Mileage Tax to Replace Gas Tax ?

[Somedudeintn]

Georgia this year added a $200 fee to register electric cars to make up for revenues not gained from gas taxes.

But they gave me $5,000 last year for leasing my leaf so I'm not too upset.

 

[Morgan3820]

Please tell me your not against more fuel-efficient cars?

If so your like my grandparents who think digging a giant hole, dumping their toxic trash and burning it is THEIR RIGHT!

If I own the hole...

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

The problem with most American roads is not whether there is enough money but rather how it is applied. Roads these days are being built to last about two years, it was an idea a few years ago to keep road workers employed. The result has been pitiful because they develop cracks and potholes faster than anyone can fix them. There is a road in my area that the town experimented with using European road construction standards. There was a higher initial cost because of the additional labor and materials so the voting public was a bit up in arms about it but here we are at least a decade later and the road hasn't been touched once. It's easy to say this build quality has more than paid for itself.

 

[wsuffa]

I'm thinking add-on dongle that can supply mileage data and driving skill data. The latter is coming to an insurance company near you.... Why shouldn't big broth... Er the government get in on the action?

 

[Ted]

I'm thinking add-on dongle that can supply mileage data and driving skill data. The latter is coming to an insurance company near you.... Why shouldn't big broth... Er the government get in on the action?

I refuse to put one of those "snapshot" things in. That's one reason why I won't even call Progressive for a quote, much less use them.

The fact that in 15 years of driving I've had 0 accidents should be sufficient.

 

[RJM62]

Ah, I see. Make sense. For a second my blood pressure was rising!

I thought it was pretty obvious, actually. But I'm glad that we have that all sorted out now.

Fuel taxes accomplish both proportional taxation and rewarding efficiency. Unlike increasing registration fees or attaching surcharges, fuel taxes are proportional to distance driven. But they also allow drivers to reduce their taxation by purchasing more fuel-efficient cars, combining trips, car-pooling, etc.

Rich

 

[N747JB]

Georgia this year added a $200 fee to register electric cars to make up for revenues not gained from gas taxes.

But they gave me $5,000 last year for leasing my leaf so I'm not too upset.

But, they've dropped the tax credit now!

 

[Luvrv8]

I can see it now. We get the mileage charge and in a couple years they still are not making the money they want, a added gas tax would come in effect to fill the gap.

 

[LDJones]

Tax the damned heavy trucks according to the damage they do to the roads.

They already do.

 

[kyleb]

I see another beurocracy in the making,will need another arm of the govt to monitor the mileage reporting.

This. Instead of monitoring 500,000 (or whatever) gas stations, they will need to monitor 300,000,000 vehicles. I can't imagine a bigger waste of money.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Tax the damned heavy trucks according to the damage they do to the roads.

And then pass the increased cost of freight transportation to the consumer to pay the taxes that are increased for the trucks.


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[deonb]

And then pass the increased cost of freight transportation to the consumer to pay the taxes that are increased for the trucks.

Which they should. It's part of their operating costs.

The roads have to be maintained regardless. Either you pass the usage cost on to the people who directly and indirectly benefit from the roads, or you pass it on to someone who has nothing to do with it.


Now if you want to make the case that roads should be paid for using progressive taxation instead... that's a whole different story.

 

[cowman]

The problem with most American roads is not whether there is enough money but rather how it is applied. Roads these days are being built to last about two years, it was an idea a few years ago to keep road workers employed. The result has been pitiful because they develop cracks and potholes faster than anyone can fix them. There is a road in my area that the town experimented with using European road construction standards. There was a higher initial cost because of the additional labor and materials so the voting public was a bit up in arms about it but here we are at least a decade later and the road hasn't been touched once. It's easy to say this build quality has more than paid for itself.

This is significant, we absolutely can build better roads that needs less maintaining and will cost less in the long term but nobody will support biting the bullet to do it right the first time.

