[rant]Cage free eggs[rant]

[RJM62]

You have a wonderful way with words.

Thank you. I also had a nice bottle of Merlot that helped things along.

It is interesting to note that genomic studies have now shown that chickens are really just modern dinosaurs. The challenge of getting them to perform is interesting and rewarding. I really love what I get to do.

Having said that, I think farmers have a few key responsibilities.

1. We must care for our animals in a way that ensures the five freedoms as interpreted by advisors from science and academia.

• Freedom from hunger or thirst by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour
• Freedom from discomfort by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area
• Freedom from pain, injury or disease by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment
• Freedom to express (most) normal behaviour by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind
• Freedom from fear and distress by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering

2. We must provide a product that is safe to eat.

3. We must be sustainable. Environmentally, legally, financially, etc.


I think the vast majority of farmers would completely agree. Unfortunately we have failed to effectively communicate the how and why of this to society at large. Instead we get Sarah McLachlan singing with pictures of puppies in the background defining the message that we are all cruel profiteers.

That code of ethics seems perfectly sane to me. There's no need for cruelty in farming. Farmers can be humane AND productive. But too many people anthropomorphize livestock and assume that all species like the same things that humans do.

Rich

 

[Everskyward]

That code of ethics seems perfectly sane to me. There's no need for cruelty in farming. Farmers can be humane AND productive. But too many people anthropomorphize livestock and assume that all species like the same things that humans do.

Agree, but the egg industry needs to get the message out because there are plenty of people like you-in-the-past and me, who have never been around chickens, and don't have a clue what they "like" or what is best for them.

 

[Ted]

It's all about control! If I want cage free eggs, I can buy them, if I want "heart healthy eggs" whatever that is, I can buy them, if I want an 18 pack of large eggs on sale, I should be able to buy them as well. You have to understand these do gooders are only helping us stupid mortals that don't know what to eat! Don't discount that the money behind the mandate may well be the producers of cage free eggs!!

Right. We buy organic eggs, but we find they taste better. We'd really like having our own chickens as those are the best eggs we've had, but it hasn't happened yet.

But that's our choice. Likewise, everyone else should be allowed to make their choices.

 

[Ted]

Agree, but the egg industry needs to get the message out because there are plenty of people like you-in-the-past and me, who have never been around chickens, and don't have a clue what they "like" or what is best for them.

Chickens never reach self-actualization on the hierarchy of needs.

 

[Everskyward]

Chickens never reach self-actualization on the hierarchy of needs.

You mean there's no alpha chicken.

 

[Sac Arrow]

They just haven't crossed that road yet.

 

[Ted]

You mean there's no alpha chicken.

The alpha is when Eggman puts on his chicken suit and walks around the hen house.

 

[flyingron]

Mostly they seem to have some starlet who I have no idea who she is telling me how she can't endure another whacking day or the like. It's usually sign to find a different channel to watch. That and the bloody wounded warrior project commercials.

 

[Everskyward]

Mostly they seem to have some starlet who I have no idea who she is telling me how she can't endure another whacking day or the like. It's usually sign to find a different channel to watch. That and the bloody wounded warrior project commercials.

If you read Eggman's link, you'll see the Humane Society of the United States is behind it, and the guy speaking is no starlet. The thing is that a huge proportion of the population, including me, has never been involved in raising animals for consumption, so the whole process is foreign. I believe what Eggman writes, but you don't often hear that side of the story. Also, when the two sides are pitted against each other, it's somewhat easier not to believe the producer, since they have a larger financial stake in the outcome and might have more incentive to be less than straightforward. Think about what you read about any large industry and the public's reaction, especially when they are not involved in that particular industry.

 

[JGoodish]

Agree, but the egg industry needs to get the message out because there are plenty of people like you-in-the-past and me, who have never been around chickens, and don't have a clue what they "like" or what is best for them.

As a consumer, this really isn't my problem, just like it isn't my problem whether iPhones are assembled by eight year olds in China. It's up to producers to determine what to bring to market, and how to do it in a way that results in a sustainable business. Even if I could trace the supply chain of everything that I buy, it is unlikely that I or anyone else would develop adequate expertise throughout the supply chain such that I could determine what is best. I rely on the producers to do that, because it is in their own best interests.

Industry unfortunately tends to fall back on lobbying politicians rather than better marketing to consumers. There will always be activists with their own agendas, or low-information consumers who want an emotional cause on which to cling, but fortunately I think that most industries do a pretty good job of providing safe, high-quality products.


