James331
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James331
NA Whole-house backup generators
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chartbundle
One interesting thing I found out from a local electrician is that for my panel, there's a $50 or so lockout(probably $300 by the time an electrician installs it of course) I can put on it that will let me not need a new subpanel or transfer switch, it simply covers the main breaker and the generator breaker so only one can be active at a time. Turn off the main, turn off the loads you don't want on the generator, move the lockout, and then turn on the generator breaker. Obviously this isn't a nice automated system but it's cheap. Of course, my panel is full so I may be better off with a subpanel for just the generator loads anyway.
I have an 80KVA generac on a 1000 gallon propane tank. Even running for a few days doesn't end up making an appreciable dent in the tank.
denverpilot
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80?! What the heck you doing there that needs that?!
80KVA will drive the whole 400A service. This is what happens when you have moron engineers drawing up the plans (I have unkind things to say about KTA after getting screwed by them twice). I told them to separate the panels for essential and non-essential loads but they just sized things to handle the entire load. It is kind of impressive to yank the massive 400A switch on the side of my house and watch that thing fire up.
denverpilot
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Dang. 400A Service. Haha. Out here they’d be checking to see if you had a grow house in your barn. LOL.
Clark1961
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They're checking anyway...CBI/CSP/Local Sheriff flies surveys at night looking for warm outbuildings. They even fly single engine prop over the foothills at night. Pretty insane activity just to try to identify meth labs and grow houses. Of course my info is from 03 so maybe they've wised up since then but sorta doubt it.
I don't think you spot meth houses by heat signature. Most of the work on remote sensing applications for that tend to involve detection of the off-products given off by the production.
Of course, now that there is much more efficient illumination than the old mercury-halides or whatever people have traditionally used, the grow houses are going to be harder to spot based on IR as well.
Of course, now that there is much more efficient illumination than the old mercury-halides or whatever people have traditionally used, the grow houses are going to be harder to spot based on IR as well.
Clark1961
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They don't call it "cooking meth" for nothing. Not that I know anything about it and I've never heard of any meth labs burning.
I used to have a 400 gallon reef aquarium in my living room with a bazillion watts of halide and VHO lighting on it. You could see the glow through the window blinds.
About once a month I'd have a cop knock on the door just to ask if everything was ok in the neighborhood, and after craning their neck enough to see the tank they'd relax considerably and wish me a good day and excuse themselves. Lol
About once a month I'd have a cop knock on the door just to ask if everything was ok in the neighborhood, and after craning their neck enough to see the tank they'd relax considerably and wish me a good day and excuse themselves. Lol
denverpilot
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They used the power bills as the trigger for the latest grow house raid out here, is what we all heard via the press (for whatever that’s worth these days). Didn’t sound like they needed any FLIR or special toys at all, just “cooperation” from IREA. Well that and probably a stake out. But who knows, maybe it was a no-knock raid.
It’s nice to know if I turn on the space heaters for a month and the house doesn’t burn down, a Sheriff will be by, maybe with some friends dressed in hut-hut Tackleberry gear, late at night. LOL. A secondary way to signal for help! Hahaha.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
We have 400A service at our house, too. No idea why the builders put it in, but I'm not complaining.
The size of service crept up over the years. Initially 60A was more than enough, but then the advent of electric clothes dryers, electric ranges, and air conditioning really increased the demand to the point where 200A was pretty much the standard. With the larger luxury houses, they were even recommending 400A. Of course this was before things started getting energy efficient. With LED lighting, geothermal heat, a lot of spray foamed insulation, my load typically isn't anywhere near the size of the service. 6KVA isn't atypical.
Lindberg
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Do you have a source? I've seen nothing saying I can't do the scheduled maintenance on my Generac, only that it had to be done with Generac parts.
Lindberg
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I think it has as much to do with panel size and circuit capacity as actual load. We have 400amp service, and the load calculations for 85% were way lower than that.
