mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Teasing ya man. Just saying you'd be a good PR man for this school lol.
#Rant: Biannual Flight Review instead of Aircraft Checkout?
- Thread starter RyanLikesFlying
- Start date
Teasing ya man. Just saying you'd be a good PR man for this school lol.
RyanLikesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
You are right, there are always two sides to every story.
For some reason though, he did check off everything on their checkout sheet and signed it as if I accomplished the items but gave it back to me so I could give it to the next CFI I was scheduled with in case it wasn't him and they would know what I completed.
I'm not a CFI but I've flown with a fair amount of Instructor Pilots both civilian and military and when you have a bad ride, they tell you. Everyone has a bad day on occasion and you hope its not on a check ride. This was not one of those days. If your job is to instruct or evaluate other pilots and you cant tell them what they did wrong, thats an issue.
mtuomi
En-Route
Forced ground school is usually a ripoff.
RyanLikesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
I am seeing a trend at this place....
mtuomi
En-Route
Pretty often "ground school", especially for a private student, is just a story time with a CFI reading a Gleim book for you.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
This...especially if you can get it in writing.
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
Our club requires a six month checkout, and if you’re due for the faa fr then they just make the checkout long enough to cover it all
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paflyer
Final Approach
Hey, maybe so, but if it saves just one government job, isn't it worth it?
paflyer
Final Approach
Likely an insurance dictate.
He checked off everything on the checkout sheet and signed it... but you weren't "ready"? That's really weird. He ought to be able to say you're not ready because _________. Also, I too think $400 is too much. Our FBO's rates are $35 flight, $30 ground /hr... $40 for own aircraft for the instructor then add the wet rental in.... I do my own plane but I think it's $120-$130 for a 172.
James331
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James331
Combing a BFR with a checkout is a cool thing to offer people doing checkouts, and normally a good two birds with one stone thing.
The micromanaging of radio calls and price isn't good.
The not signing you off but not "knowing" why is fully unacceptable, and I'd ask for a refund for the dual you "received"
The micromanaging of radio calls and price isn't good.
The not signing you off but not "knowing" why is fully unacceptable, and I'd ask for a refund for the dual you "received"
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
probably so, our club has reasonable rules, but a good safety culture, well maintained planes, and a low price. most of our rules were written in blood over 60 years, so I don't chafe at them...
when i have my own plane, i'm going to write rules for myself similar to our club rules to keep me from getting complacent. a 6 month ride with a cfi to knock the rust out and learn a few things is a good idea for most non-pro pilots I would think, though i'm certainly not arguing it to be required
Disregarding the majority of this thread.. I will not sign off a rental checkout if you can't meet the standards of a flight review. I wouldn't think most CFIs would. Our rental checkouts are almost identical to a FR, except the renter can do the ground portion at home and bring a completed worksheet which cuts the ground time down to a half hour or less.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
...and since a flight review is whatever the CFI sees fit to do, there's a lot of flexibility in what you do for a checkout, right?
mtuomi
En-Route
I would do the same. It's clear he did not receive any dual. He just had a CFI sit in the plane with him.
Sinistar
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Brad
Find another place. Then write the owner of this money sucking 141 and tell them that no one will be coming any more. When this govt money dries up they'll change their ways.
RussR
En-Route
The whole "not signing you off but for no reason" thing does sound ridiculous, like others have said. But I couldn't help but notice this in your OP:
To which, sorry, I have to ask - what did you expect? Seems like you got a pretty predictable outcome.
To which, sorry, I have to ask - what did you expect? Seems like you got a pretty predictable outcome.
aftCG
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aftCG
Sort of. While the flexibility is granted, if said pilot crashes the investigation will include the last FR for a pencil whipped signature. I won't be that CFI.
I've seen 141 schools screw vets first hand. The only bigger cash cow is foreign students ( you get to screw them for housing too)
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm not suggesting pencil whipping a flight review...but if one's definition of a flight review is the equivalent of a checkride (as indicated by the OP), the instructor is missing tremendous opportunities to ensure that the pilot is safe AND proficient, and IMO doing little, if anything, to enhance safety, since what most pilots do is not go,out and fly checkride profiles.
aftCG
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aftCG
Understood.
