Passenger killed while deplaning 8/7

As a whole, people's situational awareness these days is terrible. They're in their own head, oblivious to what is going on around them and we have to take that into account.
 
There is a local part 135 operation that fuels as well as let passengers on and off their helos with the engine running. I think the engines are limited to a certain number of start cycles before a hot section inspection or maintenance is required.
 
Yikes.

This is one that I've decided is too easy to just not ever do, period. Prop stops before pax get in or out. Every. Single. Time.
 
Have to agree if the props turning no loading or unloading of pax.
 
Yes.

One thing that is likely different between pilots and passengers is that pilots should understand that spinning props are essentially invisible. Passengers may not get that. The risk of being near a spinning prop is high. High enough that passengers shouldn't be near them, outside the aircraft, at all. That shouldn't have to be said, but many people can get all the way to adulthood without being around anything close to that dangerous, with the exception of motor vehicle traffic. Everybody learns that look left/right thing at an early age, and don't even realize they do it. (Off topic, but in talking with a bus driver from Ireland years ago, he mentioned that this is maybe the leading cause of death of Americans visiting there. They look the wrong way when crossing the street, and don't see they're walking in front of a truck.)
 
Grum.Man said:
That’s usually from a lack of understanding why it’s hard to start or having a flawed technique. Once you figure out what the correct combination is, it’s a non issue.

Edit: not calling you out specifically, just saying “you” as in the pilot.
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Exactly. And starting within a few minutes of shutting down is no big deal. After about half an hour, it gets interesting, but again, not a big thing if you understand
 
I can't imagine trying to open the canopy on a DA-40 with the engine running. It opens up and forward.

I have done hot deplaning/embarking. But it was given rides at an airport day with a KNOWLEDGEABLE attendant. And with a 172, so the door and the strut keep people well back from the prop. They were escorted to the plan from the right rear, and loaded through the right door.
 
Grum.Man said:
That’s usually from a lack of understanding why it’s hard to start or having a flawed technique. Once you figure out what the correct combination is, it’s a non issue...
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eh, easier to do when you're an owner and fly the same plane all the time. that's how you "figure out the correct combination". not always as easy when you're renting different planes and they each have their own little hot start quirks. but yeah, 'understanding' is key.
 
eman1200 said:
eh, easier to do when you're an owner and fly the same plane all the time. that's how you "figure out the correct combination". not always as easy when you're renting different planes and they each have their own little hot start quirks. but yeah, 'understanding' is key.
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I once spent a good 10 minutes trying to start a rented DA20 with the fuel injected Continental. Although I had almost 250 hours at the time, I had less than 10 in the DA20 and not much more than that in fuel injected aircraft in general.

You know what I did? I got the POH out and read it. Started right up.
 
172andyou said:
So tell us the technique! Don't be stingy! :)
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There's actually a couple that's worked for me...

@asicer method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
0. Just prior to shutdown, set the throttle to 1000RPM and then pull the mixture. After this, don't touch the knobs/levers!
1. Don't touch the knobs/levers! Mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward.
2. If after 10 seconds it fired once and then died or it never fired, this means it's cooled off enough to take a prime:
(a) wait for starter to cool
(b) boost pump on
(c) mixture forward until fuel pressure stabilizes
(d) pull mixture
(e) boost pump off
(f) mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward

@Ted method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/182-hot-start.87080/#post-1923696

I usually use the @asicer method because it's easier for me to remember. ;)

Also, Continentals use a different technique.
 
asicer said:
There's actually a couple that's worked for me...

@asicer method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
0. Just prior to shutdown, set the throttle to 1000RPM and then pull the mixture. After this, don't touch the knobs/levers!
1. Don't touch the knobs/levers! Mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward.
2. If after 10 seconds it fired once and then died or it never fired, this means it's cooled off enough to take a prime:
(a) wait for starter to cool
(b) boost pump on
(c) mixture forward until fuel pressure stabilizes
(d) pull mixture
(e) boost pump off
(f) mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward

@Ted method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/182-hot-start.87080/#post-1923696

I usually use the @asicer method because it's easier for me to remember. ;)

Also, Continentals use a different technique.
Click to expand...
That's exactly how my io540 starts. Any prime at all when it's hot will flood it. It was my first fuel injected engine and I spent a lot of time fretting about hot & cold starts. Then I tried doing what the POH says as opposed to tribal knowledge or "my cfi told me", and lo & behold it worked!
 
asicer said:
There's actually a couple that's worked for me...

