NA Whole-house backup generators

Clark1961 said:
Underground storage of propane is an interesting concept. Not sure I could ever do that even though it is a method that is pushed in urban areas.
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My previous rural supplier offered it as well, for no additional cost.

Of course he also offered zero cost tank leases, and coincidentally is no longer in business.
 
Clark1961 said:
Don’t know how they do things in your part of the country. Around here the propane vendor supplies the tank and you’re locked in as a customer. Alternatively you can buy a tank and then shop around each time you need a fill but almost nobody does that.
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Regional differences. Customer owned tanks are the standard for buried tanks around here. The 100gal bottles are usually gas company owned.
 
How far must the generator and tank be from the Utility's pole?
Texas
I asked the local lineman and he said, "oh, 25-30 feet".
How can I be sure he's got it right? He sounded vague to me. Who to ask?
It's an AEP Texas pole.
 
Almost everyone’s 500 gallon tanks are above ground around here. A few people have 1000 gallon tanks. The county requires the 1000 gallon tanks have a bit more setback from structures than 500 gallon tanks. (Personally I want them both reasonably far away, but some people really tuck their 500 gallon tanks right up against out buildings and such. Not cool if you ask me.)

Mixture of owned and leased out here mostly leased. My lease is only $70/year and their gas price is rarely that much more than anyone else’s except the occasional “win over new customers price” from some of the newer propane companies out here, so the ROI isn’t there to buy a tank and pay for the required inspection after having the other one taken away.

It might be different if I were upgrading to a 1000 gallon tank, which I may do if we go with a propane genset on the house.

But more likely I would give the genset it’s own 500 gallon tank.

Can’t decide. Either way is a pain. To get the propane truck back to where the genset and it’s tank would go, means they have to come in the gates. The current tank is at the end of the driveway and very accessible even if it’s snowed, as long as I’ve cleared the driveway.

Saw my propane guy today. Slapped 200 gallons in my tank on his usual schedule and zipped off. Nice guy. He also managed NOT to get stung by the stupid wasps who had made another nest under the lid again. It was cold last night so they were moving real slow... he chucked all their neat crap out in the grass and went back to work.
 
By the way. Everyone I’ve ever seen do a large genset on 100 gallon tanks used two in parallel to get the flow rate high enough. Just as a side note. Looked like a hassle to me.
 
Around here a lot of people have underground tanks (and we are not in an urban area).
You have the option to lease or purchase the tank. Yes, a lease locks you into one supplier. I purchased mine outright (as did my neighbor). He keeps an eye on the propane prices and lets me know who is the cheapest. I don't use much. The propane is used only for hot water, some of the fireplaces, the generator, and some cooking (though that is going to be replaced by induction in the new kitchen). The heat/AC is done by geothermal heat pumps.
 
denverpilot said:
Almost everyone’s 500 gallon tanks are above ground around here. A few people have 1000 gallon tanks. The county requires the 1000 gallon tanks have a bit more setback from structures than 500 gallon tanks. (Personally I want them both reasonably far away, but some people really tuck their 500 gallon tanks right up against out buildings and such. Not cool if you ask me.)

Mixture of owned and leased out here mostly leased. My lease is only $70/year and their gas price is rarely that much more than anyone else’s except the occasional “win over new customers price” from some of the newer propane companies out here, so the ROI isn’t there to buy a tank and pay for the required inspection after having the other one taken away.

It might be different if I were upgrading to a 1000 gallon tank, which I may do if we go with a propane genset on the house.

But more likely I would give the genset it’s own 500 gallon tank.

Can’t decide. Either way is a pain. To get the propane truck back to where the genset and it’s tank would go, means they have to come in the gates. The current tank is at the end of the driveway and very accessible even if it’s snowed, as long as I’ve cleared the driveway.

Saw my propane guy today. Slapped 200 gallons in my tank on his usual schedule and zipped off. Nice guy. He also managed NOT to get stung by the stupid wasps who had made another nest under the lid again. It was cold last night so they were moving real slow... he chucked all their neat crap out in the grass and went back to work.
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I saw a 500 tank cook off once. The FD guys couldn’t cool things down so the tank would vent periodically. The flare was 20-30 feet long. Then I saw the results of a 10 pound bottle cooking off in an enclosed space. The space was rapidly converted to open.
 
Clark1961 said:
I saw a 500 tank cook off once. The FD guys couldn’t cool things down so the tank would vent periodically. The flare was 20-30 feet long. Then I saw the results of a 10 pound bottle cooking off in an enclosed space. The space was rapidly converted to open.
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Yeah have seen that too. Don’t want my tank anywhere close to my house, thanks. Know it’s not a common problem but still.... nope.

When I see those ones out right under the eaves of the barns out here I wonder how much the people like their barn. Ha.