I'm in the crowd that was puzzled by the instructor not signing the guy off. Is someone doesn't fulfill the objective of a FR I was taught to just log it as dual and provide the person with a list of things they'd need to work on.
That didn't happen here.
I'm in the crowd that was puzzled by the instructor not signing the guy off. Is someone doesn't fulfill the objective of a FR I was taught to just log it as dual and provide the person with a list of things they'd need to work on.
That didn't happen here.
Shopshirt
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Shopshirt
The VA is sold on the structure of 141 schools so the VA insists on 141 schools and I can understand the need for structure. (Even though, ultimately, a student still has to meet the FAA standards and pass the same check rides whether Part 61 or 141.) However, not all 141 schools are on the list and it must be a VA approved 141 school which exacerbates the problem.
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
And THIS is why things get out of hand. Not because of aftCG's statement but because the FAA will come after somebody. Last CFI that signed off his FR sounds like a great place to start the witch hunt. I've been an evaluator in the military for over 10 years and taken/given tons of checkrides. Everyone has a bad day from time to time - some people's bad days are on par with others great days but that's the nature of the beast. The attitude of looking/needing to find someone to blame for everything instead of saying "yes, flying airplanes is dangerous. This was pilot error." causes a snowball effect through aviation. Now the devils advocate side says that there needs to be checks and balances to root out the incompetent or blatantly negligent - I totally agree with that. The takeaway is how that oversight is administered and perceived by those being checked.
I saw this when my wife wanted to get her PPL. Her (new) instructor couldn't give specific feedback on what to work on before she solo'd. About 5 lessons in a row she was told - "You are doing fine, I just think you need more time". Those types of statements without any specific feedback are not conducive to a good learning environment. People lose motivation when they don't have a specific goal in mind. I knew some people at the flight school but stayed out of it till my wife decided not to continue her training. The next time I ran into the chief pilot I asked about that instructor; he said "yes, she didn't want to sign off anyone for anything - she was worried about what would happen to her if they ever had an incident down the road."
I've seen this at a lot of levels from PPL to ATP and in the military. Wonder why people don't continue to pursue avaition as a hobby or career? /rant
RyanLikesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
I totally understand your feeling. The VA programs can get crazy with the amount of funding they are throwing at guys. My case is a little different. I get a little bit of money per year for education for currently serving in the Air National Guard. Some guys use it for college, others use it for other approved programs. This amount is enough for about a 1/3 of a PPL so its nothing substantial like the VA often funds. I'm not going to derail the conversion and shift to social or political issues but there is a generation of kids that think college should be completely free. I'm serving in the Air Guard (in a full time capacity) and working for an extra that my employer offers. By no means am I gaming the system.
I checked the receipt. $328, not $400, so I stand corrected.
I did receive dual... He asked for my logbook when we were done and filled it out like I was another student. 1.4 Dual, no PIC time, and remarks one what we did, signed his name, CFI number and expiration. He was instructing me from the get go and it was not like a checkout. Like I said before, it was odd- like I was a brand new student from the get go and continued that way, even through the flight.
Well, the guys going up there were working on the 141 Private Pilot Certificate. I was headed up there to get checked out. I was hopefully (and wrong, obviously), that it would go a bit smoother and less BS. Now I know some operations operate the same, regardless of your situation.
I was/am puzzled too. Attached are what I received from the guy. My receipt and their sign off. You can see what they covered, what he checked off, and he signed it. I've redacted the names of the instructor and Flight School as I'm not trying to start a **** storm, be an ass, or discredit a CFI. I posted this partly to rant and get it off my chest, get some opinions, and just have a conversation.
Mentioned earlier, there are two sides to every story. I said mine. My flying ability or how the flight is the obvious variable on who you ask, me or the CFI. What I will standby is the fact that I was given zero feedback, told I needed another flight or two but he could really tell me why or what I did wrong. Look at the sign off. He checked everything and signed it as if they had been accomplished to some standard, be it his or the FAA's.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. I'm going to pull the plug here, withdrawal the money and send somewhere else. The way they run their operation is not conducive to someone coming up to rent a plane for the day and take money out of their CFI's pocket because I wouldn't be logging dual.
