Raptor Aircraft

Racerx said:
So did he get a new OL or did he once again say "it's an experimental aircraft, I can do what I want!"...as referenced by him flying a west cross country at 4,000'
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It seems unlikely that he got a new OL since his response to Marc asking how he was able to leave the test area was that the DAR verbally told him that after he flew off 40 hours that he just needed to make a logbook entry and then he could fly wherever he wanted. If that's true, his DAR either doesn't know how a E/R&D airworthiness cert works or he didn't know it was an R&D and not an AB experimental aircraft. Either way, Peter is the one on the wrong side of it if the FAA decides to make an issue of it.

And Peter deleted those comments from his last video.
 
pilotrick said:
I know someone who has seen his ops limits and he said they were unusual and were more similar to amateur built category.
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donjohnston said:
Marc Zeitlin paid $10 for the documents on the plane which included the OL's. He said it's a typical E/R&D with no Phase I. So no leaving the test area without a new OL.
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I trust Marc.

Nauga,
who has a finely tuned BS detector
 
nauga said:
I trust Marc.

Nauga,
who has a finely tuned BS detector
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I trust nobody. And I hate both mysteries and unsolvable debates. I'll order a copy.
 
donjohnston said:
Here's the thing. We already know that his static port location is bad. He picks up at least 100' on the ground roll during takeoff. That will also equate to a higher indicated airspeed than actual. How much faster is he indicating? I don't know. But it's possible that he's only going 90kts over the threshold. I guess that also means his cruise speed could be slower than he thinks. Since he's never done any testing for that, we'll never know. But he's "okay with that".

As for large control inputs on final, either excess slop in the control system, poorly designed ailerons or poorly designed wing. Some early Velocity's had these kinds of problems, VG's were a common fix until they came up with a new wing design.

Here's my landing (skip to 19:30 for the landing). I'm about 5kts faster than normal in this one.

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Cool vid, thanks for sharing!

Didn't the wasabi guys(?) or at some point somewhere we learned that his control rigging did indeed have a lot of "slack" in it. I think his original vision was pushrods
 
Tantalum said:
Cool vid, thanks for sharing!

Didn't the wasabi guys(?) or at some point somewhere we learned that his control rigging did indeed have a lot of "slack" in it. I think his original vision was pushrods
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I can't say for sure. But at one of the pivot points it was causing the skin to flex so he added some (more) steel angle iron to correct that.
 
nauga said:
What took you so long? ;)

Nauga,
and the information airway
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We are nearly 5,000 posts into this thread. If everyone put in a penny per post, we could have bought this one plus 4 others by now. My generosity can be repaid in beer with payments due every time anyone sees me.


Lindberg said:
Once you have it, what will you do with the information?
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Wikileaks.
 
iamtheari said:
If everyone put in a penny per post, we could have bought this one plus 4 others by now.
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Who says someone hasn't already, or doesn't have access to someone else's copy? Ah, that 'trust no one' thingie. Yoyo.

Nauga,
who can lead a horse to water
 
nauga said:
Who says someone hasn't already, or doesn't have access to someone else's copy? Ah, that 'trust no one' thingie. Yoyo.

Nauga,
who can lead a horse to water
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I’ve seen posts summarizing the limitations. I haven’t found the actual PDF online.

-Thirsty Horse
 
iamtheari said:
I’ve seen posts summarizing the limitations. I haven’t found the actual PDF online.
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The summaries tend to contradict each other, as in the examples I quoted a few posts back. Spend *your* money or find someone who already has.

Who said anything about online?

Nauga,
a model of discretion
 
Tantalum said:
Cool vid, thanks for sharing!

Didn't the wasabi guys(?) or at some point somewhere we learned that his control rigging did indeed have a lot of "slack" in it. I think his original vision was pushrods
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There is still content on his website claiming pushrods. The cables have had a few different issues, including flex where pulleys are mounted to the airframe. That was all well-documented in the videos.
 
iamtheari said:
He mentioned the Boise area and Twin Falls. He said that he will stop short of there in Montana and the people he is working with will come get his suitcase and other stuff to lighten the plane for the hop over the mountains. I don’t know what route he is planning that even goes close to Montana. From 2A2 to KTWF, the direct line is through southern Wyoming. Of course, any route from AR to ID is going to require altitudes he hasn’t reached yet. And his windphobia will be a serious impediment. In Wyoming and Montana, they call 15 knots “calm” unless it’s gusting over 30.
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He is in for a very rude awakening. Crossing the Rockies is nothing like the "mountains" in Tennessee. And I say "mountains" because not long ago I was flying out east and someone told me to be careful of the terrain. What terrain?! I don't know much about Peter's background but I hope for his sake that he has flown in the real mountains enough to understand the consequences of taking an underperforming or less than prepared airplane through them.

