[N/A] Tesla turns a $312 mil profit in Q3

[Salty]

How is having two cars, one of which will rarely be driven, more practical than having one car that can do both missions while consuming zero or almost-zero liquid fuel in its primary one? That's not hard to pull off for most people. All you need is a plug-in hybrid that can run on batteries for the number of miles driven in a typical day.

In the strictest sense of "typical," five miles would do that for me. My typical daily drive, four days a week, is to the Post Office and back. Sometimes not even that. We don't have carrier-route mail delivery in Sparrow Fart, but we do have USPS Informed Delivery, which emails us when there's mail to pick up.

One day a week on average, I have to drive to the Greater Sparrow Fart Transfer Station to dump the garbage. That's about ten miles away and is usually performed in the same trip as the Post Office run. But because it's in the opposite direction, let's call it 12 miles. So if that's figured into "typical," now I need 24 miles battery capacity to avoid burning dinosaurs.

I also go shopping once a week. That's either a 54-mile round trip or a 100-mile round trip. If we call the longer trip "typical," then I need a 100-mile battery capacity. That's doable in a higher-end plug-in hybrid.

Maybe once a month, I make trips that exceed 200 miles round-trip. That would not be a reasonable battery capacity expectation for a hybrid, it would be a reasonable battery capacity for a mid-to high-level EV; so the EV would have that advantage.

However, I almost never drive between 100 and 200 miles in a day. It's usually either < 100 or > 200, making any battery capacity between 100 and 200 miles moot. So what is the cost advantage of the EV compared to a 100-mile plug-in hybrid in that scenario? Assuming 50 MPG when the plug-in hybrid is running on gas, about 48 gallons in a typical year (two gallons for each 100-mile gas-powered leg of a 200-mile trip, times two time each trip, times 12 trips a year).

Maybe two or three times a year, I make trips in excess of 400 miles round-trip in a day. Neither a hybrid nor any present EV can handle that on battery alone; but a 100-mile plug-in hybrid can handle it on battery and gas, most likely without even a gas stop depending on the tank size. But because of the rarity of those trips and because neither vehicle can handle it on electricity alone, I'll call the EV's fuel cost savings and the plug-in hybrid's convenience advantage a wash for my purposes.

At today's price at the Sparrow Fart Speedway, 48 gallons of gas will cost about $133.92. That's slightly more than what it would cost me to insure a second car for one month, assuming full coverage. If we limit it to liability, then it's about two month's insurance. So in terms of overall annual cost of operation (less acquisition cost), the insurance on a second car would add either six or twelve times as much as the fuel costs for a 100-mile plug-in hybrid for round-trips in excess of 100 miles.

In summary, no matter how I add it up, the numbers don't show any advantage in my owning two cars, one of which will be used only for long trips, compared to owning a 100-mile plug-in hybrid that can accomplish both missions.

Now if you need a second car anyway because you have two drivers, or because you need one that can pull a trailer, or because you need a pickup that can carry manure, or because you're an enthusiast and just want more cars around to play with, then I agree with you. An EV as the primary car and an ICE car that you'd have to own anyway as the secondary car might make sense, depending on what the second car is.

But to own a second car for the sole purpose of making trips that exceed the non-stop range of the first car just doesn't make sense mathematically for me nor, I suspect, for most "average" drivers.

Rich

One could argue that if you need a truck to tow or haul, just drive a truck. It’s still more economical than having a second car, unless, (maybe) you drive very long distances without hauling or towing.

 

[Bill]

In fact, I got to rather enjoy my stupid-looking suppository-in-a-tuxedo look BMW i3. It was really fun to pull up at a stop light next to a Mustang, Camaro, or other wanna-be sports car at a stop light, see their derisive looks, and then leave them in the dust.

They're letting you win.[1] Even the base 4 and 6 cyl Mustaros are running 0-60 in the mid to low 5's. The V-8's are in the low 4's. The fastest i3 Car and Driver has tested is the latest '18 model, and it runs 0-60 in 6.3.

[1] Or they flat out can't drive.

 

[hish747]

Have you gone on that easy 1000 mile road trip with your Tesla yet? I have met several that have done such a thing and most say never again. They did it once for the experience and much prefer their gas car for long trips like that.