Service has nothing to do with panel size. It's based on computed load.
I need to look into something for our house. We have no gas service though- no natural gas or LP. I don't really want to add it for a generator.
I was considering a generator that runs off a tractor PTO and just having a transfer switch/connection outside the house in case it's needed. That way I've got one less engine to maintain and it should have enough output to run the house I'd think.
I was considering a generator that runs off a tractor PTO and just having a transfer switch/connection outside the house in case it's needed. That way I've got one less engine to maintain and it should have enough output to run the house I'd think.
They're available. Up to about 25KVA or so.
The size of your generator is independent from the size of your service panel. It is usually governed by the startup load on your biggest consumer, e.g. a heat pump + the other usual loads like refrigerators and some lighting.
denverpilot
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Just troll around the various forums, most of these “forced” maintenance contracts seem to be buried behind the “must have a licensed dealer install” clauses you get told AFTER purchase so there’s plenty of angry posts about it online. It does seem to also be somehow tied to whether or not you bought Internet monitoring gadgetry for the thing, too, for some manufacturers. Buried in the fine print that some licensed dealer has to put that stuff in, and a service contract must be maintained with them. Probably depends on size and what-not, too.
I looked at those and found them to be really expensive for what they would do. And my tractor doesn’t have an automatic oil pressure or overheat shutdown (could be added pretty easily, but not a factory option, it’d be third party or I’d build it myself with a few transistors and sensors and a solenoid to kill the fuel) so there’s that.
And when it’s snowing and the power is out, I don’t want to be outside swapping the PTO generator on and off with the three point snowblower attachment and having the house go dead so I can plow the driveway.
So... I decided it was a really bad option for me. Might work for some.
Lindberg
Final Approach
The dealer who installed mine wanted a ton for a service contract. Their best hook is that if you have a contract, they don't charge for emergency or after hours and you get priority during widespread outages. The guy who installed said I could do the service myself with generac filters as long as I keep records, and it's easier than working on my car. The written warranty says the scheduled maintenance is "recommended" and "should" be performed by a dealer. Nothing about voiding it. Although I'm sure that they're less likely to say an issue was caused by poor maintenance of a dealer is involved.
Eh? I have no service contract on my Generac nor was one even offered. I've done the maintenance. Generac's design makes it easy. It's easier changing the oil and coolant on the generator than it is in my car.
Stewartb
Final Approach
The topic is a backup generator and guys are talking about gensets big enough to run a multi-story commercial building at peak demand with power to spare. What a waste of resources. I have friends with remote lodges that run their well appointed lodge buildings, multiple guide cabins, and out buildings on 12kw generators that are utilized at a small portion of output for the majority of the time. They’ve added smaller units for primary use as a result. I have city friends that run portable 2000w generators for backups and get by fine, but they’re on city water and have hot water heat. Size your backup power appropriately to get by. More than that is ****ing money away. I prefer to do that on airplanes.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
Yeah, we definitely would not have put in the backup power system we have. But the people who built the house put it in - we just benefit from it. Probably should change the oil, though, been 2 years. Still looks new though so it's hard for me to justify changing it.
Lindberg
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What you can do out in the woods, and what you can do in the city are vastly different questions. I ran everything we needed with a temporary connection to a portable generator putting out 5 KVA. But a portable generator is a PITA for longer than a day.
To install a fixed generator with an automatic transfer switch here, code requires that it have capacity for 85% of the potential load. So if you want to have the option to run everything, you need a gennie sized to run everything at the same time or have automatic load shedding capability. Even with load shedding modules on our large appliances, that meant 32kw for my house. I'd have been happier with smaller, but the inspector would not have.
When you go larger, you also can get into more reliable and quieter units, and the price per kw is lower.
We are essentially out in the woods and my big concern isn't a couple-hour outage which we've had but rarely. I'm more worried about being without power for days in the winter, I need to keep the deicer in the horse trough going along with our 3-Ton geothermal heating and the deep freeze/refrigerators. The geothermal is my biggest worry as I don't know of any good way to hook it up without powering the whole house and hence needing whole house backup.
