New requirement to carry ad list/compliance in a/c for training/testing?

AeroLudite

AeroLudite

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 25, 2020
Messages
114
Display Name
Display name:
AeroLudite
I recently had a DPE decline to test an applicant because the ad compliance list wasn’t in the aircraft (present during oral pretest verification). A list of applicable ad’s was in maintenance log books and IA’s sign-off at last annual.
(Ie: in addition to AROW)
Is this new, or have I been missing something?
This a/c has previously been successfully used for four recent check rides with other /different DPE’s...
 
So you're saying the AD list was available for the checkride for the airworthiness task, but not physically in the airplane? And because of that, the test was not started?
 
There's no requirement to have the aircraft logs in the aircraft, so why in the world would the AD list be required?
 
The DPE’s interpretation was that just a list of applicable ad’s and IA’s sign off stating they had been complied with was insufficient, and copy was required to accompany arow in aircraft. Stated it was a faa-wide requirement, not just Alabama FSDO. Neither was the IA’s sign off sufficient.

My IA has already generated another document as specified by 91.417(a)(2)(v) besides that one generated by the subscription software he utilizes that the DPE deemed unacceptable...

and copies will be in the a/c..... sigh...
I’m neither a dpe nor an a&p IA, so I’m not arguing with either...

halffast; DPE’s check list in ACS appendix...
 
Last edited:
There's no direct requirement for the W in ARROW either, but people love a good mnemonic. Sometimes the TC requires the equipment list and the W&B paperwork is often part of the "O".
 
AeroLudite said:
ACS appendix, dpe’s checklist...
Click to expand...
That checklist is just handy information. It just says "Logbook Record of Airworthiness Inspections and AD Compliance" without saying it has to be in the aircraft. It also says POH and AFM which do not exist for all aircraft (and aren't required *AND* it repeats the Operating Limitations bullet item three lines above). No indication it needs to be carried aboard any more than the "evaluators fee."

The DPE handbook says:


f. Aircraft Requirements. Review the aircraft’s airworthiness certificate, aircraft registration, and aircraft maintenance records or logbooks for the last annual condition inspection, 100-hour inspection, if applicable, and compliance with applicable Airworthiness Directives (AD) and safety directives to determine if the aircraft is in a safe condition for flight and suitable for this practical test. Verify that the aircraft (airplane or glider) to be used is certificated for spins, if required. Aircraft used must meet the definition of light-sport aircraft in accordance with § 1.1. After reviewing the documents, return them to the applicant.
​
That's the only mention of ADs and aircraft logs/records in the whole thing. You check them and put give them back.
 
AeroLudite said:
ACS appendix, dpe’s checklist..
Click to expand...
Checked the ACS and avialble DPE checklists and don't see a reference to have an AD listing. Only mentions to have an "understanding" of these records. Maybe a call the DPE's FSDO will get you more info?
flyingron said:
There's no direct requirement for the W in ARROW either,
Click to expand...
FYI: not quite. Without the aircraft certified empty weight and balance documents in the aircraft it is not airworthy as that is part of its type certification. Been that way for ions.
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: not quite. Without the aircraft certified empty weight and balance documents in the aircraft it is not airworthy as that is part of its type certification. Been that way for ions.
Click to expand...
Prove it. While most type certificates require a weight and balance to be provided and maintained, there's not usually a strict requirement for it to be carried aboard. Some TCs say "and at all times thereafter," some don't.
 