I've driven my Tesla Model S 1600 miles from Minnesota to the east coast and thoroughly enjoyed the trip. The Supercharger network is fantastic and allows you to go anywhere in the USA. Of course it takes longer than driving a gas powered car, but then again it also affords you a new and different experience. I stopped and saw things I would never have seen had I just driven past cities and towns without stopping. It gave the road trip, a much more road trippy feel. I even got to drive through Canada and had no issues with the Superchargers there either. I'm not a snob, nor do I think anyone is wrong to buy a Leaf, Bolt or i3 etc. I considered all of those. From the technology to the acceleration, I just really, really love my Tesla. It is unlike any car I've ever owned before and I look forward to driving it every chance I get.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I've driven my Tesla Model S 1600 miles from Minnesota to the east coast and thoroughly enjoyed the trip. The Supercharger network is fantastic and allows you to go anywhere in the USA. Of course it takes longer than driving a gas powered car, but then again it also affords you a new and different experience. I stopped and saw things I would never have seen had I just driven past cities and towns without stopping. It gave the road trip, a much more road trippy feel. I even got to drive through Canada and had no issues with the Superchargers there either. I'm not a snob, nor do I think anyone is wrong to buy a Leaf, Bolt or i3 etc. I considered all of those. From the technology to the acceleration, I just really, really love my Tesla. It is unlike any car I've ever owned before and I look forward to driving it every chance I get.

I'm thinking of sticking my toes in the EV pool. I'm torn between a Tesla Model S and a Porsche Panamera.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm sick of going to the gas station and gas prices going al over the place. I'm sick of oil changes and ICE maintenance. I have plenty of that to do. I am intrigued and excited about the future of transportation and I wanted to try it out. I'm so glad I did! It's way more fun than I thought it would be. It's hard to explain to someone who is skeptical and a die hard piston head, but all I can say is, it's true what they say. Once you go electric you won't want to go back.

This!

the insurance is higher because they cost more to repair or replace at this time.

Not always. The insurance on the i3 was surprisingly low.

Related to insurance though is safety and the Bolt as well as the Teslas are the safest cars you can buy. They rank at the top in the crash tests. I guess surviving a crash is kind of practical in a way...

Tesla has built the safest cars on the road, including the only SUV that can get 5 stars in all categories on the car scale instead of the SUV scale - Probably because it's darn near impossible to roll over, with the CG about a foot off the ground thanks to the "skateboard" battery.

This is at least partially out of necessity - Otherwise, you can bet the FUDsters would be talking about how unsafe they are. They still love to talk about battery fires, when electric cars burn at a far lower rate than gas cars do.

There you go again, all focused on the once in awhile 400 mile trip to Grandma's or something. I think you have it all wrong. The primary car should be the one you drive every day. The one you drive less than 150 miles daily 90% of the year. That's the car that needs to be EV. The secondary car is the one you take on the long highways trips, probably 10% or less of the year. That's the car that ideally would be an ICE car, but could be a Tesla with the network if you have the patience.

This is why a Bolt, or Tesla if you have the money, makes an awesome primary car.

I think there's a big difference between, for example, my case and @RJM62 's case. He has one car for himself, period... And there are plenty of people for whom that is the case. For that use, a PHEV, a Tesla, or being OK with renting a gasser for longer trips with insufficient charging infrastructure are the options right now.

In my case, I have a primary vehicle, and I have a commuter. My wife drives the primary vehicle, and I drive the commuter. It's very easy for the commuter to be an EV, and that's an ideal use for most current EVs. My wife drives the primary vehicle, and when we travel as a family, we take that vehicle and I drive it - Mainly 'cuz it's easier to get the kid in and out of. We also drive that longer distances for comfort.

So yeah, I drive the commuter whenever possible - Both commuting and going to the store or wherever. But I sure wish the bigger one were an EV. It's not, yet, because I look at the options as follows:

1) Tesla X: Too expensive, even used. I don't think I've seen one below $70K yet. We're just getting to 3 years since the very first ones shipped though, so lease returns should start coming in and making a better used market... We're just not there yet.
2) Tesla S: Lower ride will make it more difficult to get the kid in and out, and they're just starting to get affordable on the used market. I've seen exactly none for under $20K, three for under $30K, but low $30K's is getting fairly common, upper $30Ks is very common, and there's oodles in the $40Ks. I expect that over the next couple of years, the Model 3 will continue to put a lot of downward pressure on used S prices.
3) Toyota Rav4 EV: No real support outside California, and if you get one that hasn't had the drive unit replaced... You'll need to at some point. IMO, the "Jdemo" fast charging mod is pretty much required equipment too. But the lack of support here is a non-starter, even though the prices are really good on these.

