[rant]Cage free eggs[rant]

Re: Eggman/ James..

WOW sorry to hear about your problems. Glad it is getting better.
 
Re: Eggman/ James..

Don't want this to turn political, but we were fortunate that we are of a size and scope that we have the ability to communicate with our representatives in congress and were able to be part of dialogue at the highest levels. At times we had to swing a hammer and go heavy to solve problems. I can't imagine being a small farmer that was impacted by this. I know that some of the turkey farmers that were on contract to the big integrator are just getting flat screwed.

I found myself in meetings that were some pretty tall cotton for this egg farmer. I'm not boasting here and would've happily not had to have this meeting, but it was an experience. I walked in expecting to be in the corner and found this.
 

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Re: Eggman/ James..

Many thanks for a very interesting look into a business few ever see. I assume we're talking about H1N1?
 
Re: Eggman/ James..

steingar said:
Many thanks for a very interesting look into a business few ever see. I assume we're talking about H1N1?
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Latest outbreak was primarily H5N2 with a little H5N8 thrown in for funsies.
 
N801BH said:
Thanks Sac for the bump.....


What is the status of Turkeys and their prices now that Thanksgiving is right around the corner?:dunno:
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Most turkey sites have now been repopulated, but the supply dent is significant. I've seen estimates as high as 5% annual production lost. The turkey business is a little different than eggs in that they have a huge demand at Thanksgiving and as such have to rely on frozen storage to meet the demand. This tempers any "shocks" to the system, however expect to pay +20% more this year than last.
 
Re: Eggman/ James..

James_Dean said:
The only thing that stopped it was temperature outside. As soon as it got hot enough the virus lost it's ability to exist for any time away from a host.
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Now that it is getting colder again, is there a possibility that it will return?
 
Re: Eggman/ James..

James_Dean said:
You know the old saw about "how could the government spend $800 on a hammer"? Well, I found out. The process is simply mind blowing.
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Work as a fed contractor long enough and you realize that sometimes $800 for a hammer is bargain pricing.

:mad2:
 
Re: Eggman/ James..

N801BH said:
Do these strains of Viruses manifest themselves in the U.S. or from other parts of the world..?:dunno:
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More than you ever wanted to know in the attachments.

For the TL;DR crowd - most likely some duck from Sweden with low pathogenic H5N2 banged a duck from Asia with low/high path H5N1 somewhere in Canada. The ducks infected each other and the two viruses switched some genes and all hell broke loose. And yes, we are all fortunate that this wasn't pathogenic in humans because this one got away from us.
 

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Re: Eggman/ James..

Everskyward said:
Now that it is getting colder again, is there a possibility that it will return?
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Yes. Migration is underway. There was just a new detection of low pathogenic H5N2 in Michigan last week.
 
We got the grow pipeline filled up in late October. I've been juggling birds and using techniques such as molting and using hens that would normally be considered spent to fill as fast as possible. Some serious operational consequences, but when you're empty.....

We had to put down nearly 7 million layers in total and about 1.5 million are back in production. We will be full in another 11 months.

I'm still most proud that we never laid anyone off through this whole mess. We cut back hours and had people use up vacation, but anyone who had a job and wanted to keep it was able to. 100% of my management team crossed the pits of hell and came out better on the other side.
 
James_Dean said:
We got the grow pipeline filled up in late October. I've been juggling birds and using techniques such as molting and using hens that would normally be considered spent to fill as fast as possible. Some serious operational consequences, but when you're empty.....

We had to put down nearly 7 million layers in total and about 1.5 million are back in production. We will be full in another 11 months.

I'm still most proud that we never laid anyone off through this whole mess. We cut back hours and had people use up vacation, but anyone who had a job and wanted to keep it was able to. 100% of my management team crossed the pits of hell and came out better on the other side.
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Eggsellent business management, that is a great accomplishment.
 
James_Dean said:
We got the grow pipeline filled up in late October. I've been juggling birds and using techniques such as molting and using hens that would normally be considered spent to fill as fast as possible. Some serious operational consequences, but when you're empty.....

We had to put down nearly 7 million layers in total and about 1.5 million are back in production. We will be full in another 11 months.

