Raptor Aircraft

kyleb said:
Patey would be well served to start with a gas can and a match. Nothing on the Raptor appears worth saving. The drivetrain is a mess, the aero is a mess, the weight is crazy high, the gear is too short, the pressure vessel didn’t work. What’s left?
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Salty said:
I'm not sure why someone like Patey would have any desire to get involved with something like this. What's in it for him?
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Because he's an all-around great creator who jumps at the chance to make super cool stuff, whether or not it's particularly economical. Not just for himself but to push GA forward as a whole.

Is the project worth it in its current state? Hell no, it's a dumpster fire and I totally understand wanting nothing to do with it.

I just think it'd be cool so see MP stroll up, CAD/mold/carbon-fiber a few ingenious parts, chant "back to work" a few times, and get this otherwise neat-looking concept in the air. Cause that's just what he does. lol.
 
Someone posted a little bit of the behind-the-scenes design process on YouTube.

 
I’ve been checking out Velocity social media pages at their current offerings. I see no benefit of the Raptor over a Velocity, in fact the Velocity at this time seems so far superior I don’t see how Peter stands a chance catch up to set it apart.
 
Not in front of a computer otherwise I'd copy and paste. But velocity gave a very lengthy reply on youtube of Peter's last vid. They seem very generous in offering advice, possible causes and solutions. They offered to take him up in a velocity to feel the difference of a canard.
 
Racerx said:
Not in front of a computer otherwise I'd copy and paste. But velocity gave a very lengthy reply on youtube of Peter's last vid. They seem very generous in offering advice, possible causes and solutions. They offered to take him up in a velocity to feel the difference of a canard.
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Wow, this is indeed a very friendly and helpful response:

Velocity Aircraft2
It looks to me like the plane is nibbling at a canard stall at least in the pitch oscillations. Could be gap related or just that it needs a little more speed to come out of it. I remember when some Long Ezes as well as the Velocity had a premature very light pitch buck at about 80 to 85 knots that actually went away at a slower speed. In bumpy air, you wouldn't even notice it. Danny added a leading edge cuff on the elevator to help the situation and keep it from happening. Because of differences in builder installation of these, rotation speeds where all over the place so I removed them. With slight changes in elevator gap, this situation was fixed. I am sure if you had your temps in check you could have increased speed by 10 knots or so to see if goes away. Still would have to be addressed but at least you would know. So, before the next flight, I would tuft the canard and let them overlap the elevators so you can see what the air is doing over them. If you see them move sideways when the oscillation occurs then you can be pretty sure it will go away with a little more speed. You might be able to fix it in the short term with some VGs but if you use them, start with a few sets first with tufts behind them and on each side so you can see what the results are. Also, you would want to add some to the main wing as well so you don't change your center of lift too much and get yourself in trouble. Since you have blended winglets, I doubt you have any intersection problems and in Yaw, it looks very good with that ball hardly moving, even with a short flight. Not sure if you had any inputs with the rudders but I would guess not. I noticed that the left aileron was always up somewhat and did move with the roll oscillations. I would make sure that your leverage on the roll push rods with relation to the bell-crank on the aileron is such that you don't have some flexing going on that allows unintended movements especially during the pitch oscillations. As the loading changes on the canard and wings, the loading on the control surfaces does as well and could make the situation worse. I could say much more in trying to help and will if you want. Having done many first flights, I know how crazy that first flight can be and I have never test flown a new design so hats off to you. You were very calm and that is exactly how you need to be. Congratulation and be as safe as you can be when doing these things. As I said, I am here if you need me, even for a quick call. Always happy to help. Scott
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Smart marketing. Those who were into the raptor and just had the scales fall from their eyes after watching that flight -- I bet they'll be looking really hard at a Velocity kit now.
 
iamtheari said:
It makes me want to buy a Velocity kit.
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schmookeeg said:
Smart marketing. Those who were into the raptor and just had the scales fall from their eyes after watching that flight -- I bet they'll be looking really hard at a Velocity kit now.
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Haha, I was thinking the same, but feel that they honestly want to help him out. The other thing is that few people would want to see a fellow aviator kill himself.

Actually, I myself have again become interested in Velocities: Not only because of their response but also because @donjohnston believably claimed that a Velocity can be completed within their estimated built times.
 
I seriously considered replacing my Mooney with a velocity. If I could have one built tomorrow with my specs I probably would. Can’t really justify it though.
 
German guy said:
Haha, I was thinking the same, but feel that they honestly want to help him out. The other thing is that few people would want to see a fellow aviator kill himself.

Actually, I myself have again become interested in Velocities: Not only because of their response but also because @donjohnston believably claimed that a Velocity can be completed within their estimated built times.
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There are about 4 Velocity's in the Detroit area and few more between Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids. If you want, I'll send your contact info to them. I'm sure a couple would be more than happy to give you a tour.
 