flyingron said:
there's not usually a strict requirement for it to be carried aboard.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on your definition of “strict requirements”. Given most Aircraft Specifications/TCDS state the empty weight and balance/equipment list “must be in the aircraft” it’s pretty much a done deal, strictly speaking. For example, the Navion Specification A-782 listed below states this.
upload_2022-3-28_15-37-55.png
Now for those exception aircraft that don’t have such an empty weight statement in their Specification or TCDS, like an Ercoupe (A-718 example below), the requirement moves up a notch as there are other regulatory limitations that require calculations based on the certified empty weight docs to remain legal to fly. Plus for a number of newer aircraft the empty weight documentation regulatory requirement was moved from the TCDS/Spec to the AFM. So it might not be listed in the TCDS/Spec no longer.
upload_2022-3-28_15-38-32.png
Regardless, if any of the previous points don’t meet your approval there is always the FAA National Policy Order 8900.1 requirement that the aircraft certified empty weight and equipment list must be on board the aircraft. This mainly comes into play during a ramp check but the Order is pretty clear what needs to be on board the aircraft.
upload_2022-3-28_15-38-58.png
 
The DPE probably didn't have his/her coffee in the morning. That's why I had a checkride AND DPE gouge. None of the DPE's in my old FSDO had uniformity on the checkrides. Find another DPE and move on. It's not worth the headache.
 
What is the DPE’s name? The rest of us would like to avoid them.

The requirement is that the applicant prove the airplane is airworthy, which includes the AD sign off in the logbook.

There is zero requirement for the logbook to be in the airplane and in fact, that might be considered a very bad idea. If anything happens to the airplane. The logbook would not be available.

Personally, I would file a complaint with the FSDO. This DPE’s knowledge reflects very poorly on the FAA’s quality. If this is what they allow, they are really in sad shape.
 
bflynn said:
What is the DPE’s name? The rest of us would like to avoid them.

The requirement is that the applicant prove the airplane is airworthy, which includes the AD sign off in the logbook.

There is zero requirement for the logbook to be in the airplane and in fact, that might be considered a very bad idea. If anything happens to the airplane. The logbook would not be available.

Personally, I would file a complaint with the FSDO. This DPE’s knowledge reflects very poorly on the FAA’s quality. If this is what they allow, they are really in sad shape.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what it is but for every pilot DPE complaint, there is usually a "rest of the story." That just means I have no opinion without knowing both sides.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Lol. I was going to ask him the same thing. Mark must be thinking about running for judge and is practicing impartiality. Not a normal lawyerly trait. :D
Click to expand...
If I don't have a client involved I can be extremely impartial.



(In reality, the ability to be impartial is a very important lawyer trait. Very important when advising clients and a huge advantage in litigation. Imagine understanding the other side's case better than they do.)
 
I’d be curious to see how the IA signed off the AD’s. Some IA sign offs say “All ADs complied with”. I’ve never accepted that as a sign off.

I believe the DPE was adhering to FAR 91.417(v):

“v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.”

There should be a list of all ADs with a method of compliance and compliance date that is then signed off by the A&P or IA for the annual. The IA just has to sign off the annual inspection. A&Ps can sign off the AD list or work performed. The AD list is how it’s done on my plane and that may be what the DPE was looking for. Otherwise you’d have to show where each AD for the airplane was complied with. However, that is not the responsibility of the renter on a checkride. That DPE should’ve taken that up with the owner/operator.

See also AC 39-7D

“e. Required Entries into Records. The person accomplishing the AD is required by § 43.9 to record AD compliance. The entry must include those items specified in § 43.9(a)(1)
through (a)(4). The owner or operator is required by § 91.405 to ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries and, by § 91.417, to maintain those records. Owners and operators should note that there is a difference between the records required to be kept by the owner under § 91.417 and those that § 43.9 requires maintenance personnel to make. In either case, the owner or operator is responsible for maintaining proper records.”

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 39-7D.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
flyingron said:
Prove it. While most type certificates require a weight and balance to be provided and maintained, there's not usually a strict requirement for it to be carried aboard. Some TCs say "and at all times thereafter," some don't.
Click to expand...