I suppose extension cords and space heaters are a solution that could be done with the more common 2-5kw units but it seems pretty sub-optimal.
I suppose extension cords and space heaters are a solution that could be done with the more common 2-5kw units but it seems pretty sub-optimal.
wsuffa
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Yes, but you can also get the diesel polished to keep it fresh.
wsuffa
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If you have an older home, even if you're on natural gas you may need the pipe up sized to accommodate the increased flow demand of the genset. Especially true if you are contemplating inline/on-demand water heaters.
Not that much more expensive in the quantities I use, and knowing the engine will start (no alcohol contaminated crap mogas eating seals or clogging the carburetor) is priceless.
That's what I have. Cost zero, I made the interlock plate and installed it myself.
I don't have natural gas or LP service at all... that's what complicates everything.
Don't know where you are, but that's not the case most places The National Electrical Code requires the system to provide the FULL load when an automatic transfer switch is used. It makes no sense to do otherwise, you'd automatically throw more load on the generator than it could handle and it would be required to disconnect.
What you are confusing is how to determine what the "full load" is. Despite my moron engineers, the size of the main OCD or service is not the "full load." 85% is used a few places in the code to determine the circuit ampacity based on the expected load, but it's not some magic universal number. You need to do a proper load determination, which is involved as it varies with just what the loads and the nature of the occupancy is.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
Propane tanks are ugly, but not that expensive.
Hmm, like the 100# tanks you can still move in a pickup? One of those wouldn't be bad, I just wasn't sure how long they last. I don't really care about ugly tanks as much as the hassle of a tank lease.
Ted
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I don't know how long they last. Our 500 gallon tank at our house is about 12 years old (or at least it was installed here 12 years ago) and shows no signs of deterioration or age. They come to the house every so often to fill it (when I call them) and the price is pretty reasonable. I try not to let it get below 50% in the event of a long power outage.
Certainly you could put one in your pickup if you lived in an area where it would be impossible to get service at your property. The local gas company is pretty good to deal with, though.
The problem is not so much the capacity. It is the ability to create enough propane vapor. Not much of an issue in hot climates but can be a problem in locations with subzero temps.
As for your concern about prolonged outages. You don't have to run the Genny 24/7. 500 gal in a tank is going to last for weeks.
If you install an automatic switch for the entire panel load, you are going to end up with a huge genset. More typical are installs that cover a limited number of circuits. The generator has then to be sized to carry those circuits. A load shedding switch will further limit the capacity you have to install. The 3ton geothermal is going to be your biggest single load. What are you using for backup heat ? Propane furnace or electric heating strips ? Those strips for a 3ton should be around 10kW by themselves. One way to deal with them is to add a relais that locks them out while on the generator. Downside of that approach is that you would need an alternative source of heat.
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ElPaso Pilot
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I've done the tractor thing, and maintaining 60 hz via tractor throttle with various loads coming and going is just so-so.
If you are out in the woods, why not power up just as much of the house as you need with a decent sized portable generator, or even a welder?
No need for the automatic transfer if you understand the need to always, ALWAYS have the master breaker off when the gen is running, and supervise the process.
A double ended 220V cord with judicious load shedding can work well, I hear...
Clark1961
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Don’t know how they do things in your part of the country. Around here the propane vendor supplies the tank and you’re locked in as a customer. Alternatively you can buy a tank and then shop around each time you need a fill but almost nobody does that.
Around here gas plants just about give propane away in the summer so you can get some really good deals buying in bulk. Not an option for homeowners but it would work for a co-op.
Mine's underground. The small access hatch is all you see.
Clark1961
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Underground storage of propane is an interesting concept. Not sure I could ever do that even though it is a method that is pushed in urban areas.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
That's a much more attractive option, albeit more expensive.