JKG

 

[Everskyward]

As a consumer, this really isn't my problem, just like it isn't my problem whether iPhones are assembled by eight year olds in China. It's up to producers to determine what to bring to market, and how to do it in a way that results in a sustainable business. Even if I could trace the supply chain of everything that I buy, it is unlikely that I or anyone else would develop adequate expertise throughout the supply chain such that I could determine what is best. I rely on the producers to do that, because it is in their own best interests.

It isn't your problem, but it's a problem for the producers when the tide of public opinion goes against them.

 

[JGoodish]

It isn't your problem, but it's a problem for the producers when the tide of public opinion goes against them.

As a consumer, I guess I'm not seeing a "tide of public opinion against" the egg industry, at least here in my part of the country. I'm sure that JT has a more comprehensive view, which I would be interested to hear.


JKG

 

[JGoodish]

It isn't your problem, but it's a problem for the producers when the tide of public opinion goes against them.

Separately, the waxing and waning tides of public opinion do not necessarily translate into proportional (or even substantial) shifts in consumer behavior. Much of the nonsense that large corporations chase these days has nil effect (or close to it) on consumer behavior.


JKG

 

[Everskyward]

Separately, the waxing and waning tides of public opinion do not necessarily translate into proportional (or even substantial) shifts in consumer behavior. Much of the nonsense that large corporations chase these days has nil effect (or close to it) on consumer behavior.

When I read that McDonalds is going to require cage-free eggs in the future, the only thing that I can come up with is that they think that fact will attract customers, or at least not drive them away to other restaurants which serve cage-free eggs.

 

[RJM62]

If you read Eggman's link, you'll see the Humane Society of the United States is behind it, and the guy speaking is no starlet. The thing is that a huge proportion of the population, including me, has never been involved in raising animals for consumption, so the whole process is foreign. I believe what Eggman writes, but you don't often hear that side of the story. Also, when the two sides are pitted against each other, it's somewhat easier not to believe the producer, since they have a larger financial stake in the outcome and might have more incentive to be less than straightforward. Think about what you read about any large industry and the public's reaction, especially when they are not involved in that particular industry.

I know a lot of people feel that way, and it may be true in some industries, but I think livestock farmers would be a notable exception (especially egg farmers and dairy farmers, for whom the animal's product, not the animal itself, is the commodity).

I mean, think about it. James' own income is tied up in the health and well-being of his chickens. Look what he just went through with the avian flu. Does anyone have more motivation to make sure his chickens are healthy than James does? Dead hens don't lay eggs.

Also, although I don't know a blessed thing about chicken health, I do know that health and being stressed out don't go hand in hand for most animals. If I had to take a wild guess, it would be that stress isn't good for chickens, either; so it would be in an egg farmer's best interest to try to make his or her chickens' lives as stress-free as possible.

Rich

 

[Everskyward]

I know a lot of people feel that way, and it may be true in some industries, but I think livestock farmers would be a notable exception (especially egg farmers and dairy farmers, for whom the animal's product, not the animal itself, is the commodity).

I mean, think about it. James' own income is tied up in the health and well-being of his chickens. Look what he just went through with the avian flu. Does anyone have more motivation to make sure his chickens are healthy than James does? Dead hens don't lay eggs.

Also, although I don't know a blessed thing about chicken health, I do know that health and being stressed out don't go hand in hand for most animals. If I had to take a wild guess, it would be that stress isn't good for chickens, either; so it would be in an egg farmer's best interest to try to make his or her chickens' lives as stress-free as possible.

Rich

I can agree with that.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Have there ever been decent studies done to determine if organic/free-range/63'-Buick eggs are of any different quality/nutrition/organoleptics than grocery store eggs?
(this would be a large, blinded, controlled study to significance, which is then repeatable)
I am having doubts there is much difference and wonder if that whole thing is a marketing ploy directed at the gulliible among us.

 

[JGoodish]

When I read that McDonalds is going to require cage-free eggs in the future, the only thing that I can come up with is that they think that fact will attract customers, or at least not drive them away to other restaurants which serve cage-free eggs.

In that case, I expect it to work about as well as all the other food fads they've been chasing over the past several years, which have all pretty much worked to wreck the company. I suspect that the type of customer who cares about cage-free eggs is not the type of customer who will be attracted to McDonald's, regardless of how freely the chickens roam or how "progressive" their burgers feel.