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RyanLikesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
There are a lot of issues with military aviation, obviously, but one thing that seems to work, particularly in the formal training environment is documentation. You go up and fly with an instructor/evaluator, you sit down and get a debrief or have a hot wash. Then there is documentation of the flight that you can review. So can your next instructor. You know what you did good, bad, and ugly. And so does your next instructor.
In this case, the CFI tells me I need another ride with them before I can rent. He signs all the paperwork for the checkout and gives it back to me "in case I don't fly with him next time and wont have to do the ground part of the BFR Checkout."
My gripe here is a signoff checklist that has been signed gives no indication what the next CFI needs to see. I suppose he is suppose to go up with me and an entire repeat done. Am I wrong here- even with an FAA checkride if you fail or don't perform a particular portion of a ride, you have to only repeat that portion of it on a recheck? So this whole process goes above even what a DPE would require???
In this case, theres nothing- the school would expect another hour in the plane with a CFI being paid as he has no idea whats hes looking for.
Lindberg
Final Approach
The instructors name is at the top of that form.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
You are correct...the real issue is that the instructor provides no guidance, either to you or the next instructor, as to what needs to be worked on.
As far as what happens on a checkride, the examiner notes what was/wasn't accomplished and what didn't meet standard. What you have to accomplish the next time around depends on the examiner...he can choose to only require what was previously missed (along with whatever it takes to get to and from that point), or he can require everything. Most of us just do what was missed, but there may be valid reasons for doing the whole check the second time around.
RyanLikesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
Thanks, I edited it.
Witmo
Pattern Altitude
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Tim
You do know that since you are rated, any dual time you receive can additionally be logged as PIC for yourself, don't you? As a veteran and
GI Bill user, my opinion is the VA should get out of the approval business of part 141 programs. If the FAA approves a part 141 school it should be automatically eligible for VA students. The VA knows nothing about aviation training and it's clearly evident to any veteran that has to deal with them.
Flight Reviews are not supposed to be checkrides although some evaluation of skills are required. I'd steer clear of this operation as it sounds like its designed to suck the money out of the pockets of clients.
GI Bill user, my opinion is the VA should get out of the approval business of part 141 programs. If the FAA approves a part 141 school it should be automatically eligible for VA students. The VA knows nothing about aviation training and it's clearly evident to any veteran that has to deal with them.
Flight Reviews are not supposed to be checkrides although some evaluation of skills are required. I'd steer clear of this operation as it sounds like its designed to suck the money out of the pockets of clients.
FlySince9
En-Route
not sure if you answered this yet... but what club to you belong to in charlotte?
RyanLikesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yeah, I’m aware I can log it too. Just pointed out that’s what the CFI put in my log book. I will update my logbook. Maybe the guy forgot I was a Cert holder on the way out the door?
RyanLikesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
Wings Over Waxhaw in Jaars (N52)
Shopshirt
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Shopshirt
Agreed! The other thing that bugs is the VA will reduce education benefits by half if you are enrolled in vocational flight training only and are not enrolled a BA or BS flight program at a 4 year college. If a student already has a degree they really only need flight training. So they lose a large portion of their education benefits and as a result may not take them to the ratings they need to be employable.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I haven't done any research on this, but has anybody ever heard of the FAA holding an instructor liable for not covering enough and/or specific tasks from the PTS on a flight review?
I think the major takeaway from this is that if you go for a checkout and the instructor says, "we do a flight review for our checkouts," one can respond,"Great...what do you do for a flight review?" If the response is, "everything in the PTS," just walk away.
Same if you actually are going for a flight review.
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danhagan
En-Route
Answered your own question. Why would you go there?
In my field (medical) that translates to: "You technically know the material, but I don't trust you working on my dog" or "this person is close, but has almost zero self confidence and EVERY time I think about releasing them, they do some stupid minor mistake".
Have a bunch of CFI buddies and they tell me the horror story flight reviews they've done ... on a couple of them, I knew the pilot, who also later indicated the CFI was a real PITA (other side of the story was the CFI asking the review pilot to create a flight plan and in air, plan a diversion for weather, giving time to target and approximate fuel burn).
