Negative ANN article about Cirrus

Slick planes, but they do have a higher than normal accident rate compared to other GA aircraft. The only issue I ever had with the Cirrus is that the FAA actually certified an aircraft that is unrecoverable in a spin. That's why the BRS was required for the Cirrus to be certified in the first place. The BRS was never a safety marketing tool. These planes can't legally be flown without one.

Don't care much for the legalities, and turmoil. It sounds like a bad-spoof on a child custody case. Drama...drama, etc.
 
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Slick planes, but they do have a higher than normal accident rate compared to other GA aircraft. The only issue I ever had with the Cirrus is that the FAA actually certified an aircraft that is unrecoverable in a spin. That's why the BRS was REQUIRED for the Cirrus to be certified in the first place. The BRS was never a safety marketing tool. These planes can't legally be flown without one.

They said the same thing about Yankees, but they didn't have the BRS.
 
Slick planes, but they do have a higher than normal accident rate compared to other GA aircraft. The only issue I ever had with the Cirrus is that the FAA actually certified an aircraft that is unrecoverable in a spin.
What's your source for this claim? Cirrus says:

As a footnote, when Cirrus applied for European certification, the authorities there(initially JAA, later EASA), when first evaluating the Cirrus SR20 agreed with the principles of the FAA/ELOS approach but had further questions. A series of spins were performed on their initiative. While not a complete program they reported no unusual characteristics.

http://whycirrus.com/engineering/stall-spin.aspx

Seems to me that "no unusual [spin] characteristics" is not the same as "unrecoverable in a spin." What's your source for claiming the spins are unrecoverable?

My understanding is that the Cirrus used the presence of the CAPS to *avoid* full spin certification testing. Which, again, is not the same as stating that the aircraft cannot be recovered from a spin.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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You may be right, but since the plane didn't complete the spin certification and couldn't be certified without the BRS, then difference is essentially moot.
 
You may be right, but since the plane didn't complete the spin certification and couldn't be certified without the BRS, then difference is essentially moot.

The plane did complete a partial spin series for EASA certification as they didn't want to sign off on the elos determination by the FAA.

In case you didn't notice, but this thread had sort of moved on from the usual unfounded cirrus bashing.
 
Any port in a storm.

The plane did complete a partial spin series for EASA certification as they didn't want to sign off on the elos determination by the FAA.

In case you didn't notice, but this thread had sort of moved on from the usual unfounded cirrus bashing.
 
You may be right, but since the plane didn't complete the spin certification and couldn't be certified without the BRS, then difference is essentially moot.
So, don't understand. You claimed that Cirrus aircraft couldn't be recovered from a spin. How is the fact that they, in fact HAVE demonstrated the ability to recover, "moot"?

Basically, the FAA demanded a level of safety equivalent to that demonstrated by a fully-spin-certified aircraft. They were apparently satisfied with the Cirrus. Considering most stall-spin accidents occur at altitudes too low for recovery, what difference does it make?

Ron Wanttaja
 
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04/17/2013 Notice of HearingDefendants' Notice of Evidentiary Hearing

04/17/2013 Response (Generic)(Supplemental) of Plaintiff to Defendants Motion For Enforcement of Settlement

04/17/2013 Exhibits Filed into Evidenceas to Supp. Response of Plaintiff to Defendants Motion for Enforcement

04/17/2013 Motion (Generic)for Entry of Order Compelling Defendants Performance Under Settlement Agreement

04/17/2013 Motion to compelExhibits to Motion for Entry of Order Compelling Performance under Settlement Agree
I do intend to order these, but with the hearing scheduled next week, I'll wait and get 'em all at the same time.

Ron Wanttaja
 
You may be right, but since the plane didn't complete the spin certification and couldn't be certified without the BRS, then difference is essentially moot.
If you're looking to have an argument about the Cirrus itself, you'd best start a new thread. Many of those who would be happy to debate the issue with you are not interested in this "ANN vs. Cirrus" thread and thus don't read it. Post your comment as a new thread, and you'll get all the playmates you want.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Slick planes, but they do have a higher than normal accident rate compared to other GA aircraft. The only issue I ever had with the Cirrus is that the FAA actually certified an aircraft that is unrecoverable in a spin. That's why the BRS was required for the Cirrus to be certified in the first place. The BRS was never a safety marketing tool. These planes can't legally be flown without one.