@asicer method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
0. Just prior to shutdown, set the throttle to 1000RPM and then pull the mixture. After this, don't touch the knobs/levers!
1. Don't touch the knobs/levers! Mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward.
2. If after 10 seconds it fired once and then died or it never fired, this means it's cooled off enough to take a prime:
(a) wait for starter to cool
(b) boost pump on
(c) mixture forward until fuel pressure stabilizes
(d) pull mixture
(e) boost pump off
(f) mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward

@Ted method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/182-hot-start.87080/#post-1923696

I usually use the @asicer method because it's easier for me to remember. ;)

Also, Continentals use a different technique.
Click to expand...
How can 1 ever work? If you shut off by starving the engine, how will it start up again without giving it any fuel?
 
asicer said:
There's actually a couple that's worked for me...

@asicer method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
0. Just prior to shutdown, set the throttle to 1000RPM and then pull the mixture. After this, don't touch the knobs/levers!
1. Don't touch the knobs/levers! Mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward.
2. If after 10 seconds it fired once and then died or it never fired, this means it's cooled off enough to take a prime:
(a) wait for starter to cool
(b) boost pump on
(c) mixture forward until fuel pressure stabilizes
(d) pull mixture
(e) boost pump off
(f) mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward

@Ted method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/182-hot-start.87080/#post-1923696

I usually use the @asicer method because it's easier for me to remember. ;)

Also, Continentals use a different technique.
Click to expand...

I'll have to admit that when I saw I was mentioned in "Passenger killed while deplaning", I was slightly concerned. I was relieved to find it only had to do with hot starts. :)
 
Salty said:
How can 1 ever work? If you shut off by starving the engine, how will it start up again without giving it any fuel?
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When you pull the mixture lever you stop flow of fuel at the servo, but the lines still have fuel in them. As the engine heat soaks the fuel injector lines, it vaporizes and pushes some fuel/vapor into the heads, basically priming the engine. That's why priming a hot engine tends to flood it... it's already primed.

I think...I could be all wet here.
 
dmspilot said:
I once spent a good 10 minutes trying to start a rented DA20 with the fuel injected Continental. Although I had almost 250 hours at the time, I had less than 10 in the DA20 and not much more than that in fuel injected aircraft in general.

You know what I did? I got the POH out and read it. Started right up.
Click to expand...

Yep, use the proper procedure on hot starts. However, if you shutdown for a few seconds to deplane a passenger, you're not likely to have issues on restart. It generally takes a bit of time for the fuel to cook in the lines to make the IOs balky on start (like long enough to refuel).
 
asicer said:
There's actually a couple that's worked for me...

@asicer method (Lycoming IO360 and IO540):
0. Just prior to shutdown, set the throttle to 1000RPM and then pull the mixture. After this, don't touch the knobs/levers!
1. Don't touch the knobs/levers! Mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward.
2. If after 10 seconds it fired once and then died or it never fired, this means it's cooled off enough to take a prime:
(a) wait for starter to cool
(b) boost pump on
(c) mixture forward until fuel pressure stabilizes
(d) pull mixture
(e) boost pump off
(f) mags on and then crank. When it catches, mixture full forward
Click to expand...

Thanks!

flyingron said:
Yep, use the proper procedure on hot starts. However, if you shutdown for a few seconds to deplane a passenger, you're not likely to have issues on restart. It generally takes a bit of time for the fuel to cook in the lines to make the IOs balky on start (like long enough to refuel).
Click to expand...