German guy said:
Haha, I was thinking the same, but feel that they honestly want to help him out. The other thing is that few people would want to see a fellow aviator kill himself.

Actually, I myself have again become interested in Velocities: Not only because of their response but also because @donjohnston believably claimed that a Velocity can be completed within their estimated built times.
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Ya, the V twin is on my E-AB "hmmmmm" list, right at the top.

I hate that center channel. I could probably learn to love it eventually, but I'm not there yet.

Of course... the V twin could use pressurization and Jet-A too... hmmm
 
Salty said:
I seriously considered replacing my Mooney with a velocity. If I could have one built tomorrow with my specs I probably would. Can’t really justify it though.
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You're gonna try to justify any of this craziness we call GA?
 
If the Raptor actually met its specs, then it would be far superior to a comparable Velocity TXL. The Raptor has a larger cabin. It’s cruise speed is 50 kts faster. It’s pressurized. It has deice. It has a BRS. $130K for a Raptor vs $250K for an TXL. All other numbers are similar. The question is, will the Raptor come close to those specs?
 
kyleb said:
You're gonna try to justify any of this craziness we call GA?
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Good point. But trading a Mooney and another $100,000 to gain 20 knots and some cool factor is crazy beyond my ability to ignore it ;)
 
schmookeeg said:
Ya, the V twin is on my E-AB "hmmmmm" list, right at the top.

I hate that center channel. I could probably learn to love it eventually, but I'm not there yet.

Of course... the V twin could use pressurization and Jet-A too... hmmm
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There’s a turboprop V-Twin that’s almost complete. There’s a turboprop XL that’s already flying and was recently for sale.
 
Velocity173 said:
If the Raptor actually met its specs, then it would be far superior to a comparable Velocity TXL. The Raptor has a larger cabin. It’s cruise speed is 50 kts faster. It’s pressurized. It has deice. It has a BRS. $130K for a Raptor vs $250K for an TXL. All other numbers are similar. The question is, will the Raptor come close to those specs?
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And there are the red flags. Larger cabin, but 50 kts fast. Pressurized and de-iced for half the price. Real easy to make up specs and promises. A lot harder to keep them. Physics only go so far.
 
Velocity173 said:
If the Raptor actually met its specs, then it would be far superior to a comparable Velocity TXL. The Raptor has a larger cabin. It’s cruise speed is 50 kts faster. It’s pressurized. It has deice. It has a BRS. $130K for a Raptor vs $250K for an TXL. All other numbers are similar. The question is, will the Raptor come close to those specs?
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Start with this claim:
"The Raptor is an extremely spacious 5 place, pressurized, composite aircraft with a 62" wide cabin with a possible top speed of 300 knots that can cruise at 230 knots true on 7 gph of Diesel or Jet-A".

7 gallons of jet or Diesel fuel is about 48 pounds. Looking at the brake specific fuel consumption chart on Wikipedia, a good number for the SFC of a Diesel engine is about .33 pounds of fuel per horsepower per hours. 48 divided by .33 is 145 horsepower on 7 GPH. Push that large airplane at 230 knots on 150 hp?
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This fellow has no grasp of reality. People have become used to the rate of technological change in electronics and sometimes can be fooled into believing that there are giant leaps available in the physical world as well, but there are not. People have been building engines and airplanes for more than a century now, and small incremental improvements are all that are left.

The promoters of the Otto airplane have made equally unrealistic claims.
 
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FormerHangie said:
Start with this claim:...
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I'd start with the premise that there will be a few hundred or even a few thousand Audi 3.0L turbodiesel engines just sitting around in junkyards (but in pristine condition), ready to convert to this application at a low price. That's unrealistic at best.
 
kyleb said:
I'd start with the premise that there will be a few hundred or even a few thousand Audi 3.0L turbodiesel engines just sitting around in junkyards (but in pristine condition), ready to convert to this application at a low price. That's unrealistic at best.
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They're actually way more reasonably priced and available than I expected. Car-parts.com lists about 40 available on the recycled market nationwide with the most expensive listed at $6k with 30k miles.
 
I have one of those twin turbo torquemonsters in my Toureg and it can most definitely be tuned for well over 400 HP and 1000 torques.
 
IK04 said:
I have one of those twin turbo torquemonsters in my Toureg and it can most definitely be tuned for well over 400 HP and 1000 torques.
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Different engine than Peter's. The BiTDI 3.0 V6 never came in the Toureg
 
IK04 said:
...Maybe not in your Toureg! (hint hint!)
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Ahha awesome.. I've got an Audi TT (Twin Turbo- not a TT the car) 4.0 V8 with bigger turbos in my "family sedan" so I know what you're getting at!
 