I'm still most proud that we never laid anyone off through this whole mess. We cut back hours and had people use up vacation, but anyone who had a job and wanted to keep it was able to. 100% of my management team crossed the pits of hell and came out better on the other side.
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That is not a trivial accomplishment. Great job keeping those people employed. I'm sure they learned a few new skills in the interim. I pray you don't have to go through this again.
 
James_Dean said:
Most turkey sites have now been repopulated, but the supply dent is significant. I've seen estimates as high as 5% annual production lost. The turkey business is a little different than eggs in that they have a huge demand at Thanksgiving and as such have to rely on frozen storage to meet the demand. This tempers any "shocks" to the system, however expect to pay +20% more this year than last.
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Yeah, there really isn't any inflation, 3% if that according to the BLS. Has the egg business rebounded from the bird flu yet?

I buy my eggs from a local farmer who raises free range chickens. Been buying them for years. They are now up to $2.75/dozen for Jumbos, and that is still lower than the supermarket, and they taste great.
 
If ya'll don't stop laying puns, the MC is gonna cage you in a timeout.
 
Clark1961 said:
If ya'll don't stop laying puns, the MC is gonna cage you in a timeout.
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Yeah.... We need to go over easy on the jokes or the entire post will get scrambled....... Hopefully someone won't come along and poach the better lines...:D
 
iu
 
Anthony said:
Yeah, there really isn't any inflation, 3% if that according to the BLS. Has the egg business rebounded from the bird flu yet?

I buy my eggs from a local farmer who raises free range chickens. Been buying them for years. They are now up to $2.75/dozen for Jumbos, and that is still lower than the supermarket, and they taste great.
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Core inflation (the "headline" number reported widely by the media) excludes owner-occupied housing, food, and energy, among other things. So if you don't eat any food, don't own a house (or want to buy one) -- live under a bridge, maybe-- don't heat your living space in the winter or cool it in the summer, and ride mass transit everywhere because you don't buy fuel to drive... yeah, then you can believe the government-approved inflation rate is 2% or 3% or whatever other irrelevant number they see fit to call it.
 
Okay, I'm officially hungry again.
 
Pretty much that. I didn't get my dose of deviled eggs last Thanksgiving. Maybe for Christmas.
 
James_Dean said:
Pretty good read, but really oversimplifies several parts of the equation.

http://www.wired.com/2016/01/the-insanely-complicated-logistics-of-cage-free-eggs-for-all/
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It's all pretty bizarre if you ask me. I'm glad you posted that link, though, because it confirms something that I suspected based on my very limited experience with chickens. I thought it was perhaps an aberration, but I guess it wasn't.

To put this in perspective, I have to be honest: Until I moved to the boonies, I personally couldn't care less if the hens who laid the eggs that I bought had been raised in Hoboken in the back seat of a '63 Buick. I just hadn't given it much thought. But I've actually met some chickens since then -- and "free-range" ones at that, although I personally think that "unsupervised by their idiot owners" might be a better and more honest way to put it.

Whatever the case, my opinion of chickens has now changed. Actually, it's more accurate to say that I now have an opinion of chickens whereas I never had one before I moved up here and met a few in person, as it were. And my opinion is that chickens are pretty dumb animals. I mean, seriously, I wonder how they survived Darwin's hammer as long as they did before being domesticated. They're not very bright. And they're not very friendly.

Even possums, which I also think are pretty dumb, are smart enough not to eat their own ****. (They're still working on that "avoiding moving vehicles" thing, though.) Chickens, on the other hand, think **** is a buffet. One chicken ****s, and another one scarfs it down like it's going out of style.

It's pretty disgusting, actually.

Another thing I've learned is that chickens -- even cute little harmless-looking baby chicks -- have this peculiar habit of pecking each other to death for no apparent reason. And if a chicken starts to bleed for whatever reason, it's a goner. Chickens have a blood thirst that not even sharks or lawyers can match. They will surround that chicken and literally peck it to death, feasting on its blood the whole time.

In short, having observed a bit of chicken societal behavior, I've become a big fan of cages. Frankly, I think the chickens are so dumb that they probably don't care one way or the other. And if they do, they're probably happy about not having to eat **** to fit in nor having to worry about being pecked to death if a tick happens to draw some blood and the other chickens get a whiff of it.

