just pick up my clearance in the air, get a clearance and a code, and routing changes if any. Simplifies the process. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, most controllers actually prefer it that way.
 
TRocket said:
If it's VFR and non-towered, I typically just pick up my clearance in the air, get a clearance and a code, and routing changes if any. Simplifies the process. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, most controllers actually prefer it that way.
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It wasn't that big of a deal but I always preferred it. You're not shuting down the airfield and you don't have to block around that field for overflights. The clearance is a heck of a lot easier without all the "clearance void / when entering controlled airspace" stuff also.

But, if weather is iffy, just pick it up on the ground.
 
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TRocket said:
If it's VFR and non-towered, I typically just pick up my clearance in the air, get a clearance and a code, and routing changes if any. Simplifies the process. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, most controllers actually prefer it that way.
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I usually did. EXCEPT when it's marginal VFR and the pilot freaks out because he don't get the clearance right away because of traffic or is stuck under clouds AND the MVA/MIA and I gotta go through the whole "can you maintain your own obstruction clearance in the climb" boogie, and he ain't sure what I'm talking about. Then I wish he'd a got it on the ground.
 
Velocity173 said:
It wasn't that big of a deal but I always preferred it...
But, if weather is iffy, just pick it up on the ground.
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luvflyin said:
I usually did. EXCEPT when it's marginal VFR and the pilot freaks out because he don't get the clearance right away...
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Thanks for the insight guys, good to have some confirmation on this. As long as I can get started on my way under VFR I get it in the air, but like you guys said, if it's marginal I just call them on phone to be on the safe side.
 
luvflyin said:
I usually did. EXCEPT when it's marginal VFR and the pilot freaks out because he don't get the clearance right away because of traffic or is stuck under clouds AND the MVA/MIA and I gotta go through the whole "can you maintain your own obstruction clearance in the climb" boogie, and he ain't sure what I'm talking about. Then I wish he'd a got it on the ground.
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Lol! I've had that before as well. Like pulling teeth.
 
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