Are you workin' for Zoom, or just spewing the same old crap you hear at the airport? The Cirrus is NOT unrecoverable in a spin, it was just a helluva lot cheaper to get the ELOS certification than it was to do a full spin testing program. But they did spin 'em. (I've talked to the test pilot who did it, in fact.)

If you want to hate the Cirrus, at least hate it for a reason that's true. :thumbsup: Kinda reminds me of all the people who are surprised that a guy my size fits in a Mooney - In fact, it's the most comfortable airplane I've ever flown, despite its reputation as being small and cramped. That's when I remind folks that Al Mooney was 6'5" - An inch taller than me.

Learn. Be informed.
 
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Hey Ron, I've been away for a while...did I miss anything? :wink2:

Nauga,
RAH15/NaN
 
Hey Ron, I've been away for a while...did I miss anything? :wink2:

Nauga,
RAH15/NaN
Nauga, 'ol buddy....good to hear from you. The Cirrus-Campbell case seems to be making the rounds; there are a number of the RAH-15 that I haven't heard from for years, but you're the third of those who's dropped me a line in the past month. Cirrus' attorney seems to be doing a good job, but I don't think he's having as much fun as Tony did.

I think it's quite likely this case will be settled next Thursday, at a re-scheduled hearing date with the judge. Campbell's attorney will have a hard time arguing why the settlement shouldn't be documented in writing (vs. using the transcript) and signed by both parties, and I don't think Campbell wants to be forced to answer questions about the NTSB case. The attorneys are still spittin' and hissing at each other, but I think both are motivated to get this settled. I'll post a history/summary after the case is closed.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Interesting turn-up in the case record today:

04/23/2013 Notice (Generic)
Defendants' Notice of Remand of Defendants' 2nd Motion for Protective Order

The "Defendant's 2nd Motion for Protective Order" was the motion that wanted to make the NTSB case out-of-bounds. Looking at online explanations for "Remand" , to me this seems to be requesting that the judge rule on the motion for the Protective Order. But that seems weird, if the sides have already agreed to a settlement and Cirrus already has the aircraft back.

Any one of our legal bretheren able to interpret this for me?

Court hearing is Thursday. I'll order any rulings and the previous filings, then.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I believe they may be asking for the Motion to be heard by another court.
 
I believe they may be asking for the Motion to be heard by another court.

Oooh, good point. On the motion itself, Campbell's attorney says that he would "...very respectfully like to discuss at the hearing on this motion the possibility of having this case transferred." Could be part of that.

The motion also says that the last hearing, "resulted in the Court stating that Mr. Campbell 'needs to stop monkeying around'..." so obviously the defense is a wee bit concerned on how Campbell has come across. The defense motion also says that the judge claimed that Campbell left crazy messages on the voice mail of the judge's assistant. This was mentioned in a Plaintiff motion a while back, but we weren't sure if it was referring to an assistant of the judge or some sort of court liaison at the Plaintiff's law firm.

How does the court typically handle this sort of thing? Surely it'd be too easy to get cases delayed by harassing the judge or his/her assistants, if procedure required switching judges every time it happened.

In any case, if Campbell is looking to get a change of judges, it really appears that the settlement is off the table.

Ron Wanttaja
 
if the sides have already agreed to a settlement and Cirrus already has the aircraft back.

Does Cirrus have the aircraft, or just a set of keys?

Floghtaware doesn't show it moving, not saying that is dispositive.
 
Does Cirrus have the aircraft, or just a set of keys?

Flightaware doesn't show it moving, not saying that is dispositive.
During the verbal settlement discussion, Campbell's attorney says, "Cirrus will have the opportunity tomorrow, if it would like, to pick up and take possession of the aircraft at its current location..." I would think they would have jumped at the opportunity.

I can see their not moving it too far; within a few days, the transfer was at issue (Kindred Spirit not signing the bill of sale) and Cirrus may not have wanted to move it out of state quite yet.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Latest filing:

04/24/2013 Motion for Sanctions
Defendants' Motion for Sanctions against Attorney Jason Ward Johnson


Ron Wanttaja
 
Latest filing:

04/24/2013 Motion for Sanctions
Defendants' Motion for Sanctions against Attorney Jason Ward Johnson

Ron Wanttaja

I'm sure Jason is governing himself accordingly...
 
Interesting turn-up in the case record today:

04/23/2013 Notice (Generic)
Defendants' Notice of Remand of Defendants' 2nd Motion for Protective Order

The "Defendant's 2nd Motion for Protective Order" was the motion that wanted to make the NTSB case out-of-bounds.