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250 degree oil temp on the ground run up? Pushers run a little warm on the ground vs tractor config but no where near 250 degrees.

 
Velocity173 said:
250 degree oil temp on the ground run up? Pushers run a little warm on the ground vs tractor config but no where near 250 degrees.
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I have no pusher knowledge, but I generally have to wait at the "go" line for a few minutes, even in warm weather to get the oil temp to 100F in the RV. Dude was at what? (150+) in an expedited effort to launch for the first flight. He's got a lotta problems and instead of fixing them, he's applying another box of bandaids.
 
The idiocy knows no bounds.. his solution to the hot oil temps..? Put two 2.5 gallon tanks of coolant in the nose so that it takes longer for the coolant to get up to temp.. for a moment I thought he was going to install an air scoop up there and put another radiator period but nope, just add 50 lb to the nose.. although he seems quite confident that will let him get to 1000 agl
 
Tantalum said:
The idiocy knows no bounds.. his solution to the hot oil temps..? Put two 2.5 gallon tanks of coolant in the nose so that it takes longer for the coolant to get up to temp.. for a moment I thought he was going to install an air scoop up there and put another radiator period but nope, just add 50 lb to the nose.. although he seems quite confident that will let him get to 1000 agl
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Just a disaster. I hope he has put more effort into engineering his BRS installation than he's spent engineering the rest of this thing. This is life and death stuff and he's half assing it.
 
Velocity173 said:
250 degree oil temp on the ground run up? Pushers run a little warm on the ground vs tractor config but no where near 250 degrees.

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Good grief. The ability of him to ignore solutions that are staring him in the face, while simultaneously coming up with Rube Goldberg “solutions” that aren’t is amazing.

His cooling issue “solution” of the two nose tanks, besides the obvious (adding weight to a pig) is the coolant equivalent of putting twice as much air in your tire without fixing the hole.
 
kyleb said:
I have no pusher knowledge, but I generally have to wait at the "go" line for a few minutes, even in warm weather to get the oil temp to 100F in the RV. Dude was at what? (150+) in an expedited effort to launch for the first flight. He's got a lotta problems and instead of fixing them, he's applying another box of bandaids.
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I truly believe he has a mental issue. It appears that his desire to be right (and/or prove naysayers wrong) is so deep, that he will avoid his own safety to prove it. It’s sad, really.
 
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Omalley1537 said:
His cooling issue “solution” of the two nose tanks, besides the obvious (adding weight to a pig) is the coolant equivalent of putting twice as much air in your tire without fixing the hole.
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That just cost me about a half ounce of quality single malt out my nose. Crying while laughing now.
 
Omalley1537 said:
Good grief. The ability of him to ignore solutions that are staring him in the face, while simultaneously coming up with Rube Goldberg “solutions” that aren’t is amazing.

His cooling issue “solution” of the two nose tanks, besides the obvious (adding weight to a pig) is the coolant equivalent of putting twice as much air in your tire without fixing the hole.
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That is why this airplane is doomed. It's already 1,000 lbs overweight, and his solution to every problem adds more! That is what makes a good aeronautical engineer, being able to create something that can function reliably at the lowest weight. Any fool could design a plane if weight didn't matter.

By the time he gets all the airframe kinks out, he will need 1,000 hp to make it fly, which will create more heat, and create more problems. It's a never ending cycle.
 
Tantalum said:
The idiocy knows no bounds.. his solution to the hot oil temps..? Put two 2.5 gallon tanks of coolant in the nose so that it takes longer for the coolant to get up to temp.. for a moment I thought he was going to install an air scoop up there and put another radiator period but nope, just add 50 lb to the nose.. although he seems quite confident that will let him get to 1000 agl
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No way, it's genius. You don't need the same amount of spare coolant if you're only going 3,000 AGL vs 12,000.

He can put a tank in the nose and have gradiated markings for 2,000 feet of climb, 4,000, 6,000, etc. You can put in as much Prestone as you need for the day's flight, and SAVE the useful load that would otherwise go to wasted and unused cooling capacity.

From what I am seeing, he won't need coolant tank markings over 6,000, and even the 4 and 6 seem only theoretical at this point. :eek:
 
midwestpa24 said:
That is why this airplane is doomed. It's already 1,000 lbs overweight, and his solution to every problem adds more! That is what makes a good aeronautical engineer, being able to create something that can function reliably at the lowest weight. Any fool could design a plane if weight didn't matter.

By the time he gets all the airframe kinks out, he will need 1,000 hp to make it fly, which will create more heat, and create more problems. It's a never ending cycle.
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On the plus side, it could become the roomiest single seater on the market.
 
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