I was in Idaho, Wyoming and Utah last week and some of my stops the DA was as high as 10,000 feet. Unreal.
 
Z06_Mir said:
He is in for a very rude awakening. Crossing the Rockies is nothing like the "mountains" in Tennessee. And I say "mountains" because not long ago I was flying out east and someone told me to be careful of the terrain. What terrain?! I don't know much about Peter's background but I hope for his sake that he has flown in the real mountains enough to understand the consequences of taking an underperforming or less than prepared airplane through them.

I was in Idaho, Wyoming and Utah last week and some of my stops the DA was as high as 10,000 feet. Unreal.
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I’ll just put this right here.

70E6EDFB-FB7A-460D-8475-A9B224948B05.jpeg
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Actually, I've known several people who did just that: flew forty, loaded up the plane with family, went places. Is there more required?
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There's a HUGE difference between a 40 hour phase I on an E/AB that have dozens if not hundreds of flying aircraft as opposed to a one-off E/R&D built by someone who doesn't have the vaguest idea of how to build or maintain a plane that's held together with duct tape and angle iron. Not to mention that the people flying the phase I on E/AB's are actually testing to see what the stall speed is.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Doesn’t look like he’s going far.

wait… are all the turns to the left?
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He made right traffic to land. I'm thinking he had some squawks from his flight to AR or his prior flight around the field in AR, fixed them, and wanted to do a test flight. I also thought he could have been testing the flight characteristics with his suitcase and full fuel tanks for the trip to ID, but he only went up to 4800 MSL so the usefulness of that test would run out somewhere in western KS.
 
On his latest video the comments are "This flight was to test the take off roll and climb performance with the gross weight about 50lbs heavier than I'd had it previously."

This seems the perfect thing to have done during his 40 hour phase 1 testing.
 
Tantalum said:
That's when you know things have gone real bad for me. It flew relatively stable, even hands off. There were several things in the video that were just too easy though so I didn't bother with it. He mentioned having to fly with the heat on to keep the engine oil under 240 so he cut a whole in the plane for extra vent for himself since it gets very hot in the cabin now. His parachute cover blew off one flight so he taped a random plastic panel onto it.. he still has the deathgrip on the sidestick on takeoff

But, it did apparently make it to 40 hours (so what, about 30 on the current engine) and it's flying relatively stable
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During his video Peter stated all deposit holders will have their money returned while maintaining their place in line at the introductory price. Wondering if he has other financial backers joining the project?

I'm impressed as an armature how far he's come with a clean sheet design. My life resume will not include "Flew off a clean sheet / built it myself aircraft". It's a nice looking plane with a cavernous interior. We all know the issues and missed promises which have played out in public.
 
iamtheari said:
I trust nobody. And I hate both mysteries and unsolvable debates. I'll order a copy.
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And the results are in...

There are two sets of operating limitations. The first set was dated 8/27/2019. It has a Phase 1 section requiring 50 hours and 50 landings, after which the plane could be operated within 1/2 of its range from its home base in Arkansas (provided it stayed within the continental USA and allowing an exception to fly farther for maintenance). No persons other than those essential to the flight could be carried. That set expired a year later on 8/27/2020.

The second set of operating limitations is dated 8/24/2020. They do not have a Phase 1 section. The testing locations are "25 NM radius of the Valdosta Regional Airport (KVLD) for the first 10 hours then a 50 NM radius of the Valdosta Regional Airport (KVLD) to allow expansion of the performance envelop. [sic]" The limitation on people not essential to the flight remains in place. The termination date line is not filled in.

His program letter is dated 6/9/2019 and appears to have been filed twice, once originally and once when the operating limitations were expiring. The program letter describes an initial flight testing period with an estimated 50 flight hours over 50 flights and a period of 1 year. The initial flight testing would be within 25nm of KVLD and "subsequent proving of systems and flight performance may take place within 50nm of Holley Mountain Airpark."

The flight test plan was described as "following the recommendations of AC90-89B in conjunction with using the EAA produced Flight Test Manual and Test cards that we have purchased from their online store." An outline of the proposed first 40 flight hours was included. The outline is 22 items and 3 pages long. Among other tests proposed there is a pitot-static calibration, minimum flying speed at 8000 AGL, Vx and Vy, Vbg, takeoff and landing performance at various weights, approach to accelerated stall of fore plane at 8000 AGL, various stability tests, and testing on portable oxygen from 8,000 upward at 2,000 foot intervals, up to FL250.
 
iamtheari said:
The second set of operating limitations is dated 8/24/2020. They do not have a Phase 1 section. The testing locations are "25 NM radius of the Valdosta Regional Airport (KVLD) for the first 10 hours then a 50 NM radius of the Valdosta Regional Airport (KVLD) to allow expansion of the performance envelop. [sic]" The limitation on people not essential to the flight remains in place. The termination date line is not filled in.