Burying one seems like trading wasps for spiders and snakes. LOL. Okay not a big deal again, but no. Haha.
 
denverpilot said:
Ewwwww! Give me gas stovetops or give me death. Hate electric even induction.
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Current house has an ancient whirlpool electric range. The infrared thermometer sez the range elements are consistent. The BBQ thermometer sez the oven temperature control is accurate. I’m happy using it.

I did add a tee to the gas line to make it easy to convert to gas if I ever replace it.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah have seen that too. Don’t want my tank anywhere close to my house, thanks. Know it’s not a common problem but still.... nope.

When I see those ones out right under the eaves of the barns out here I wonder how much the people like their barn. Ha.

Burying one seems like trading wasps for spiders and snakes. LOL. Okay not a big deal again, but no. Haha.
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Buried fuel that is gaseous and heavier than air? No thanks.
 
Clark1961 said:
Current house has an ancient whirlpool electric range. The infrared thermometer sez the range elements are consistent. The BBQ thermometer sez the oven temperature control is accurate. I’m happy using it.

I did add a tee to the gas line to make it easy to convert to gas if I ever replace it.
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Our old place had some ancient JenAire thing that was electric. It worked fine but I hated it for 12 years.

Current place has propane stove and I love it. Some cheapie GE range we will probably replace someday but it even has a cute little small burner for “precise simmer” which is nice when needed. I do want bigger burners the next time around but it’s okay.

Can use it when the power is out, too. Just have to light it since the little spark ignitors don’t work when no electricity. But at least I can make coffee before going outside to freeze my butt off moving snow or getting the portable generator going. Ha.
 
a) how much is everyone paying for 500gals (or equival measure) propane?
b) need I notify home insurer of plans to put an incendiary device on my property?
 
denverpilot said:
Our old place had some ancient JenAire thing that was electric. It worked fine but I hated it for 12 years.

Current place has propane stove and I love it. Some cheapie GE range we will probably replace someday but it even has a cute little small burner for “precise simmer” which is nice when needed. I do want bigger burners the next time around but it’s okay.

Can use it when the power is out, too. Just have to light it since the little spark ignitors don’t work when no electricity. But at least I can make coffee before going outside to freeze my butt off moving snow or getting the portable generator going. Ha.
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I had a gas Jenaire in Butte. It was good for nothing except making a mess. Had gas range in Bailey, like you said it always worked and boiling water up there only took about 180 degrees. All coffee was Luke warm...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
a) how much is everyone paying for 500gals (or equival measure) propane?
b) need I notify home insurer of plans to put an incendiary device on my property?
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A) Varies but right now it’s pretty cheap. I paid $1.70/gal for 200 gallons this morning. Have seen it as low as $1.40 and as high as $4 a number of years ago.

B) Can’t and won’t answer that. Call your insurer. ;)

Side note: They won’t fill a 500 gallon tank to 500 gallons usually. Most places will max out at an 80% or 85% fill for safety and what not. Our company just dumps 200 gallons in twice a year which works out well for us for about three years then it gets uncomfortably low on that last fill. I call them and tell them to schedule it for 250 on that one so they can work it into the truck’s schedule.

Usually our spring fill is the one that gets me nervous. If they schedule wrong we could run out in a spring blizzard so I check the tank meter in late winter just in case.

That’s another reason I wouldn’t use the same tank for a genset until I understood how much it sucked down in a power outage. It would throw their delivery schedule all out of whack. If I manage the genset tank separately with falling myself for its fills, the house tank seems to be on a “good schedule” and I don’t want to screw that up.

That said I’ll talk to them first. They may prefer the larger tank and just flipping us to a different delivery schedule where the truck can do us in one big fill. Up to them.
 
I’m in the northeast and we lived through Sandy a few years ago...for us, we were out of power about 12 days. At the time, I had a gasoline generator, and we quickly learned that having the generator is one thing but keeping it fueled is another. Most of the gas stations in the area were closed, so after the first few days, best we could do is keep the power on a few hours a day.

Afterwards, I decided to upgrade the power back up and we ended up with diesel for a few reasons:
  1. There are dozens of sources for diesel in my area, versus only two propane dealers (both of which were closed during Sandy).
  2. In a serious situation, I can run my generator on home heating oil. We have oil heat, so I have several hundred gallons of heating oil on hand at any moment. This makes it easy to have a few weeks of fuel on hand.
  3. The cost per kilowatt is substantially lower. Some of this is because I was able to rely on my existing heating oil tanks (making the installation less expensive), plus I was able to find an industrial-grade diesel generator at a bargain price.
I’m happy with the result - it’s quiet, rugged and has worked perfectly every time it’s been needed, including one blizzard where we were without power for three days.

We went a little overboard with capacity (80kw), but the good news is that we can run everything in our home, just like when we’re on utility power. It produces true sine wave power, so I don’t need to worry about frying sensitive electronics (my old gas generator was “modified square wave”). The more industrial units are even designed to run nonstop...you can, for example, change the oil while it’s running.