15-45 minutes is what I've read as the sweet spot for having trouble.
 
eman1200 said:
eh, easier to do when you're an owner and fly the same plane all the time. that's how you "figure out the correct combination". not always as easy when you're renting different planes and they each have their own little hot start quirks. but yeah, 'understanding' is key.
Click to expand...
I have no problem shutting down for 30mins grabbing and drink in the FBO.. beats everyone looking at you as you cant get the engine re-fired as you toast the battery/starter trying
 
Jim K said:
When you pull the mixture lever you stop flow of fuel at the servo, but the lines still have fuel in them. As the engine heat soaks the fuel injector lines, it vaporizes and pushes some fuel/vapor into the heads, basically priming the engine. That's why priming a hot engine tends to flood it... it's already primed.

I think...I could be all wet here.
Click to expand...
Perhaps. But, I don't see any issue in filling the lines back up again before cranking. It's essentially a flooded start procedure already, might as well make sure there's enough fuel before trying. Has always worked for me.
 
Years ago during training with my CFI, as we were taxiing into the very busy FBO ramp to park, someone's kids came running straight at us. Seemed like slow motion, I did everything at one time mixture- ignition and it still seemed to take forever to get the prop stopped ...
 
danhagan said:
Years ago during training with my CFI, as we were taxiing into the very busy FBO ramp to park, someone's kids came running straight at us. Seemed like slow motion, I did everything at one time mixture- ignition and it still seemed to take forever to get the prop stopped ...
Click to expand...

I worry about this every time I enter a parking lot, don't matter if its Walmart or the FBO.
 
It’s one of those things, I don’t think I’ve ever done a hot deplaning. Even if so, the doors open outwards and person exits to the rear. Once I landed and the passenger opened the door to get fresh air while on the runway still at a considerable speed, I was a bit startled as I didn’t expect that. I said next time tell me first and wait until we are off the runway. For hot starts, pull out the checklist or POH, seems to work. Sometimes I use the boost pump to start, sometimes I don’t, as long as I primed it before, it still starts nicely.

I cannot imagine this incident though, probably lots of blood and who knows if the body got knocked away or completely disappeared into thin air.
 
I am so tired of reading this story. Just stop, please. I mean doing this and the prop.
 
mandm said:
For hot starts, pull out the checklist or POH, seems to work. Sometimes I use the boost pump to start, sometimes I don’t, as long as I primed it before, it still starts nicely.
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What's weird is that my POH doesn't have a hot start procedure. Found this out the hard way last summer during a fuel stop in El Paso. Cold start? Yes. Start with external power? It's in there. Hot start? Nada.

I found a procedure in the TCM TSIO-360 Engine Manual, so I copied that and keep it in the plane now.
 
Steve Costello said:
That poor daughter (really, anyone near this, but especially her). She'll never, ever forget this, and odds are pretty good she saw the whole thing.

The pilot was a complete moron for letting that woman exit the airplane (especially since she had to exit toward the prop) with the prop spinning. I presume he did this to avoid a hot start on the IO-360, which was especially problematic on the DA-40.

Just awful. I would never allow a pax to exit an airplane with the prop spinning, but if they did, and they turned into hamburger helper, I'd have an awfully tough time flying again.
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A hot start on a injected engine is not a problem if you are going to restart it immediately. Hot starts are a problem 30 to 60 minutes after shutdown when all the fuel system components get heat soaked. In fact you can usually shut them down with the key and the will fire right up without any mixture/throttle gymnastics if under 10 minutes.
 
Rgbeard's picture brought back a very disturbing memory from my earlier life. I was a Flight Surgeon in a P3 squadron in the early 80s at Moffett Field. Shortly after reporting for duty, I was reviewing an accident report from a couple of years earlier, involving a crew member who walked into a running prop at night. The report included photos (luckily B&W) of the crewman's remains. I'm not a squeamish person (after 4 years of medical school and a couple of years of general surgery residency by that time), but the stark geometry of those photos has remained with me to this day.

Coincidentally to this accident, I have owned a DA-40 for the past 21 years. I don't even unlatch the canopy until the prop is stopped and the aircraft is powered down...
 
NavAir said:
Coincidentally to this accident, I have owned a DA-40 for the past 21 years. I don't even unlatch the canopy until the prop is stopped and the aircraft is powered down...
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I'm guessing you don't count the ventilation detent, no?
 
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