Got too curious, so went ahead and ordered it (just before the request for sanctions was filed, sigh). Pretty prosaic, Campbell's attorney is withdrawing the motion for Protective Order because of the settlement.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Attachments

  • Defendant's notice for remand 4-23-2013.pdf
    117.2 KB · Views: 16
Got too curious, so went ahead and ordered it (just before the request for sanctions was filed, sigh). Pretty prosaic, Campbell's attorney is withdrawing the motion for Protective Order because of the settlement.

Ron Wanttaja

That was signed the 23rd, sure sounds like they consider the settlement to be still on the table.
 
By the way, I should mention the contents of some of the other paperwork filed recently. On the 8th, Campbell filed a Notice of Hearing Settlement, stating that the judge would be asked to rule on the Settlement at the 9 April hearing, rather than on the various other motions.

However, PRIOR to that was the Cirrus motion re-scheduling the hearing to the 25th. Cirrus' notice of re-scheduling was filed at 1:43 on the afternoon of the 8th, while Campbell's notice was filed at 9:01 on the morning of the 9th...just 90 minutes before the hearing was originally going to take place.
I don't feel so bad about being confused... Cirrus' attorney AND THE JUDGE were confused as well. The hearing on the 9th was actually held after all, a big surprise to his honor and Mr. Johnson. A full transcript starts on Page 9 of the attached.

Some tid-bits:

"THE COURT: I was caught off guard. When I looked at this yesterday, the last thing I saw was that it had been rescheduled for April the 25th."

A bit later, after both sides try to wedge their sides of the story in:

"THE COURT: Hang on just a second. I didn't even know this was on calendar today, guys, so I don't know what's happened. My secretary didn‘t know it was on the calendar today. I may not consider it to be on the calendar today."

A more prolonged exchange:

"MR. JOHNSON: To be clear, is Your Honor hearing the motion now?
THE COURT: I don't know what I'm doing, Mr. Johnson. I didn't expect you guys to be here this morning.
MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. MERCER: We —- we never canceled our hearing, although after the settlement, he canceled his motions ——
THE COURT: But you didn't have the right to add other things onto your time without my approval, either --
MR. MERCER: Well, we -—
THE COURT: —— did you, Mr. Mercer?
MR. MERCER: Well, we did not realize that we needed to request approval to switch —— once we had a hearing slot at 10:30 ——
THE COURT: Anything you put on my calendar has to go through my JA or me. You don't just have the right to pick and choose what you're going to hear and then at the last minute send out a notice. 12 MR. MERCER: Well, I apologize. I didn't —— I didn't realize that.
THE COURT: I'm assuming, Mr. Johnson, you're objecting to anything being heard this morning.
MR. JOHNSON: I am, Your Honor. I was forced to drive up here —~
THE COURT: I haven't had a chance to read anything. I don't know what you‘re doing here today."

The entire transcript is in the attached. Bon Appetit!

Ron Wanttaja
 

Attachments

  • Exhibits Filed into Evidence - Plaintiff's supplemental response 4-17-2013.pdf
    761.3 KB · Views: 22
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Does Cirrus have the aircraft, or just a set of keys?
During the verbal settlement discussion, Campbell's attorney says, "Cirrus will have the opportunity tomorrow, if it would like, to pick up and take possession of the aircraft at its current location..." I would think they would have jumped at the opportunity.

Well, the transcript from the 9 April hearing (posted previously) provides a bit more insight:

"MR MERCER: ... The very next day, Mr. Jason Johnson came to my office to collect the aircraft keys —— one of17 the terms in the settlement transcript was we were just going to voluntarily turn over the aircraft. All of the terms of the settlement very simply are contained in that transcript.


"We fully performed. We turned over the FAA bill of sale to transfer title. Mr. Johnson took that from my office. We turned over the keys to the hangar and to the aircraft. Mr. Johnson took the keys.


"And we also produced an inventory of other documents that we asked Mr. Johnson to just signand acknowledge he was leaving our office with, such as the maintenance logbooks and that type of thing. He took the —~ he took the records, took the keys, refused to sign any acknowledgment but he left with everything."

Still don't know if Cirrus physically took possession of the airplane. Interesting that Campbell turned over hangar keys as well as the aircraft keys; this kind of implies that it was not in the hangar at his airpark home.