Symptomatic of a lot of problems in our country and society really... nobody is willing to invest in long term solutions anymore. Always the quick fix to get by another year or two and never looking forward to the next 10-20.

 

[PaulS]

Instead of raising the gas taxes, why don't we demand what they collect now are spent on roads?

 

[Bob Noel]

http://abc7.com/news/ca-considers-replacing-gas-tax-with-mileage-fees/1167775/

Doesn't sound like to bad of an idea. Tax people for usage instead of a bias gas tax. With more and more hybrids and electric vehicles on the road how else are we suppose to pay to maintain the roads?

I'm speaking from a state that has horrible roads because of the asinine way we pay for and maintain them.

Obviously it will require a secure way of reporting your mileage to the state. Maybe a system that connects to your internet when parked that downloads the daily total. GPS would work but it's also inaccurate in a range of environments.

(btw - Why is this thread even allowed on POA anymore?)

"instead"? are people really so naive to think that the government would replace a tax instead of just adding a tax?

 

[dans2992]

That is a viable option. I think are registration fees are only $25 a year.

Here in AZ it's based on the value and age of the car. Brand new top of the line car is around $750. My 8 year old car is about $250.

It's more than most other states, but we have no tolls and our property taxes are 80% _less_ than IL for a comparable value home. If they eliminate the gas tax, I'll pay more for registration, whatever...



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[Let'sgoflying!]

A mileage tax sounds comparable to a hobbs meter tax, in airplanes.
Is everyone on board for that?

 

[1600vw]

Why not clean up our politics and take the money that is already allocated to roads and have it go to roads. I remember when they wanted to start the lottery some 40 years ago. They spouted that the excess money from this lottery would go to roads and schools. What happened here?

No one wants to stop the spending. Just make more revenue. What good will more revenue make when the revenue we have coming in for this does not go to it anyway.

This reminds me of the time when they pushed cable TV down our throats. We were told we have to pay for tv, but commercials will be less for they will not need the revenue from the commercials because everyone will be paying to watch TV. But that is another story but really the same story.

 

[Norman]

They already do.

Michigan allow some of the heaviest trucks in the country, and the breaks they get are unconscionable. No way are they paying their fair share. They have a pretty good lobby.

 

[1600vw]

You also have states like Illinois. How we do our roads or repair our roads. This goes to the lowest bidder. They use the cheapest labor and cheapest material. Once they leave the job site or the road is complete the company who built said road is not responsible for it. If a pot hole forums the next day this company is not responsible to repair it.

Throw all the money you want at this system and roads only last so long. They are built using the cheapest materials and just can not stand up to the abuse a road see's. Then we are told its weather related as to why the roads look as they do. Things need to change before we just throw more money at the problem.

 

[Somedudeintn]

But, they've dropped the tax credit now!

Yep. And I won't be leasing/buying the leaf after my lease is up at the end of the year. The economics with the credit were just too good to pass up. I'm guessing the state was losing quite a bit of money with the credit though.

 

[flyingron]

Virginia jacked up the registration price of those with hybrids and electric cars to counter the fact that they were paying less in gasoline tax. Yeah, nothing like PUNISHING people for conserving and helping the environment. They subsequently reversed the hybrid tax aspect (fortunately for me, my mostly electric Volt counts as a hybrid and not an EV, I got my tax back).

The next thing will be an additional tax on people who don't drive much. They're obviously not paying their fair share. Wear and tear on the roads ain't nothing compared to the cost of building them in the first place.

 

[RJM62]

You also have states like Illinois. How we do our roads or repair our roads. This goes to the lowest bidder. They use the cheapest labor and cheapest material. Once they leave the job site or the road is complete the company who built said road is not responsible for it. If a pot hole forums the next day this company is not responsible to repair it.

Throw all the money you want at this system and roads only last so long. They are built using the cheapest materials and just can not stand up to the abuse a road see's. Then we are told its weather related as to why the roads look as they do. Things need to change before we just throw more money at the problem.