His program letter is dated 6/9/2019 and appears to have been filed twice, once originally and once when the operating limitations were expiring. The program letter describes an initial flight testing period with an estimated 50 flight hours over 50 flights and a period of 1 year. The initial flight testing would be within 25nm of KVLD and "subsequent proving of systems and flight performance may take place within 50nm of Holley Mountain Airpark."
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So he did in fact violate his operating limitations by leaving the 50-mile VLD radius. I don't believe the program letter's mention of testing at Holley Mountain has any effect on the operating limitations, but even if it did, that language doesn't cover the flight between VLD and Holley Mountain.

Now the question is whether he's still violating the limitations or he got them changed in the last couple weeks. Want to spend another $10 to find out?
 
NordicDave said:
During his video Peter stated all deposit holders will have their money returned while maintaining their place in line at the introductory price.
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You sure about that? I don't remember the part about "at the introductory price" but I can't force myself to watch it again to find out. Seems highly likely the price is going up.
 
231TC said:
You sure about that? I don't remember the part about "at the introductory price" but I can't force myself to watch it again to find out. Seems highly likely the price is going up.
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Raptor hasnt technically been introduced yet so the introductory price is still up in the air.
 
iamtheari said:
And the results are in...

There are two sets of operating limitations. The first set was dated 8/27/2019. It has a Phase 1 section requiring 50 hours and 50 landings, after which the plane could be operated within 1/2 of its range from its home base in Arkansas (provided it stayed within the continental USA and allowing an exception to fly farther for maintenance). No persons other than those essential to the flight could be carried. That set expired a year later on 8/27/2020.

The second set of operating limitations is dated 8/24/2020. They do not have a Phase 1 section. The testing locations are "25 NM radius of the Valdosta Regional Airport (KVLD) for the first 10 hours then a 50 NM radius of the Valdosta Regional Airport (KVLD) to allow expansion of the performance envelop. [sic]" The limitation on people not essential to the flight remains in place. The termination date line is not filled in.

His program letter is dated 6/9/2019 and appears to have been filed twice, once originally and once when the operating limitations were expiring. The program letter describes an initial flight testing period with an estimated 50 flight hours over 50 flights and a period of 1 year. The initial flight testing would be within 25nm of KVLD and "subsequent proving of systems and flight performance may take place within 50nm of Holley Mountain Airpark."

The flight test plan was described as "following the recommendations of AC90-89B in conjunction with using the EAA produced Flight Test Manual and Test cards that we have purchased from their online store." An outline of the proposed first 40 flight hours was included. The outline is 22 items and 3 pages long. Among other tests proposed there is a pitot-static calibration, minimum flying speed at 8000 AGL, Vx and Vy, Vbg, takeoff and landing performance at various weights, approach to accelerated stall of fore plane at 8000 AGL, various stability tests, and testing on portable oxygen from 8,000 upward at 2,000 foot intervals, up to FL250.
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Where do I send my portion of 10 bucks for that?
 
231TC said:
You sure about that? I don't remember the part about "at the introductory price" but I can't force myself to watch it again to find out. Seems highly likely the price is going up.
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Peter said this is his last video for a while until the new company starts production. Also deposits will be returned by the new company while "maintaining their discounted aircraft pricing and position in line".

Specifics are at 24:18 mark:

Is it just me or does he take a long time to rotate? 40:37 mark
 
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NordicDave said:
I'm impressed as an armature how far he's come with a clean sheet design. My life resume will not include "Flew off a clean sheet / built it myself aircraft". It's a nice looking plane with a cavernous interior. We all know the issues and missed promises which have played out in public.
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Peter is his own worst enemy unfortunately..
 
Canard's don't really "rotate". They basically fly off the runway. On my Velocity, at a long runway, I won't apply any backpressure on the stick. And even on short runways, I'll just give a quick tug and then it's off.

As for how long it takes to get off the runway, he's got no idea what speed the canard stalls at, the runway is at 1,200' MSL and it's hot. I'm impressed it gets off the ground at all given how much it weighs.
 
NordicDave said:
Peter said this is his last video for a while until the new company starts production. Also deposits will be returned by the new company while "maintaining their discounted aircraft pricing and position in line".

Specifics are at 24:18 mark:

Is it just me or does he take a long time to rotate? 40:37 mark
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Thanks. I missed or forgot that part. He's talking about the bigger deposits there, the $20k ones. Near the end he mentions everyone with the smaller deposits, no mention there of the price for them, though.
 
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