More to come.

Ron Wanttaja
 
OK, attached are Cirrus' recent filings regarding the agreement. Two basic arguments. First, that the wording of the verbal agreement was ambiguous and deliberately deceptive:

"...this is effectively an admission by Mr. Mercer that he was trying the 'hide the ball' with respect to an oral-vs.-written release...."

"Even now, the Campbell entities seem focused on leaving a loophole in the settlement agreement that would potentially enable them to resume this litigation or instigate new litigation..."

Second, that Florida state law allows verbal settlements, but that releases must be written.

I'm expecting this will be settled at tomorrow's hearing. It probably won't make the online file listing until Friday, and the turnaround time may not allow getting a copy by the end of the day.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Attachments

  • Plaintiff's supplemental response - Defense motion for enforcement of settlement 4-17-2013.pdf
    365.4 KB · Views: 12
  • Plaintiff Motion compelling Defense Settlement.pdf
    370.2 KB · Views: 12
Still don't know if Cirrus physically took possession of the airplane. Interesting that Campbell turned over hangar keys as well as the aircraft keys; this kind of implies that it was not in the hangar at his airpark home.

I have it on good authority that he moved from Haller several months ago... hey, maybe with that new bride he mentioned!
 
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Interesting that Campbell turned over hangar keys as well as the aircraft keys; this kind of implies that it was not in the hangar at his airpark home.

I thought we already knew that he'd moved the plane elsewhere? Didn't he have some rant on his web site about how he was forced to hide the plane from Cirrus because they were trying to "steal" it?
 
I thought we already knew that he'd moved the plane elsewhere? Didn't he have some rant on his web site about how he was forced to hide the plane from Cirrus because they were trying to "steal" it?
Well, if you believe Campbell... :)

I don't know of Cirrus thought it was stored elsewhere. One entry in the Request for Admissions filed by Cirrus a while back asked Campbell to admit or deny that "The Aircraft is stored by KSA at Haller Airpark in Green Cove Springs, Clay County, Florida." Campbell denied it, but then, he denied nearly everything in the answers to the R for A.

Ron Wanttaja
 
"The Aircraft is stored by KSA at Haller Airpark in Green Cove Springs, Clay County, Florida."

Campbell denied it

And in his mind, that could be because

  • It's such a POS that he won't call it an aircraft
  • It was stored by Campbell, not KSA
  • He believes Haller Airpark only includes the common areas
  • Nobody defined "is"
  • etc
  • etc
  • etc
 
Well, if you believe Campbell... :)

I don't know of Cirrus thought it was stored elsewhere. One entry in the Request for Admissions filed by Cirrus a while back asked Campbell to admit or deny that "The Aircraft is stored by KSA at Haller Airpark in Green Cove Springs, Clay County, Florida." Campbell denied it, but then, he denied nearly everything in the answers to the R for A.

Ron Wanttaja

Did he ever answer any of the interogatories ? I thought the only answer his attorney ever managed to write was 'the question is overaly broad blabalabla'. He wouldn't even confirm his name.
 
Did he ever answer any of the interogatories ? I thought the only answer his attorney ever managed to write was 'the question is overaly broad blabalabla'. He wouldn't even confirm his name.

Well, I was going to research the history of the case a bit anyway, so let’s take a look at his response time on the Interrogatories, Requests for Admission, and the Requests for Production/To Produce. From a brief bit of online research, it looks like the receiver of such filings usually has 30 days.

Cirrus filed its lawsuit on 2 September 2011. Cirrus filed all three (Admissions, Interrogatories, and Production) on the 19th of that month. The case file shows that Campbell hadn’t been served as of a month later, but service was accepted on 25 October. On the same day, a motion to dismiss was filed, so we can presume that Campbell had his first pair of lawyers by that point.

On the 9th of December (about 45 days later), Campbell responded to the Request for Admissions. The first Request for Admissions was “Defendant James R. Campbell (“Campbell”) is an individual who resides in Green Cove Springs, Clay County, Florida.” Campbell’s answer was “Defendants cannot jointly admit or deny the statement….” The same response was given to all 29 questions.

If this had been the only issue, the answers should have easily been filed with 30 days. Why two weeks longer? Perhaps it was a valid, critical legal point that needed researching (I’m not a lawyer). It could also reflect a difficulty in getting the Defendant to cooperate; if you don’t have an answer, find some way to delay the proceedings a bit.