That's really the government's fault more so than the contractor's.

At various stages in the project, the work should be inspected. If the work is not up to the standards specified in the Invitation to Bid (or whatever the equivalent is in Illinois), then the contractor shouldn't be paid. Likewise, if the standards specified in the ITB are inadequate, or if they do not contain warranty or performance bond requirements, that is the government's fault.

If the government uses a lowest-bidder system without a minimum acceptable bid, and it has established the precedent of being willing to pay for shoddy work, then shoddy work is what they're going to get.

In New York, the biggest problem with road work is that it takes forever. I remember that it took them something like seven years to replace the Exit 30 ramp on the LIE some years ago. Closer to where I live now, it took more than a year to sandblast, re-paint, and re-surface a little trestle bridge of maybe 60 feet in length. Everything moves in slow motion when it comes to road work.

The quality, however, is usually very good. Most roads around here are on a ten-year re-paving cycle, and they hold up pretty well. They really don't look all that bad at the end of ten years despite the harsh winters, the salt, and the popularity of studded tires in the winter. Even the major roads downstate are usually in pretty good shape. (City streets, not so much; but the city does most of its own road maintenance on local streets.)

What it comes down to is that a lowest-bidder system needs safeguards in the form of well-crafted specifications, payment milestones with inspections before payments are made, and some combination of minimum acceptable bids, exclusions of companies that have performed poorly in the past, preferences for companies that have performed well in the past, and performance bonds. If those safeguards are not in place, then what you're going to get is shoddy work.

Rich

 

[1600vw]

z

That's really the government's fault more so than the contractor's.

At various stages in the project, the work should be inspected. If the work is not up to the standards specified in the Invitation to Bid (or whatever the equivalent is in Illinois), then the contractor shouldn't be paid. Likewise, if the standards specified in the ITB are inadequate, or if they do not contain warranty or performance bond requirements, that is the government's fault.

If the government uses a lowest-bidder system without a minimum acceptable bid, and it has established the precedent of being willing to pay for shoddy work, then shoddy work is what they're going to get.

In New York, the biggest problem with road work is that it takes forever. I remember that it took them something like seven years to replace the Exit 30 ramp on the LIE some years ago. Closer to where I live now, it took more than a year to sandblast, re-paint, and re-surface a little trestle bridge of maybe 60 feet in length. Everything moves in slow motion when it comes to road work.

The quality, however, is usually very good. Most roads around here are on a ten-year re-paving cycle, and they hold up pretty well. They really don't look all that bad at the end of ten years despite the harsh winters, the salt, and the popularity of studded tires in the winter. Even the major roads downstate are usually in pretty good shape. (City streets, not so much; but the city does most of its own road maintenance on local streets.)

What it comes down to is that a lowest-bidder system needs safeguards in the form of well-crafted specifications, payment milestones with inspections before payments are made, and some combination of minimum acceptable bids, exclusions of companies that have performed poorly in the past, preferences for companies that have performed well in the past, and performance bonds. If those safeguards are not in place, then what you're going to get is shoddy work.

Rich

I agree. Its a government deal. As to the politics of it all, I only know what was reported a few years ago when I read a story about this. What I posted was what I read. Yeck it all could have been wrong. But it sounded right or how we do things in Illinois.

As to building a bridge. I lived in Sacramento CA. They replaced a bridge on one of the major highways there. They shut down the road over night and replaced the bridge. I never saw such a feat in all my years. I also watch them build an entire neighbor hood in one week. Every home was done with yards installed and all in a week. It amazed me. Here in Illinois it too takes years to get this type of work done. Not in CA. they do this type of work in days not years or months.

 

[Mike Strader]

Tax the damned heavy trucks according to the damage they do to the roads.