FAA-H-8083-1B Weight and Balance Handbook Page 2-10,

“When an aircraft is initially certificated, its empty weight and EWCG are determined and recorded in the weight and balance record, such as the one in Figure 2-16. Notice in this figur that the moment is expressed as “Moment (lb-in/1,000).” This is a moment index, which means that the moment, a very large number, has been divided by 1,000 to make it more manageable. Chapter 4, Light Sport Aircraft—Weight and Balance Control, discusses moment indices in more detail.
The aircraft is furnished with an equipment list, specifies all the required equipment and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of all installed equipment are included on the list and checked prior to the aircraft leaving the factory.
When an aircraft mechanic or repairman adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change
the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and EWCG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed. Figure 2-17 is from a comprehensive equipment list that includes all of the items of equipment approved for this particular model of aircraft. The pilot’s operating handbook (POH) for each individual aircraft includes an aircraft-specific equipment list of the items from this master list. When any item is added to or removed from the aircraft, its weight and arm are determined in the equipment list and used to update the weight and balance record. The POH and airplane flight manual (AFM) also contain CG moment envelopes and loading graphs. Examples of the use of these helpful graphs are given in Chapter 5, Single-Engine Aircraft Weight and Balance Computations.
In addition to the weight and balance report and equipment list, the manufacturer also provides a CG range chart. The CG range can be found in text form in the TCDS. The CG range chart is furnished in the POH.”
 
Sounds like a blow off excuse to avoid doing the checkride.
 
Fracpilot said:
I’d be curious to see how the IA signed off the AD’s. Some IA sign offs say “All ADs complied with”. I’ve never accepted that as a sign off.

I believe the DPE was adhering to FAR 91.417(v):

“v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.”

There should be a list of all ADs with a method of compliance and compliance date that is then signed off by the A&P or IA for the annual. The IA just has to sign off the annual inspection. A&Ps can sign off the AD list or work performed. The AD list is how it’s done on my plane and that may be what the DPE was looking for. Otherwise you’d have to show where each AD for the airplane was complied with. However, that is not the responsibility of the renter on a checkride. That DPE should’ve taken that up with the owner/operator.

See also AC 39-7D

“e. Required Entries into Records. The person accomplishing the AD is required by § 43.9 to record AD compliance. The entry must include those items specified in § 43.9(a)(1)
through (a)(4). The owner or operator is required by § 91.405 to ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries and, by § 91.417, to maintain those records. Owners and operators should note that there is a difference between the records required to be kept by the owner under § 91.417 and those that § 43.9 requires maintenance personnel to make. In either case, the owner or operator is responsible for maintaining proper records.”

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 39-7D.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
But none of that is required to be carried on the aircraft. It is all part of the maintenance records which are not typically stored in the plane. OP said DPE said that the list needed to be in the plane. DPE is wrong.
 
Fracpilot said:
I believe the DPE was adhering to FAR 91.417(v):
Click to expand...
As mentioned above and in the OP, this thread is about requiring an AD listing to be on board the aircraft. Part 91.417 is only applicable to an owner/operator not a DPE and has zero requirement where those records are to be kept except for a fuel tank 337 per 417(d). While a DPE has every right to verify the airworthiness of an aircraft, he's outside his lane in making non-standard requests and especially making "interpretations" of mx records and sign-offs. Even a FSDO ops ASI has to bring in a mx ASI when it comes to maintenance issues. Would be interesting to hear the DPE's version and where he got his "FAA-wide policy" on this AD list requirement.
 
SkyDog58 said:
But none of that is required to be carried on the aircraft. It is all part of the maintenance records which are not typically stored in the plane. OP said DPE said that the list needed to be in the plane. DPE is wrong.
Click to expand...

When I did my CFI and MEI, the DPE was well within his right to see the maintenance logs to prove the annual was current. The school was familiar with this DPE and always sent all logs with the aircraft for checkrides. Luckily I am also an A&P and knew exactly how to handle that part of the checkride.

My guess is there is some confusion with the OP and what the DPE really wanted. The post appears to be second hand information from the student. My guess is DPE was wanting to see a list of ADs complied with in the aircraft log, not a permanent list with the airplane. Having a list of complied with ADs is not an odd request for a checkride. Keeping them separate from the aircraft logs and a list in the is not normal, nor required.