JKG

 

[Mason]

In that case, I expect it to work about as well as all the other food fads they've been chasing over the past several years, which have all pretty much worked to wreck the company. I suspect that the type of customer who cares about cage-free eggs is not the type of customer who will be attracted to McDonald's, regardless of how freely the chickens roam or how "progressive" their burgers feel.


JKG

Yeah, some time ago someone accused them of using trans-fats to make their fries, so they changed the oil and the fries are nowhere near as good.

 

[Everskyward]

In that case, I expect it to work about as well as all the other food fads they've been chasing over the past several years, which have all pretty much worked to wreck the company. I suspect that the type of customer who cares about cage-free eggs is not the type of customer who will be attracted to McDonald's, regardless of how freely the chickens roam or how "progressive" their burgers feel.





JKG

Interestingly I read within the past few days that McDonald's stock is close to its all-time high even as other stocks are down. So I wouldn't say the company is "wrecked".

 

[Sundancer]

I don't buy organic or free range, nor do I avoid GMO. . .and chicken self-actualization is way down my list of topics of concern.

Lost chicken respect decades ago - my uncle had a large, affable, and tolerant dog, of mixed heritage; that dog walked past/through the chickens multiple times a day, to the spring at the back of the yard, which perked down from the hillside.

I witnesed an unprovoked attack on that dog, by a chicken, which lasted several milliseconds, and ended on my plate that evening . . .what triggered a suicidal assault on an apex predator, likely 15 times heavier than that chicken? Territorial imperative? Psychosis? I think it was pure, distilled, concentrated stupidity.

 

[flyingron]

If you read Eggman's link, you'll see the Humane Society of the United States is behind it, and the guy speaking is no starlet.

You aren't watching the same commercial. The person speaking ain't no guy.
I'm not arguing that the HSUS plays on the poor cute animal sympathy and uses their money primarily to litigate and browbeat the food industry, I was just describing one of their commercials.

If God didn't want us to eat animals they wouldn't have given us incisors. I do try to stay away from antibiotic-raised stuff though.

 

[jsstevens]

Choice is good.

 

[James_Dean]

Have there ever been decent studies done to determine if organic/free-range/63'-Buick eggs are of any different quality/nutrition/organoleptics than grocery store eggs?
(this would be a large, blinded, controlled study to significance, which is then repeatable)
I am having doubts there is much difference and wonder if that whole thing is a marketing ploy directed at the gulliible among us.

Not "scientific", but...

http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/08/...mega-3s-grocery-store-brand-the-food-lab.html

 

[Becky]

Yeah, some time ago someone accused them of using trans-fats to make their fries, so they changed the oil and the fries are nowhere near as good.

You are probably thinking of the ban on the beef fat they originally used. They switched to transfats, then it was discovered that transfats were evil and beef fat was better for you. Same thing happened with the coconut oil used in movie theater popcorn. Turns out coconut oil is better for you than transfats, too.

Your tax dollars at work! Just trust the CSPI. They know what is good for you. Until they know it isn't.

 

[Everskyward]

You aren't watching the same commercial. The person speaking ain't no guy.
I'm not arguing that the HSUS plays on the poor cute animal sympathy and uses their money primarily to litigate and browbeat the food industry, I was just describing one of their commercials.

OK. My point was that it isn't just some ditsy actress who is speaking out on this. There is a serious movement to go cage-free.

If God didn't want us to eat animals they wouldn't have given us incisors. I do try to stay away from antibiotic-raised stuff though.

Funny, I like eggs a lot more now than I did when I was kid and was forced to eat them. And whenever I crack open an egg I think of this thread.

 

[denverpilot]

Whole bunch of free range chickens on Grand Cayman. Imported and got loose decades ago of course.

Chickens and Iguanas are the only wildlife. As common as pigeons and as much of a pest according to the locals.

 

[flyingron]

I think the primary wildlife of Key West is chickens and cats.

 

[denverpilot]

I think the primary wildlife of Key West is chickens and cats.

Some of the cats are the six-toed variety in KW, of course. I wonder if Hemingway really cared that much about them that they'd become a minor cult figure.

 

[CharlieTango]

Unless an egg contains at least 350 mg of Omega-3, it is basically a worthless egg. Generally speaking eggs will have about 660 mg of Omega-6 so anything less than 350 mg of Omega-3s per egg leads to a large Omega-3 deficit that is difficult to overcome in the daily diet.

...