As dopey as I believe chickens to be, I do not, however, think that they're the dumbest animals on earth. That honor goes to the tree-hugging, sprout-eating, tie-dye wearing, wannabe hippie couple from whom I used to buy my eggs, who believe that letting their chickens run free, eat each others' ****, peck each other to death, and sometimes get run over by passing cars (because the two dip****s don't even fence their farm off from the road) is a good way to run an egg farm. ("Most drivers stop for them," is their reasoning, by the way.)

The other group that's even stupider than chickens are consumers who encourage this sort of insanity by insisting on eggs laid by "cage-free" hens. But I cut them some slack because I suspect that almost none of them have actually seen how chickens behave toward each other given the opportunity. Maybe if they did, they'd have a different opinion about the matter.

That's my opinion, and I admit that it's based on very limited experience. But based on that limited experience, it seems to me that life as a "cage-free" chicken must be a very harrowing way to live characterized by never-ending fear, non-existent sanitation, and a steady diet of ****. I think if I were a chicken, I'd rather be in a cage. I know that as someone who eats both chickens and eggs, I'd rather they be in cages.

Rich
 
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RJM62 said:
It's all pretty bizarre if you ask me. I'm glad you posted that link, though, because it confirms something that I suspected based on my very limited experience with chickens. I thought it was perhaps an aberration, but I guess it wasn't.

To put this in perspective, I have to be honest: Until I moved to the boonies, I personally couldn't care less if the hens who laid the eggs that I bought had been raised in Hoboken in the back seat of a '63 Buick. I just hadn't given it much thought. But I've actually met some chickens since then -- and "free-range" ones at that, although I personally think that "unsupervised by their idiot owners" might be a better and more honest way to put it.

Whatever the case, my opinion of chickens has now changed. Actually, it's more accurate to say that I now have an opinion of chickens whereas I never had one before I moved up here and met a few in person, as it were. And my opinion is that chickens are pretty dumb animals. I mean, seriously, I wonder how they survived Darwin's hammer as long as they did before being domesticated. They're not very bright. And they're not very friendly.

Even possums, which I also think are pretty dumb, are smart enough not to eat their own ****. (They're still working on that "avoiding moving vehicles" thing, though.) Chickens, on the other hand, think **** is a buffet. One chicken ****s, and another one scarfs it down like it's going out of style.

It's pretty disgusting, actually.

Another thing I've learned is that chickens -- even cute little harmless-looking baby chicks -- have this peculiar habit of pecking each other to death for no apparent reason. And if a chicken starts to bleed for whatever reason, it's a goner. Chickens have a blood thirst that not even sharks or lawyers can match. They will surround that chicken and literally peck it to death, feasting on its blood the whole time.

In short, having observed a bit of chicken societal behavior, I've become a big fan of cages. Frankly, I think the chickens are so dumb that they probably don't care one way or the other. And if they do, they're probably happy about not having to eat **** to fit in nor having to worry about being pecked to death if a tick happens to draw some blood and the other chickens get a whiff of it.

As dopey as I believe chickens to be, I do not, however, think that they're the dumbest animals on earth. That honor goes to the tree-hugging, sprout-eating, tie-dye wearing, wannabe hippie couple from whom I used to buy my eggs, who believe that letting their chickens run free, eat each others' ****, peck each other to death, and sometimes get run over by passing cars (because the two dip****s don't even fence their farm off from the road) is a good way to run an egg farm. ("Most drivers stop for them," is their reasoning, by the way.)

The other group that's even stupider than chickens are consumers who encourage this sort of insanity by insisting on eggs laid by "cage-free" hens. But I cut them some slack because I suspect that almost none of them have actually seen how chickens behave toward each other given the opportunity. Maybe if they did, they'd have a different opinion about the matter.

That's my opinion, and I admit that it's based on very limited experience. But based on that limited experience, it seems to me that life as a "cage-free" chicken must be a very harrowing way to live characterized by never-ending fear, non-existent sanitation, and a steady diet of ****. I think if I were a chicken, I'd rather be in a cage. I know that as someone who eats both chickens and eggs, I'd rather they be in cages.

Rich
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You have a wonderful way with words. It is interesting to note that genomic studies have now shown that chickens are really just modern dinosaurs. The challenge of getting them to perform is interesting and rewarding. I really love what I get to do.

