Negative Southwest, the pattern is full

It was a Boeing ... go figure! :rofl:
 
  • As Southwest flight 147 makes its final approach, the aircraft goes off course, flying east of the runway, and reportedly gets dangerously close to the air traffic control tower
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As I said elsewhere here:

This one a bit bothersome because the crew had already tried it once, knew there was windshear and vis was low, yet still continued as the needles just marched off the indicator.
 
Scary, it sure I would have been comfortable as a passenger
 
I didn't see any mention of this - if there is an existing thread, I apologize.

There was an SWA jet on the ILS 4 at LGA on Saturday that went missed, then came back around and almost hit the tower on it's second approach.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/southwest-737-laguardia-go-around

Take a look at the second approach in Google Earth. Once you click on the link, go to the left side data column, scroll to the bottom, and hit Export KML -> "baro+avg(EGM96 - baro)."

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?ica...m=14.7&showTrace=2024-03-23&leg=4&trackLabels

Looking at that last approach... man..... this is WAAY worse IMO than the door popping off. This should be getting more media attention, but the door is more "dramatic". Interestingly, there is a note on the LGA ILS 4 prohibiting coupled AP use. Maybe someone was rusty?
 
The mods will probably be along in a little while to either delete or merge.
 
gearFX said:
Where did this overlay image come from? The bottom of that dip seems lower than 200 feet (to me) but maybe there is some foreshortening happening from the perspective angle playing tricks on my eyes. I believe LGA tower is 233 feet tall.
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Where is it factually documented that they got no lower than 200 feet?
 
gearFX said:
Where did this overlay image come from? The bottom of that dip seems lower than 200 feet (to me) but maybe there is some foreshortening happening from the perspective angle playing tricks on my eyes. I believe LGA tower is 233 feet tall.
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It came from here:

Take a look at the second approach in Google Earth. Once you click on the link, go to the left side data column, scroll to the bottom, and hit Export KML -> "baro+avg(EGM96 - baro)."

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?ica...m=14.7&showTrace=2024-03-23&leg=4&trackLabels

It’s based on GPS altitude. It’s accurate, which is why it’s scary. I wonder if any doorbell cams captured it at its lowest point.
 
I’m gonna venture a guess that this approach was hand-flown.
 
That overlay is crazy! A ten hour, pre solo, student in a c-150, in a hurricane could fly a better approach after chugging a bottle of Robitussin!(sp?). Surprised they weren’t jumping from the tower!
 
Someone ought to make a graphic that shows the nominal flight path of the ILS next to the actual path flown.
 
Not to ignore the serious discussion here, but I must say I love the thread title.
 
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How does something like this happen??
 
It happens. 20 to 30 not crosswind, your in the soup, all lined up stable, crab angle correct, needles not drifting, then all of a sudden the wind quits, or more drastically it is from the opposite side. Boom off you go.
 
Mikey52 said:
It happens. 20 to 30 not crosswind, your in the soup, all lined up stable, crab angle correct, needles not drifting, then all of a sudden the wind quits, or more drastically it is from the opposite side. Boom off you go.
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When the wind quits your crab angle goes away.
 
I noticed a guy talking the first couple of times. I assume he was the Capt, which means the FO was flying. Once they diverted, the female was on the radio. I assume Capt took controls. Certainly not an excuse, but possibly a reason.
Makes you wonder about hiring low timers, especially certain classes. That may be incorrect, but many will assume.
 
Though I work in a SWA plurality shop, everybody except the regionals and NK/F9/B6 type outfits are represented in the flight room. I hear all the inside baseball/training department stories, to include some folks associated with certain flights profiled on the media. No, I'm not gonna doxx my coworkers.

BL, it's not just SWA, but it's not "complicated" either. We [those of us who make a living in flight training] all know and understand the dynamic.

I'll refrain from spelling it out, lest the usual suspects start hyperventilating about it again. My only dog in the fight as a revenue pax, is my distaste for the practice of initial OJT with revenue pax on board. Much to say about the nuances behind that practice, but digressing here for brevity.