In addition to Christopher Egg, there are some other brand name eggs that advertise added Omega-3s. Both Great Day Naturals and LAND O LAKES™ offer "All Natural Omega-3 Eggs" and/or "All-Natural Eggs with Omega-3." These eggs are also found in many outlets around the nation. In both cases each egg contains 350 mg of Omega-3 and about 660 mg of Omega-6 fatty acids. That's a balance of 2:1 which, while not as beneficial as 1:1, is still much better than conventional eggs. - See more at: https://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-meat-education/eggs-too#sthash.pSLNSlFb.dpuf

 

[James_Dean]

Unless an egg contains at least 350 mg of Omega-3, it is basically a worthless egg. Generally speaking eggs will have about 660 mg of Omega-6 so anything less than 350 mg of Omega-3s per egg leads to a large Omega-3 deficit that is difficult to overcome in the daily diet.

...

In addition to Christopher Egg, there are some other brand name eggs that advertise added Omega-3s. Both Great Day Naturals and LAND O LAKES™ offer "All Natural Omega-3 Eggs" and/or "All-Natural Eggs with Omega-3." These eggs are also found in many outlets around the nation. In both cases each egg contains 350 mg of Omega-3 and about 660 mg of Omega-6 fatty acids. That's a balance of 2:1 which, while not as beneficial as 1:1, is still much better than conventional eggs. - See more at: https://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-meat-education/eggs-too#sthash.pSLNSlFb.dpuf

Best practice is to limit your daily intake of omega6 to under 2% of your calories. One egg is approximately 1.1-1.3% omega 6 fats and 80 calories or, about 1 calorie of omega6 per egg of your allowed 40 calories per day.

While it is true that the hens diet can be modified to increase omega3 and that is beneficial for your health it is complete bunk to call a natural egg worthless(unless you are trying to sell a very expensive egg).


You would be FAR better off just eating high omega3 fish three times a week than spending money on expensive eggs of dubious overall benefit.

 

[James_Dean]

Whole bunch of free range chickens on Grand Cayman. Imported and got loose decades ago of course.

Chickens and Iguanas are the only wildlife. As common as pigeons and as much of a pest according to the locals.

The biosecurity concerns make me ill.

 

[RJM62]

Since we're talking about chickens...

Chicken cacciatore.

Rich

 

[Norman]

There's chicken in there? Can't tell for the sauce.

 

[CharlieTango]

You would be FAR better off just eating high omega3 fish three times a week than spending money on expensive eggs of dubious overall benefit.

Some of us look for an omega3/omega6 ratio that is close to 1:1 like in grass fed beef. I say its better to have all your long chain fats balanced.

I get expensive eggs for the same reason that I get expensive grass fed meats, expensive omega3 pork, and expensive line caught wild fish and even grass fed butter.

Its much better to eat balanced than to try and fix it all with fish.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Since we're talking about chickens...

Chicken cacciatore.

Rich

Those are either enormous noodles, or you're eating a thimble sized portion.

 

[RJM62]

Those are either enormous noodles, or you're eating a thimble sized portion.

The latter. I'm watching carbs. That meal was a rare treat for me.

The noodles are high-fiber ones that have lower "net carbs" and a lower glycemic index than the usual ones. But still.

Rich

 

[N801BH]

I don't buy organic or free range, nor do I avoid GMO. . .and chicken self-actualization is way down my list of topics of concern.

Lost chicken respect decades ago - my uncle had a large, affable, and tolerant dog, of mixed heritage; that dog walked past/through the chickens multiple times a day, to the spring at the back of the yard, which perked down from the hillside.

I witnesed an unprovoked attack on that dog, by a chicken, which lasted several milliseconds, and ended on my plate that evening . . .what triggered a suicidal assault on an apex predator, likely 15 times heavier than that chicken? Territorial imperative? Psychosis? I think it was pure, distilled, concentrated stupidity.

Was the initials of that chicken,, BHO......

Oh, by the way... BHO = Big Hen Organizer...

 

[Norman]

Speaking of chicken stupidity, I once watched a rooster try to land in the hog pen. Feet never touched the ground and the boar had a fresh chicken dinner. Feathers and all, he ate everything but the squawk.

 

[denverpilot]

Speaking of chicken stupidity, I once watched a rooster try to land in the hog pen. Feet never touched the ground and the boar had a fresh chicken dinner. Feathers and all, he ate everything but the squawk.

Having worked a pig farm, absolutely no surprise here. The sows were stupid but rarely mean, but the boar was always vicious.

Nothing like fresh Rocky Mountain oyster day on the pig farm, though. Haha. Not kidding. Not a fun day for anyone squeamish though.

Probably not a real fun day for the young males either, but I never stopped working long enough to ask them.