That's it for purely electric vehicles, but there's also...

4) Volvo XC90 T8 "Twin Engine" PHEV with turbo & superchargers. Too expensive (haven't seen one under $60K) and only 14 miles rated electric range.
5) Mitsubishi Outlander. Mitsubishi really screwed the pooch on this one. After introducing it outside of the US in 2013 and having it be the best-selling plug-in car for four years running, they didn't introduce it into the US until this year. MAJOR fail! Now, nearly 6 years later, it rates a solid "meh" with only 22 miles of electric range. With as SUV-happy as the US is, this was a gigantic missed opportunity on Mitsubishi's part.
6) Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. Really a nice vehicle, with good electric range for a PHEV, especially of its size. But, still relatively expensive because they've only been out since early 2017. And my beautiful bride said "No minivans."
7) BMW X5 xDrive 40e. Pretty much the same as the Volvo, only it came out later so an even smaller used market.

So, we'll keep driving the Rogue for a while yet.

How is having two cars, one of which will rarely be driven, more practical than having one car that can do both missions while consuming zero or almost-zero liquid fuel in its primary one? That's not hard to pull off for most people. All you need is a plug-in hybrid that can run on batteries for the number of miles driven in a typical day.

Bingo - For you, the Volt really makes a lot of sense.

I also go shopping once a week. That's either a 54-mile round trip or a 100-mile round trip. If we call the longer trip "typical," then I need a 100-mile battery capacity. That's doable in a higher-end plug-in hybrid.

The only one that'll do 100 miles on the battery and still have a gas backup is a 2017 or later BMW i3 REx with the 94aH battery.

But to own a second car for the sole purpose of making trips that exceed the non-stop range of the first car just doesn't make sense mathematically for me nor, I suspect, for most "average" drivers.

Not unless you're in a household that needs two cars anyway.

One interesting thing BMW does with the i3: Owning an i3 entitles you to something like a week or two per year of free rental on a BMW gasser. So, with the minor inconvenience of heading to a dealer to swap cars, the i3 can be the only car for a lot of people too. Pretty smart.

They're letting you win.[1] Even the base 4 and 6 cyl Mustaros are running 0-60 in the mid to low 5's. The V-8's are in the low 4's. The fastest i3 Car and Driver has tested is the latest '18 model, and it runs 0-60 in 6.3.

[1] Or they flat out can't drive.

Or that. But it's probably also that they didn't really push too hard on the gas pedal because they don't expect a car that looks somewhat like a Honda Fit wearing a halloween costume to jump off the line like that. I'm also rarely on a road that has stop lights and a speed limit high enough to get to 60, and the "Mustaros" are going to have their biggest advantage at the higher end. The i3 is BMW's fastest car from 0-30, even more so than the i8, but after that it quickly loses its advantage over all of the above.

 

[SCCutler]

I disagree with your take on the interior - It was purposefully designed that way, to be very minimalist and without focusing everything on the driver (hence, the center screen) - This is just the first time a production car's interior has been designed with the self-driving future in mind. When you think about it from that perspective, it makes a lot more sense.

Also, if you have only seen it in pictures as opposed to driving it - You need to try it. Actually experiencing it is vastly different than what you'd expect from the pictures.

Finally, I think it's *less* of a distraction than most car instrument panels. Because you don't have all the controls up all the time, the screen has very few things to look for, thus taking your attention off the road for less time, as opposed to vomiting buttons freaking everywhere. Again, expectations and reality are vastly different here.

I should clarify.

My principal objection (and it stands) is that all of the relevant information is well out of the driver's line of sight.

I would add that, while I have not played at all with the menu structure on a Model 3 (obviously, as I've never driven one), if it is anything at all like the menu structure on the Model X, then there are plenty of fiddly levels of menu to deal with for many functions, and I continue to believe that is unreasonably distracting.

What I don't know (and would not be at all surprised if it's in place) is the level to which the driver can administer the various functions of the car through voice commands. That could be a real game changer.

I actually like very clean - spare - design, and I really don't care for excessively-fiddly instrument panels and dashboards, either.