Cirrus re-served the same three items to Campbell and KSA separately on the 19th of December 2011 (just ten days later). The clock was running again.

Just before the response deadline, Campbell’s attorneys filed for an extension of time…at the same time they asked the Judge for permission to withdraw from the case. The motion to withdraw claimed, “There have arisen irreconcilable differences between counsel for the Defendants and the Defendants.” The motion for more time cited the motion to withdraw.

The court date to hear the motion to withdraw and the motion for an extension of time was set for the 16th of February. Campbell provided answers to the Request for Admissions almost three weeks earlier, on the 2nd of February 2012. Again, this was almost 45 days from the date the amended questions were submitted. And, note that the motion for extension had not yet been granted.

The judge issued an order releasing the attorneys on the 21st of February. The order did not mention an extension of time for the outstanding Requests for Production and the Interrogatories.

Campbell was given 30 days to find a new attorney. 29 days later, he submitted a hand-written plea for more time… claiming he’d just received notice that his attorneys had been released. At that point, he was 61 days behind in his responses. Cirrus filed for a summary judgment due to Campbell’s lack of compliance with the judge’s order, and a court date of 21 May was set.

On the 18th of May, a new lawyer filed papers indicating he was now representing Campbell (Campbell’s third attorney). As of this point, Campbell’s responses were 120 days late.

After the court hearing on the 21st, the judge ordered Campbell to respond to the Request for Production and the Interrogatories within ten days, or by 1 June 2012. The actual responses were (wait for it…) late, but only by a couple of days (4 June).

On the 29th of October, 2012, Cirrus again filed a set of Interrogatories and a Request for Production.

Campbell responded to the Request for Production about 23 days later (21 November), and at the same time, filed an objection to the Interrogatories. The objection was that the number of Interrogatories exceeded the 30 allowed by Florid Rules of Civil Procedure.

Twelve days later, Campbell’s third attorney moved to withdraw. He cited, “Defendants have failed to substantially fulfill their obligations to the Law Firm…furthermore, the Law Firm’s representation has been recently rendered unreasonably difficult by Defendants.” It also pointed out that the firm had prepared a counterclaim for Campbell, which is probably part of the reason for Cirrus demanding written releases as part of the settlement.

As of this point, the clock wasn’t running on any Requests…the one for Production had been answered, and the one for Interrogatories was held off by the objection.

On the 15th of January, the judge granted the motion to withdraw. He gave Campbell only ten days to find a new attorney. Three days later, Cirrus withdrew enough of the Interrogatories to satisfy the objection, and the clock was running again.

Campbell had a new lawyer a week later (the scheduling of a deposition in early February probably was probably the cause of the rapid action). On the 27th of February, he responded to Cirrus’ latest interrogatories… 40 days after they were filed, but only 33 days after the new attorney had joined the case.

Cirrus filed more Requests for Production two weeks later, but they were basically overcome by events, with the preliminary out-of-court settlement.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Attachments

  • file listing 4-24-2013.pdf
    25.5 KB · Views: 11
I wish I looked that happy in my driver's license photo....:)

Ron Wanttaja

Alcohol probably was involved.

So much drama and Jim isn't even testifying yet.

Mercer sounds like a real piece of work.
 
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Alcohol probably was involved.
If so, Campbell should find out what it was, and buy a bottle for his OWN lawyers.

(You know a thread has been going on too long when you start stealing jokes from Abraham Lincoln...)

The online listing was updated today:

04/26/2013 Order (Generic) on pending motions


So it looks like the judge has ruled. Don't know if the case is actually over yet, but expect so. I'll order this item plus a couple of the previous ones on Monday.

Assuming that the hearing was the end, I may order a transcript as well. The hearing was only supposed to be 15 minutes long, so it can't be too many pages.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Assuming that the hearing was the end, I may order a transcript as well. The hearing was only supposed to be 15 minutes long, so it can't be too many pages.

I wonder whether the hearing will contain some form of 'and I dont want to see any of you idiots ever again' from the bench.
 
I can't wait for the Mercer v. Johnson celebrity boxing match.
 
I can't wait for the Mercer v. Johnson celebrity boxing match.

I dont think there will be a boxing match, but I have a feeling that there will be some exchange of paperwork with the bar associations disciplinary review committee.

(If I was a party to this suit, I would probably refer both of those hotheads to the bar as their catfight probably delayed the resolution of the matter and was to the detriment of their respective clients.)
 
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