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
[QUOTE="danhagan, post: 2414153, member: 6095”]
In my field (medical) that translates to: "You technically know the material, but I don't trust you working on my dog" or "this person is close, but has almost zero self confidence and EVERY time I think about releasing them, they do some stupid minor mistake".
Have a bunch of CFI buddies and they tell me the horror story flight reviews they've done ... on a couple of them, I knew the pilot, who also later indicated the CFI was a real PITA (other side of the story was the CFI asking the review pilot to create a flight plan and in air, plan a diversion for weather, giving time to target and approximate fuel burn).[/QUOTE]
I don’t doubt that sometimes that is true. I have said that same thing but it’s either right before or right after specific deficiencies with instruction on how to fix those deficiencies. If you just say “you’re fine, just need more time” and leave it at that you are shorting your students.
In my field (medical) that translates to: "You technically know the material, but I don't trust you working on my dog" or "this person is close, but has almost zero self confidence and EVERY time I think about releasing them, they do some stupid minor mistake".
Have a bunch of CFI buddies and they tell me the horror story flight reviews they've done ... on a couple of them, I knew the pilot, who also later indicated the CFI was a real PITA (other side of the story was the CFI asking the review pilot to create a flight plan and in air, plan a diversion for weather, giving time to target and approximate fuel burn).[/QUOTE]
I don’t doubt that sometimes that is true. I have said that same thing but it’s either right before or right after specific deficiencies with instruction on how to fix those deficiencies. If you just say “you’re fine, just need more time” and leave it at that you are shorting your students.
James331
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James331
You did not receive dual, or at least dual instruction, instruction means you were taught something, or at least evaluated, you were not, if he can't say what you need to work on he's really not acting as a real flight instructor.
Ether way, there is zero way you should let that idiot keep your money for the "dual", ...and as a tax payer who's paying for some of that flight too, if not for you, but for the taxpayers like me, please don't let that idiot keep that money, I for one worked too damn hard for it to let it be stolen like that.
Ether way, there is zero way you should let that idiot keep your money for the "dual", ...and as a tax payer who's paying for some of that flight too, if not for you, but for the taxpayers like me, please don't let that idiot keep that money, I for one worked too damn hard for it to let it be stolen like that.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
You can use whatever DPE you desire.
jonnyjetprop
Cleared for Takeoff
Several comments:
Background: I was an instructor with 1800 hrs. dual given and I've done plenty a/c checkouts. I worked with 6-10 military guys wanting to get their ATP. Airline background with training department experience.
What do you need to work on? There are several items that were not checked off on the form you shared. I assume that either you ran out of time or were deficient in those areas. I assume the reason why you needed a second hop is to get those items checked off.
Do you normally need a BFR vs. a typical rental checkout. This varies widely. I have been asked to do effectively a BFR and I've had checkouts where it was a couple of laps of the pattern. In the future, you need to call and ask what a rental checkout entails. Some are extremely formal and yes, the 141 places tend to go in this direction. Buyer beware. This is one area where it pays to due some research. Do you expect me to fly the airplane safely or do you expect me to fly it exactly the way you want it flown? What are the norms when it comes to checkouts? I think that most folks going to a G1000 equipped aircraft would expect multiple hops. I flew one once with a CFI friend and I could fly it VFR just OK. Maybe you were expecting your G300 experience to carry you further than it really did and/or those aren't the areas where the instructor felt you needed more work.
The prices are right in line of what I'd expect to pay for a restart Cessna 172 w/G1000 and the instructor rate is inline with most 141 schools. I don't think you were gouged.
Instructor comments. As a high time pilot, I expect that sometimes an instructor will have difficulty communicating deficient areas. I try to put the instructor at ease and let him know that I'm here for a learning experience and that I expect and welcome negative feedback. Think of it as if you were giving your squadron commander a check ride.