I think Musk said $40K was the target way back before the S first came out. In fact, they did sell the S for $40,000 *very* briefly, but such a low proportion of orders was that model that it didn't make sense to build a 40 kWh pack, so the people who had ordered 40s got a software-limited 60 instead and they nixed the 40. I'm guessing their margins were pretty low on that too, which probably helped its demise.

My point, exactly. Pretty much the same thing as has happened with the 3.

At this point, I'm still not giving him a pass on some of the misrepresentations he's made regarding forward product, and he is very lucky he made as good a deal as he did with the Securities and Exchange Commission. His statement about the "buyback" was criminal activity, full-stop. There are former corporate executives pulling hard time for much less-consequential behavior.

Waitaminute... You drive a Suburban, but a Tesla is too big?

It was an opportunity purchase when I bought it; I had just blown the engine (through egregious abuse) on my 2001 Caddy, and rather than put in a good used engine (which I should have done anyway), when I saw the 'Burb for sale by the side of the road in small-town Texas, for a firm-but-fair price, I went ahead and bought it. Given that my drive to work is, on a typical morning, approximately four minutes and 15 seconds, while the drive home is around seven minutes, the size of the vehicle doesn't matter that much, and the occasional utility of having the huge truck (whether for passengers or cargo), with a trailer hitch, is outstanding. Also, being a truck in Texas, it will always have value; I have been driving it for five or six years, and could probably sell it for better than half of what I have in it, and I would happily leave on a trip across the country and it tomorrow, if needed.

Of greater consequence, however, is that it is not my only "daily driver," the burden of which falls on the shoulders of another hand-me-down car, a BMW 535i (Celia drives a convertible again, now). I really like driving it, and while it is 10 years old, it is very comfortable, and gets remarkably good mileage on the highway. It is the car I take on trips unless I (1) need the load capacity of the Suburban, which is almost never, or (2) can fly the Bonanza which, of course, is always the preferred option for long-distance travel.

If I drove a lot of miles, and they were mostly local, an electric car could very quickly make a great deal of sense for me, and I would be lying if I said I had not shopped pre-owned Tesla S'; the right deals simply hasn't bubbled into place, yet.

By the way, have you seen the Christmas program perform on a Model X? You engage the program, the windows roll down, then a light show, accompanied by flapping going doors, waving mirrors (they look like a hippopotamus' ears) and opening and closing front doors, all to the accompaniment of Christmas music, ensues. I like the whimsy of that; someone at Tesla got paid to write that program, and it got delivered to the vehicle unbidden.

There is no question in my mind that they are going places; whether they will get there without filtering through a Chapter 11 filing, remains to be seen. I like their odds a lot better now, that I did a few months ago.

 

[tspear]

Curious, why so many people who argue against an EV compare the car they are currently driving and have paid off to the purchase of a new EV?

Getting a new car will almost never pencil out compared to a paid off car that works. Does not matter if ICE, diesel, hybrid or EV. The math does not support it (unless you are driving a panel van 300 miles too and from work every day).

Only compare new to new, or used to used. Comparing the financial of what you have to a new to you car just does not make sense...

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk

 

[Velocity173]

45.6 on a charge today. Not bad for a gen 1!

 

[SoonerAviator]

Curious, why so many people who argue against an EV compare the car they are currently driving and have paid off to the purchase of a new EV?

Getting a new car will almost never pencil out compared to a paid off car that works. Does not matter if ICE, diesel, hybrid or EV. The math does not support it (unless you are driving a panel van 300 miles too and from work every day).

Only compare new to new, or used to used. Comparing the financial of what you have to a new to you car just does not make sense...

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk

I don't know what you were reading but I (and a few others) specifically compared the price of a Tesla (Model 3 or S) to their equivalent size/class of ICE (like a loaded Honda Civic or Accord). The math doesn't support it then, either, even if you could find one of the unicorn $35K Tesla Model 3's. The math doesn't "work" for any of them vs ICE when you take into account total cost of ownership unless your electricity is free . . . even then payback is over a decade due to the initial cash outlay over ICE. EVs will get there, they aren't there yet from a financial perspective.