The good news is that the hiring slowdown theoretically presents the opportunity for these shops to play catch up on the safety, mentoring, and training standards coming out of newhire training. For the sake of the industry and the flying public, let's hope this is successful before they roll snake eyes again and make the Colgan political reactions seem like dress rehearsal.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Though I work in a SWA plurality shop, everybody except the regionals and NK/F9/B6 type outfits are represented in the flight room. I hear all the inside baseball/training department stories, to include some folks associated with certain flights profiled on the media. No, I'm not gonna doxx my coworkers.

BL, it's not just SWA, but it's not "complicated" either. We [those of us who make a living in flight training] all know and understand the dynamic.

I'll refrain from spelling it out, lest the usual suspects start hyperventilating about it again. My only dog in the fight as a revenue pax, is my distaste for the practice of initial OJT with revenue pax on board. Much to say about the nuances behind that practice, but digressing here for brevity.

The good news is that the hiring slowdown theoretically presents the opportunity for these shops to play catch up on the safety, mentoring, and training standards coming out of newhire training. For the sake of the industry and the flying public, let's hope this is successful before they roll snake eyes again and make the Colgan political reactions seem like dress rehearsal.
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It isn't just the OJT SWA folks--remember the Southwest captain who seized the controls and drove a 737 into the runway nose first, collapsing the gear? Whatever happened to her after being dismissed?
 
DavidWhite said:
It’s not exactly rocket surgery with a flight director.
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I mean, it can be when your crosscheck is atrophied all to hell from not doing it enough beyond that bi-yearly surge in recurrent.

See the paradoxical thing about hand-eye crosscheck is, much like situational awareness.... if you don't have it, you won't miss it. :fingerwag:
 
hindsight2020 said:
I mean, it can be when your crosscheck is atrophied all to hell from not doing it enough beyond that bi-yearly surge in recurrent.

See the paradoxical thing about hand-eye crosscheck is, much like situational awareness.... if you don't have it, you won't miss it. :fingerwag:
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It’s not THAT much of a crosscheck when everything is in the same spot. I mean you’d think folks would hand fly approaches every once in a while to maintain some semblance of proficiency. I know I do.
 
DavidWhite said:
It’s not exactly rocket surgery with a flight director.
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There’s other places to get better info on this specific flight, but my takeaways are systems and conditions. If your FD is guidance limited in APP mode, know what those limits are. If the winds are shearing from 50kts tail at 1k AGL to 50kts cross at 500agl to nose-ish at the surface, that’s a recipe for disaster.

Focus on the FD, forget the crosscheck, and there but for the grace of God…
 
hindsight2020 said:
I mean, it can be when your crosscheck is atrophied all to hell from not doing it enough beyond that bi-yearly surge in recurrent.

See the paradoxical thing about hand-eye crosscheck is, much like situational awareness.... if you don't have it, you won't miss it. :fingerwag:
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The assumption I made the captain would have been the PF using the hud, if not on the first attempt then definitely on the second but the sequence of voices on the radio don’t align with that….


Edit to add:


My experiences around the SWA culture is they are not children of the magenta line but it’s obviously anecdotal and I’ve lived in base for quite a while now so it’s old intel. It used to be anything below cat 1 was hand flown. Since that approach isn’t authorized coupled I kinda figured with weather and the notes it would have been a left seat hud approach. But. It’s just a guess just like your assertion they couldn’t fly an ILS without the ap.
 
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I'm just happy they didn't put it in the East River or hit the control tower. Way too much of the former has happened over the years.
 
Piperonca said:
It isn't just the OJT SWA folks--remember the Southwest captain who seized the controls and drove a 737 into the runway nose first, collapsing the gear? Whatever happened to her after being dismissed?
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To be fair, it was the F/O that messed up that approach. The Captain took over and made the mistake of trying to salvage the landing. She should have taken over and gone around.

Same thing for this current incident. The mistake was likely that they didn't go-around when the localizer deviation occurred instead of trying to salvage it.

A 737 is not as nimble as a G.A. airplane. It takes longer to fix deviations.
 
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