Training expectations: The modern flight school is nothing like a formal training program that you saw in the military or at the airlines. Unfortunately, the civilian standard is much lower and varies widely with each instructor. I find that the best way to handle this is to be proactive with the instructor. I'd call ahead of time and ask what exactly will be covered? What materials is he/she using as a baseline? I'd ask in a polite way what my progress was and how it compared to the standards that he was using. What did you think of that steep turn? How did it compare with the PTS or ACS? What can I do to improve? I would always expect my performance to meet or exceed the standards for the rating I hold.
I wasn't there, so I can't comment on how you flew. You need to take a mirror and look hard at your performance and how it compares to the ASC or PTS. What I can give you is an honest opinion based on my experience with other military pilots. I generally found that most military pilots were overall good pilots. However, there are big differences between what a military pilot does and what is needed to fly a general aviation plane. Most military pilots needed help in certain areas where the military experience didn't translate well into civilian flying. Most military pilots were very receptive to this and a few were not. Those could not understand why their military experience didn't cover everything in the civilian world. Those guys were a pain and gave military pilots a bad reputation.
What to do going forward? With the prices being inline, I'd finish the checkout, but I'd call or stop by and get a lesson plan or at least an idea of what was needed. If you're thinking of getting additional training, I'd either look elsewhere or really sit down with the chief instructor. Let him know what the schools reputation is. Ask him to defend the program. Become active in the process and don't just expect to show up. It's a buyers market in aviation.
Background: I was an instructor with 1800 hrs. dual given and I've done plenty a/c checkouts. I worked with 6-10 military guys wanting to get their ATP. Airline background with training department experience.
What do you need to work on? There are several items that were not checked off on the form you shared. I assume that either you ran out of time or were deficient in those areas. I assume the reason why you needed a second hop is to get those items checked off.
Do you normally need a BFR vs. a typical rental checkout. This varies widely. I have been asked to do effectively a BFR and I've had checkouts where it was a couple of laps of the pattern. In the future, you need to call and ask what a rental checkout entails. Some are extremely formal and yes, the 141 places tend to go in this direction. Buyer beware. This is one area where it pays to due some research. Do you expect me to fly the airplane safely or do you expect me to fly it exactly the way you want it flown? What are the norms when it comes to checkouts? I think that most folks going to a G1000 equipped aircraft would expect multiple hops. I flew one once with a CFI friend and I could fly it VFR just OK. Maybe you were expecting your G300 experience to carry you further than it really did and/or those aren't the areas where the instructor felt you needed more work.
The prices are right in line of what I'd expect to pay for a restart Cessna 172 w/G1000 and the instructor rate is inline with most 141 schools. I don't think you were gouged.
Instructor comments. As a high time pilot, I expect that sometimes an instructor will have difficulty communicating deficient areas. I try to put the instructor at ease and let him know that I'm here for a learning experience and that I expect and welcome negative feedback. Think of it as if you were giving your squadron commander a check ride.
Training expectations: The modern flight school is nothing like a formal training program that you saw in the military or at the airlines. Unfortunately, the civilian standard is much lower and varies widely with each instructor. I find that the best way to handle this is to be proactive with the instructor. I'd call ahead of time and ask what exactly will be covered? What materials is he/she using as a baseline? I'd ask in a polite way what my progress was and how it compared to the standards that he was using. What did you think of that steep turn? How did it compare with the PTS or ACS? What can I do to improve? I would always expect my performance to meet or exceed the standards for the rating I hold.
I wasn't there, so I can't comment on how you flew. You need to take a mirror and look hard at your performance and how it compares to the ASC or PTS. What I can give you is an honest opinion based on my experience with other military pilots. I generally found that most military pilots were overall good pilots. However, there are big differences between what a military pilot does and what is needed to fly a general aviation plane. Most military pilots needed help in certain areas where the military experience didn't translate well into civilian flying. Most military pilots were very receptive to this and a few were not. Those could not understand why their military experience didn't cover everything in the civilian world. Those guys were a pain and gave military pilots a bad reputation.
What to do going forward? With the prices being inline, I'd finish the checkout, but I'd call or stop by and get a lesson plan or at least an idea of what was needed. If you're thinking of getting additional training, I'd either look elsewhere or really sit down with the chief instructor. Let him know what the schools reputation is. Ask him to defend the program. Become active in the process and don't just expect to show up. It's a buyers market in aviation.