We invested in an automatic transfer switch with a small battery stack that can go from line power to generator in under a minute. It runs once a week for a few minutes as a self-test so there aren’t any surprises when the time comes.

I suppose if we had natural gas, I might have gone that way, possibly with propane as a backup.
 
Propane's pretty cheap here, too. I seem to recall paying something under $2/gallon last time I had the tank filled, which was earlier this year. They do a "special" after winter's over. It's pretty incredible how little propane we go through cooking, even though we have a professional range (gas oven and 6 burners), about 75 gallons a year.

Vince had some good logic behind going with diesel, so there could be reasons worth considering for you there. Especially if you have other implements that run on diesel.
 
cowman said:
Hmm, like the 100# tanks you can still move in a pickup? One of those wouldn't be bad, I just wasn't sure how long they last. I don't really care about ugly tanks as much as the hassle of a tank lease.
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Well, look at gph on the gen set you're considering. Before we had gas service, I converted my 5,500 watt gen set to tri fuel. It burns about 1 gph so a 100lb tank is 20 hours

I would run a couple of hours am and a few hours before bed to keep food preserved and charge everything. We had wood heat as a backup though. In your case, I'd be looking at something big enough to run heat pump and a cheap 250 or 500 gallon tank (you can get buried ones if you prefer not seeing it).

Now I have natural gas, so I run off that and keep propane tanks for backup in case of earthquakes which would end natural gas and electricity


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
flyingron said:
Don't know where you are, but that's not the case most places The National Electrical Code requires the system to provide the FULL load when an automatic transfer switch is used. It makes no sense to do otherwise, you'd automatically throw more load on the generator than it could handle and it would be required to disconnect.
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That is apparently only true for legally required emergency generators. They must be sized to handle the entire connected load. Optional standby systems are only required to handle the maximum expected simultaneous load. I was told that here that's considered 85% of the connected load minus anything on automatic load shedding. That may or may not be defined in the code, but it is what we needed to pass inspection, which is what matters.
 
Lindberg said:
That is apparently only true for legally required emergency generators. They must be sized to handle the entire connected load. Optional standby systems are only required to handle the maximum expected simultaneous load. I was told that here that's considered 85% of the connected load minus anything on automatic load shedding. That may or may not be defined in the code, but it is what we needed to pass inspection, which is what matters.
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Pretty much what happened here, with our whole-house backup generator. They gave us a power limit and we selected components to meet that. All those components were re-wired to the new circuit breaker box that went with the generator. All the one that didn't remained on the old panel.

So when we lose power, the oven, clothes dryer, and floor-tile heat in the master bathroom shut down but everything else gets power after a ~15 second delay.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Pretty much what happened here, with our whole-house backup generator. They gave us a power limit and we selected components to meet that. All those components were re-wired to the new circuit breaker box that went with the generator. All the one that didn't remained on the old panel.

So when we lose power, the oven, clothes dryer, and floor-tile heat in the master bathroom shut down but everything else gets power after a ~15 second delay.

Ron Wanttaja
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Dude! No floor tile heat?! You savages. Uncivilized! LOL.
 
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Lindberg said:
That is apparently only true for legally required emergency generators. They must be sized to handle the entire connected load. Optional standby systems are only required to handle the maximum expected simultaneous load. I was told that here that's considered 85% of the connected load minus anything on automatic load shedding. That may or may not be defined in the code, but it is what we needed to pass inspection, which is what matters.
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I think the major problem is you are misusing terms combined.
While the rules are indeed more involved for Article 701 (Legally Required Standby Systems), what I was describing was the Article 702 (Optional Standby Systems) rule.

The rule is (and this is the only one that makes sense) that an automatic transfer switch (and the generator feeding it) needs to be able to handle 100% of the load connected to it (less anything automatically shed). I'm not sure what you are taking 85% of. What you have to do is compute the actual load (again that's not a number you just read off somewhere and take 85% of it), there are definite steps in the code. It's not 85% of your service size, or 85% of the main breaker or 85% of the airspoeed of an unladed swallow.
 
I've got a 300 gal tank for the shop and the propane company owns it. If I buy from them there is no rental charge or lease. If I don't buy from them they want their tank back. They charge using a budget system and they figure how much I'm using by degree days based on their local experience. I can't recall what the budget per gallon cost is for this next winter but I think it is in the $1.70 range. I only use the propane from about nov til april or may depending on weather of course. Shop stays at 65 deg through the winter to avoid condensation on the machinery.
I've looked at gennies for the house and wouldn't even consider propane here. I watch the gov liquidation sites for a good diesel. My cars burn diesel, the tractor burns diesel so the gennie will too. The house is all electric and has a ground source heat pump or geothermal heating and cooling system. Works very well. The house is more than twice the size of the shop but the budget electric bill which is based on total average use for the year divided by 12 is lower than the average for the shop which is propane heat and standard air conditioning. The heat pump is a gennie killer though. It has a pretty good surge when the compressor and blower kick on but doesn't use much running.

Frank
 
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