 

[deonb]

I don't know what you were reading but I (and a few others) specifically compared the price of a Tesla (Model 3 or S) to their equivalent size/class of ICE (like a loaded Honda Civic or Accord). The math doesn't support it then, either, even if you could find one of the unicorn $35K Tesla Model 3's. The math doesn't "work" for any of them vs ICE when you take into account total cost of ownership unless your electricity is free . . . even then payback is over a decade due to the initial cash outlay over ICE. EVs will get there, they aren't there yet from a financial perspective.

A 271 HP rear-wheel drive is not in the same class as a 143 HP front-wheel drive.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I should clarify.

My principal objection (and it stands) is that all of the relevant information is well out of the driver's line of sight.

Again, I would suggest trying it before you knock it - In some ways, it's less distracting, but in the ways that are important (ie speed), it's still close enough and large enough that I don't think it makes a difference. I don't have enough time with it to develop a firm opinion on this one, but what I hear from owners is that it's a non-issue.

And even if it were, you can just flip on Autopilot and then take a look.

What I don't know (and would not be at all surprised if it's in place) is the level to which the driver can administer the various functions of the car through voice commands. That could be a real game changer.

I haven't had time to play with the voice commands in the 3, and I've only had an X for a three-day weekend, but I was very impressed with the voice recognition on the X, especially when it came to navigation. It routed me to the correct destination every time, and the number of destinations it has to pick from when interpreting what you said far outstrips the number of possible commands. We even tried with my cousin's Japanese wife, even with her fairly-thick accent it worked fine. (It did not, however, understand when she actually spoke Japanese. )

My point, exactly. Pretty much the same thing as has happened with the 3.

So far. The new mid-range 3 that was introduced a week or two ago is a positive step; the fact that they're making a 20% margin already on the 3 is a good sign that they will be able to make a profitable short-range $35K 3. Musk said last week that he's expecting that to be about 6 months away. We'll see, come April! Tesla is already clearly reaping the benefits of the Gigafactory, without that they likely wouldn't be making a profit right now.

By the way, have you seen the Christmas program perform on a Model X? You engage the program, the windows roll down, then a light show, accompanied by flapping going doors, waving mirrors (they look like a hippopotamus' ears) and opening and closing front doors, all to the accompaniment of Christmas music, ensues. I like the whimsy of that; someone at Tesla got paid to write that program, and it got delivered to the vehicle unbidden.

Yup. Ran that on the X I rented a few times.

There's some other easter eggs, too - You can make the roadway in the dash when you're on autopilot look like the Rainbow Road from Mario Kart, and you can change it so that instead of a Tesla on the screen, you can have it look like the submarine car from The Spy Who Loved Me. It's not just a graphic change, either - The entire interface changes to meet the submersible theme, from the lowest suspension setting being "20,000" (leagues under the sea) and "Driver Options" changing to "Diver Options."

Most recently, they added a bunch of old Atari games to the screen (to play while supercharging?) and they're supposed to add Pole Position soon, controlled by the actual steering wheel and pedals.

45.6 on a charge today. Not bad for a gen 1!

View attachment 68586 View attachment 68587

Nice! The max electric mileage I got on my Fusion Energi was 33.2 IIRC - Not bad, for a 21-mile rated range! Percentage-wise, that should mean I can get the Volt up to 60 miles! (And in more good news, they say it's fixed, so I should get to go pick it up this weekend.)

 

[SoonerAviator]

A 271 HP rear-wheel drive is not in the same class as a 143 HP front-wheel drive.

How about we try something more meaningful than a HP-spec that can only be used sparingly without turning the range into mush? Interior volume/amenities/quality/typical use. The Civic has very comparable interior dimensions in terms of volume and leg room for front/rear passengers, trunk volume, similar overall length and track, etc. The people who would consider a Model 3 are similar to those looking at a Civic, especially at a potential $35K price-point. So, aside from the ability of the Tesla 3 to go 0-60 in 5.6 seconds, it's about the only benefit of the T3, that ability comes for an almost $10K purchase price premium. If you wanted to get an Accord, which is a nicer/larger sedan than the Tesla 3, you can match (if not beat) the base model Tesla, for less money.