I’d be curious to get the DPE’s side of the story on this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
AeroLudite said:
I recently had a DPE decline to test an applicant because the ad compliance list wasn’t in the aircraft (present during oral pretest verification). A list of applicable ad’s was in maintenance log books and IA’s sign-off at last annual.
(Ie: in addition to AROW)
Is this new, or have I been missing something?
This a/c has previously been successfully used for four recent check rides with other /different DPE’s...
Click to expand...

Did you speak directly with the DPE? Did he/she explain exactly what they wanted and all of the details why they ended the checkride?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This is so twisted that is beyond my comprehension. I personally know 767 captains in Europe that never dealt with aircraft documents. They are safe, competent and with thousands of hours in their logbooks.
Yet, some DPEs in the US will pull whatever just to make things harder.
I don't understand why it should be that hard. It is completely unnecessary from my point of view.
 
Retro Manger said:
This is so twisted that is beyond my comprehension. I personally know 767 captains in Europe that never dealt with aircraft documents. They are safe, competent and with thousands of hours in their logbooks.
Yet, some DPEs in the US will pull whatever just to make things harder.
I don't understand why it should be that hard. It is completely unnecessary from my point of view.
Click to expand...

Air carriers don’t get messed with. Lots of corporate pilots get the complete shakedown when they land in France. I used to put together large binders just to keep those guys out of trouble with all of the right documentation during the no notice visits from the French version of our FAA.

I agree, some DPEs take it to another level. It seems in this particular instance the school could’ve emailed the DPE the documents he was seeking. No fault of the student.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Not only in France, but France is a bit bitter than everybody else.
SAFA random checks are all over.
It wasn't like that before though. Again, I'm in contact with plenty of old-school captains, currently they complain that all is about the paperwork. Nobody actually cares for "anything but".
This is a bit off-topic however. The thing is, DPEs have more power than they should. No way for a person to make a point against theirs. It is a autocracy in a way.
I've recently met with an extremely nice DPE. Flew together, had some fun. I tell people about that. However, it seems to be the exclusion not the norm.
When 'nice' is the exclusion, things have gone sideways.
 
Retro Manger said:
This is so twisted that is beyond my comprehension. I personally know 767 captains in Europe that never dealt with aircraft documents. They are safe, competent and with thousands of hours in their logbooks.
Yet, some DPEs in the US will pull whatever just to make things harder.
I don't understand why it should be that hard. It is completely unnecessary from my point of view.
Click to expand...
How many of those 767 captains in Europe were taking a U.S. Private Pilot checkride and had to comply with the ACS requirements for aircraft documentation?
 
MauleSkinner said:
How many of those 767 captains in Europe were taking a U.S. Private Pilot checkride and had to comply with the ACS requirements for aircraft documentation?
Click to expand...
None. Or maybe only one in the mid-90s. And they are flying A320s, A330s, 737s and more. In Europe and Asia.

Point being - ACS is not a the Bible. There are plenty of pilots Worldwide that fly safely, without going through FAA current system. Which means, that system is not perfect, because people - as in this thread - are complaining about what ridiculous things prevent them for being licensed.

Now before jumping me on how good the system is and how "you should comply, because its the LAW!", please consider this:

You are going to rent a car. In a different state that you are coming from. Car rental asks you for your license, then give you the option - either you will pay for an hour with us, or you won't get a car.
You pay for the hour, so they can check can you drive and is your license fake or whatever, then they give you a car.
Then you go to another State and this repeats itself.
You don't drive for 4 months. Ooops. You gotta drive with us again. You might've forgotten.

How many times have you checked the TAGs of the rental you took?
How many cars have you owned and knowing their systems? The battery power? Is it drive-by-wire or no?
Did they asked you those questions at the DMV?
YET - millions of people drive cars on a daily basis.
I can't imagine having video courses or books on: HOW TO PASS YOUR DMV EXAM being sold at such quantity and by so many producers.