Having said that, I think farmers have a few key responsibilities.

1. We must care for our animals in a way that ensures the five freedoms as interpreted by advisors from science and academia.

  • Freedom from hunger or thirst by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour
  • Freedom from discomfort by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area
  • Freedom from pain, injury or disease by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment
  • Freedom to express (most) normal behaviour by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind
  • Freedom from fear and distress by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering

2. We must provide a product that is safe to eat.

3. We must be sustainable. Environmentally, legally, financially, etc.


I think the vast majority of farmers would completely agree. Unfortunately we have failed to effectively communicate the how and why of this to society at large. Instead we get Sarah McLachlan singing with pictures of puppies in the background defining the message that we are all cruel profiteers.
 
I think the whole "cage free, free range" movement for food crop animals is suicidal, on a societal level. You can't cram seven plus billion people on the planet and expect them all to live off natural vegetation and wild fish and game. Something's gotta give.

I suspect that there will be a pendulum reversal once fast food retailers like McDonald's realize they are shooting themselves in the foot by declaring sole source procurement of cage free eggs. As James Dean and RJM62 point out, it's based on false premise and you aren't really doing the chickens a favor anyway.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I think the whole "cage free, free range" movement for food crop animals is suicidal, on a societal level. You can't cram seven plus billion people on the planet and expect them all to live off natural vegetation and wild fish and game. Something's gotta give.

I suspect that there will be a pendulum reversal once fast food retailers like McDonald's realize they are shooting themselves in the foot by declaring sole source procurement of cage free eggs. As James Dean and RJM62 point out, it's based on false premise and you aren't really doing the chickens a favor anyway.
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HSUS has $100,000,000 per year to throw at the issue and are winning. They have society convinced that they run pet shelters and so the money keeps rolling in. They are a 501c3 and don't pay taxes yet get to lobby with impunity because they are very effective at mobilizing their voting members.

Check what they are doing in Massachusetts.

http://m.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2015/08/massachusetts-ballot-initiative081915.html

Think about this for a second. The voters there could walk into any grocery store today and buy cage free eggs. HSUS is pushing a ballot initiative to force every egg sold in the state to be cage free literally taking food out of the mouths of the less fortunate to push an agenda. Think about it. The consumers in that state are voting with their pocketbook every day and aren't supporting this measure, however at the voting booth it will certainly pass.
 
James_Dean said:
Think about this for a second. The voters there could walk into any grocery store today and buy cage free eggs. HSUS is pushing a ballot initiative to force every egg sold in the state to be cage free literally taking food out of the mouths of the less fortunate to push an agenda. Think about it. The consumers in that state are voting with their pocketbook every day and aren't supporting this measure, however at the voting booth it will certainly pass.
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I think this is the key point. When you already have an item available, why mandate it be the only one available? People vote with their wallets on what they want, markets work, and you get the result. Forcing it just makes it unaffordable for those with lower incomes. But Coca-Cola is cheap. :mad2:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I think this is the key point. When you already have an item available, why mandate it be the only one available? People vote with their wallets on what they want, markets work, and you get the result. Forcing it just makes it unaffordable for those with lower incomes. But Coca-Cola is cheap. :mad2:
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It's all about control! If I want cage free eggs, I can buy them, if I want "heart healthy eggs" whatever that is, I can buy them, if I want an 18 pack of large eggs on sale, I should be able to buy them as well. You have to understand these do gooders are only helping us stupid mortals that don't know what to eat! Don't discount that the money behind the mandate may well be the producers of cage free eggs!! ;)
 
N747JB said:
It's all about control! If I want cage free eggs, I can buy them, if I want "heart healthy eggs" whatever that is, I can buy them, if I want an 18 pack of large eggs on sale, I should be able to buy them as well. You have to understand these do gooders are only helping us stupid mortals that don't know what to eat! Don't discount that the money behind the mandate may well be the producers of cage free eggs!! ;)
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http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/eggs-fats-and-the-new-dietary-guidelines/

The egg industry is pretty small and we know where the money is coming from.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...e-free-eggs/IW2C2aPBiYH6xZi1jqePtL/story.html
 
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