 

[genna]

How about we try something more meaningful than a HP-spec that can only be used sparingly without turning the range into mush? Interior volume/amenities/quality/typical use. The Civic has very comparable interior dimensions in terms of volume and leg room for front/rear passengers, trunk volume, similar overall length and track, etc. The people who would consider a Model 3 are similar to those looking at a Civic, especially at a potential $35K price-point. So, aside from the ability of the Tesla 3 to go 0-60 in 5.6 seconds, it's about the only benefit of the T3, that ability comes for an almost $10K purchase price premium. If you wanted to get an Accord, which is a nicer/larger sedan than the Tesla 3, you can match (if not beat) the base model Tesla, for less money.

Not a lot of people cross-shop Model 3 and Civic. At least not for long. BMW 3 is also about the size of the Civic, but you don't see people compare these either. If you are shopping for a Civic, a Model 3 is not going to make sense to you as you correctly pointed out. If you are shopping for BMW 3 series, it quickly becomes an option if you can live with EV limitations.

Tesla is going after BMW/Audi/MB cars with both S(BMW 5) and 3(BMW 3-- it's in the name ). Not after Hondas. This is why it works(such as it is). It compares pretty well with performance, price, and even mx against these EU premium cars. This was a good strategy and is largely the reason it is the most popular EV. It is also the reason why they don't need to be cheaper to operate. People in this segment to not shop for value alone.

Bolt/Leaf are going after Civics and, while good cars, run head first into a problem. People who shop in this area are mostly(not all) value hunters. There are much better values in ICE cars in this segment even if you take fuel and mx into consideration for most.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Not a lot of people cross-shop Model 3 and Civic. At least not for long. BMW 3 is also about the size of the Civic, but you don't see people compare these either. If you are shopping for a Civic, a Model 3 is not going to make sense to you as you correctly pointed out. If you are shopping for BMW 3 series, it quickly becomes an option if you can live with EV limitations.

Tesla is going after BMW/Audi/MB cars with both S(BMW 5) and 3(BMW 3-- it's in the name ). Not after Hondas. This is why it works(such as it is). It compares pretty well with performance, price, and even mx against these EU premium cars. This was a good strategy and is largely the reason it is the most popular EV. It is also the reason why they don't need to be cheaper to operate. People in this segment to not shop for value alone.

Bolt/Leaf are going after Civics and, while good cars, run head first into a problem. People who shop in this area are mostly(not all) value hunters. There are much better values in ICE cars in this segment even if you take fuel and mx into consideration for most.

I understand that Tesla is going after the Bimmer/Audi group. That's no secret, since the selling price of a Model 3 is typically in M3 territory. My point is that Elon himself dubbed the Model 3 as bringing "EVs to the masses", but the masses aren't buying M3s, they're buying Civics and Accords for $35K or less.

Side note: it's not too hard to beat BMW on maintenance costs, lol.

 

[genna]

I understand that Tesla is going after the Bimmer/Audi group. That's no secret, since the selling price of a Model 3 is typically in M3 territory. My point is that Elon himself dubbed the Model 3 as bringing "EVs to the masses", but the masses aren't buying M3s, they're buying Civics and Accords for $35K or less.

Side note: it's not too hard to beat BMW on maintenance costs, lol.

^^Indeed.

I don't relly listen to what Elon says . Most of it is nonsense. Not sure when you priced M3 last, but it starts at $67K and goes above $90K loaded. My guess with about $80ish usual purchase price. M4 is even higher.

Regilar BMW 3 starts at $35K(probably more unicorn than Tesla) and tops out around $70K.
Model 3 tops out at around $70K.

This is the market Tesla is in. As such it has limitations of being a premium brand. Honda/Hyundai do not have to worry about losing their sales to Tesla, BMW/MB/AUDI, however, should worry

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This is the market Tesla is in. As such it has limitations of being a premium brand. Honda/Hyundai do not have to worry about losing their sales to Tesla, BMW/MB/AUDI, however, should worry

In reality, BOTH should be worried. BMW sold fewer cars (as in, not SUVs but cars, not overall vehicles) than Tesla did in August. They admitted that the Model 3 is putting a lot of pressure on that segment. And, the BMW 3-series is one of the top five most-traded-in-for-a-Tesla-Model-3 cars.

But, two more of those top 5 are the Civic and Accord. So, clearly there are a number of people who are making the financial leap to get a Tesla, and Honda is losing those sales. While that's likely not significant for them yet, it should be a troubling sign for them.