FAA rules are not perfect. Nothing is. DPEs exploit those. They torture students. More often than not. Every DPE wants a different thing. Every DPE tries to prove you un-prepared. You fight to prove otherwise. Getting a license is not a journey. It is a fistfight. Especially in the final stages.
I've never heard of a system that fails so many of its applicants. Yet, people are flying all over the World and at many places - with safer records than here.

Let me add something else:
Example A:
3 years ago, a pilot on a Private Checkride. DPE asks demo of a short field. Never used the flaps on take-off, because the instructor taught him that way. DPE fails him.

Example B:
5 years ago, same thing, DPE asks - if you turn off the MASTER, will the engine stop. Student hesitates, says "I think so". Failed.

Now, you tell me, were those legitimate failure reasons? It is sure as hell that the one that thread is about isn't.

Example A: Wasn't the right way to ask : show me a short field with FLAPS.
Example B: You need to study through this with your instructor because it is important.

I've just heard about 5 hour IR oral. Why? The pilot examined told me: How come the DPE would've know that I know everything?
He couldn't. Because you don't. Neither does he.
5 hour oral and I have no appetite to go to lunch. Let alone to go flying.

I've been asked about the elements of the ILS. There are 4. And I know FAA IR licensed pilots that do not know those. Should they be failed?
Come on.
 
Retro Manger said:
None. Or maybe only one in the mid-90s. And they are flying A320s, A330s, 737s and more. In Europe and Asia.

Point being - ACS is not a the Bible. There are plenty of pilots Worldwide that fly safely, without going through FAA current system. Which means, that system is not perfect, because people - as in this thread - are complaining about what ridiculous things prevent them for being licensed.

Now before jumping me on how good the system is and how "you should comply, because its the LAW!", please consider this:

You are going to rent a car. In a different state that you are coming from. Car rental asks you for your license, then give you the option - either you will pay for an hour with us, or you won't get a car.
You pay for the hour, so they can check can you drive and is your license fake or whatever, then they give you a car.
Then you go to another State and this repeats itself.
You don't drive for 4 months. Ooops. You gotta drive with us again. You might've forgotten.

How many times have you checked the TAGs of the rental you took?
How many cars have you owned and knowing their systems? The battery power? Is it drive-by-wire or no?
Did they asked you those questions at the DMV?
YET - millions of people drive cars on a daily basis.
I can't imagine having video courses or books on: HOW TO PASS YOUR DMV EXAM being sold at such quantity and by so many producers.

FAA rules are not perfect. Nothing is. DPEs exploit those. They torture students. More often than not. Every DPE wants a different thing. Every DPE tries to prove you un-prepared. You fight to prove otherwise. Getting a license is not a journey. It is a fistfight. Especially in the final stages.
I've never heard of a system that fails so many of its applicants. Yet, people are flying all over the World and at many places - with safer records than here.

Let me add something else:
Example A:
3 years ago, a pilot on a Private Checkride. DPE asks demo of a short field. Never used the flaps on take-off, because the instructor taught him that way. DPE fails him.

Example B:
5 years ago, same thing, DPE asks - if you turn off the MASTER, will the engine stop. Student hesitates, says "I think so". Failed.

Now, you tell me, were those legitimate failure reasons? It is sure as hell that the one that thread is about isn't.

Example A: Wasn't the right way to ask : show me a short field with FLAPS.
Example B: You need to study through this with your instructor because it is important.

I've just heard about 5 hour IR oral. Why? The pilot examined told me: How come the DPE would've know that I know everything?
He couldn't. Because you don't. Neither does he.
5 hour oral and I have no appetite to go to lunch. Let alone to go flying.

I've been asked about the elements of the ILS. There are 4. And I know FAA IR licensed pilots that do not know those. Should they be failed?
Come on.
Click to expand...

7/10 on the non-sequitur rant.
 
There's an option:
Make the one time payment to the DPE to include 3 attempts on the checkride. Or two.
Let's see how many useless complications there will be. Will the ad's on board will prevent from the completion of the exam.
I wonder...
This should be conclusive enough?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top