The last two on that top 5 list are the Prius and the Leaf. Toyota completely squandered their lead in electrified cars, fighting CARB and throwing money away on fuel cell R&D instead of developing an EV. Nissan has done okay with the Leaf and it's one of the most widespread non-Tesla EVs, but they have yet to come out with anything that competes with the Model 3 or the Bolt on range. It's clear, though, that the new "green" car of choice is the Model 3.

 

[genna]

In reality, BOTH should be worried. BMW sold fewer cars (as in, not SUVs but cars, not overall vehicles) than Tesla did in August. They admitted that the Model 3 is putting a lot of pressure on that segment. And, the BMW 3-series is one of the top five most-traded-in-for-a-Tesla-Model-3 cars.

But, two more of those top 5 are the Civic and Accord. So, clearly there are a number of people who are making the financial leap to get a Tesla, and Honda is losing those sales. While that's likely not significant for them yet, it should be a troubling sign for them.

The last two on that top 5 list are the Prius and the Leaf. Toyota completely squandered their lead in electrified cars, fighting CARB and throwing money away on fuel cell R&D instead of developing an EV. Nissan has done okay with the Leaf and it's one of the most widespread non-Tesla EVs, but they have yet to come out with anything that competes with the Model 3 or the Bolt on range. It's clear, though, that the new "green" car of choice is the Model 3.

I suspect that most of the Honda trade ins are upgrading and moving upmarket. Honda would probably lose these customers to a luxury brand anyway. Acura is a joke these days.

 

[Dav8or]

How is having two cars, one of which will rarely be driven, more practical than having one car that can do both missions while consuming zero or almost-zero liquid fuel in its primary one?

It's not. If you only want to, or can own one vehicle, the PHEV is a very good choice. Another option is to buy the BEV and then rent a car for the long trips. Electric cars aren't for everybody yet. You have to want one for whatever reason. It's still not about saving money. Kind of like buying a Corvette isn't about saving money, or buying a Mercedes isn't about saving money.

Having said that, a whole lot of people where I live and I suspect throughout the country, live in households with multiple vehicles. That is certainly the case with me. In this type of household, owning BEV is actually very easy and not really burdensome in any way. I would never tell anyone to buy a BEV to save on money, just as I would never tell anyone to buy an airplane to save on airline tickets. I will say that owning a BEV is painless, it's fun and it's not as expensive as it would seem as long as you don't buy a Tesla.

 

[Dav8or]

I suspect that most of the Honda trade ins are upgrading and moving upmarket. Honda would probably lose these customers to a luxury brand anyway. Acura is a joke these days.

Agreed. However, I will say that once you get hooked and really want an EV, they do inspire people to spend more than they otherwise would have. I think the Model 3 particularly has this effect. People just desire it and really want to join the Tesla club, so they will stretch their finances, or take out whatever loan to get there. Some of these ex Civic owners might be financially in over their head, just adding to the heaps of sub-prime auto loans out there already that threaten to bring the next economic meltdown.

 

[RJM62]

Agreed. However, I will say that once you get hooked and really want an EV, they do inspire people to spend more than they otherwise would have. I think the Model 3 particularly has this effect. People just desire it and really want to join the Tesla club, so they will stretch their finances, or take out whatever loan to get there. Some of these ex Civic owners might be financially in over their head, just adding to the heaps of sub-prime auto loans out there already that threaten to bring the next economic meltdown.

Maybe that explains my disinterest. I've never been much into clubs. I have to believe there's some practical benefit.

A lot of people consider me some kind of car fanatic and guru because of how I meticulously maintain them. But it's really just because they last longer that way. My OCD logging of literally everything I do to a car is a carry-over from my aviation training, but it also has practical benefits when selling or trading in a car. The buyer / dealer may look at me like I'm some kind of nut for logging that I added air to the tires, but they know the car was well-maintained.

Nowadays I'm getting calls from my teen-aged and young-adult relatives who have car questions. Word got around that I do my own oil changes, which I guess makes one a guru these days. They should have known me when I swapped the engine in a '68 Volkswagen Beetle in my driveway before breakfast one morning using nothing but a floor jack, an old tire, and some wrenches and screwdrivers. I'd get promoted from "guru" to "god." (It was pretty easy to do, by the way. It took about 45 minutes.)

Richard

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well... I've been driving a Model 3 for the past week. And now I get the hype:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/tesla-model-3-now-i-get-the-hype.114912/

This car really is the future of transportation. I'm blown away.