Weight is the answer. Keep the gas tax and charge the annual license plate renewal according to the weight of the vehicle. That would be a fair and equitable to pay for what you use.

vehicle toll transponders would allow a state to track your vehicle.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

"Tax the damned heavy trucks..."

Right, so that all the goods we purchase every day from toothpaste to milk to oil to clothes can skyrocket in price because the suppliers now have a massive additional cost to transport their merchandise.

You lot are going to have to think a little deeper than that. I can't believe how blind you are to how extremely a pseudo-solution like that would affect you.

 

[flyingron]

Much as with paying for aviation infrastructure every body has ideas of how the costs should be fairly apportioned. My feeling is whatever scheme should have relatively low overhead with respect to the money collected. Arguing that the revenue collection system will pay for itself is somewhat disingenuous, primarily benefiting someone (like the Airlines) who get a win with the new scheme or the people who profit on the construction of the billing infrastructure.

A classic example is a lot of toll roads where they find that that the usage sensitivity of collecting the tolls eats up a substantial part of the revenue collected.

 

[Bob Noel]

"Tax the damned heavy trucks..."

Right, so that all the goods we purchase every day from toothpaste to milk to oil to clothes can skyrocket in price because the suppliers now have a massive additional cost to transport their merchandise.

You lot are going to have to think a little deeper than that. I can't believe how blind you are to how extremely a pseudo-solution like that would affect you.

wait, what? do you mean to suggest that taxes can affect prices and buying decisions?

 

[wsuffa]

Around here, they've kept the gas tax and gotten punch drunk on converting roads to toll roads.

Our worst road, and one of the very worst in the nation, is about to lose one lane, which will be given to a PPP contractor to turn into a toll lane. 25% loss of taxpayer-funded capacity.

 

[N747JB]

Yep. And I won't be leasing/buying the leaf after my lease is up at the end of the year. The economics with the credit were just too good to pass up. I'm guessing the state was losing quite a bit of money with the credit though.

Yes, and I believe that Nissan sold more Leafs in Georgia than any other state. For some reason they targeted Georgia, I think it was the state tax credit, now the dealers are having a really hard time selling them, especially with gas under $2.00.

 

[bnt83]

Aren't they changing most of the carpool lanes to pay the state lanes in California?

 

[JHW]

Seems like a lot of effort to reinvent what used to be called a toll road.

 

[cowman]

That's really the government's fault more so than the contractor's.

At various stages in the project, the work should be inspected. If the work is not up to the standards specified in the Invitation to Bid (or whatever the equivalent is in Illinois), then the contractor shouldn't be paid. Likewise, if the standards specified in the ITB are inadequate, or if they do not contain warranty or performance bond requirements, that is the government's fault.

If the government uses a lowest-bidder system without a minimum acceptable bid, and it has established the precedent of being willing to pay for shoddy work, then shoddy work is what they're going to get.

In New York, the biggest problem with road work is that it takes forever. I remember that it took them something like seven years to replace the Exit 30 ramp on the LIE some years ago. Closer to where I live now, it took more than a year to sandblast, re-paint, and re-surface a little trestle bridge of maybe 60 feet in length. Everything moves in slow motion when it comes to road work.

The quality, however, is usually very good. Most roads around here are on a ten-year re-paving cycle, and they hold up pretty well. They really don't look all that bad at the end of ten years despite the harsh winters, the salt, and the popularity of studded tires in the winter. Even the major roads downstate are usually in pretty good shape. (City streets, not so much; but the city does most of its own road maintenance on local streets.)

What it comes down to is that a lowest-bidder system needs safeguards in the form of well-crafted specifications, payment milestones with inspections before payments are made, and some combination of minimum acceptable bids, exclusions of companies that have performed poorly in the past, preferences for companies that have performed well in the past, and performance bonds. If those safeguards are not in place, then what you're going to get is shoddy work.

Rich

You're right, but with state budgets being tight and the public being rabidly opposed to paying more money in taxes in any way how the heck does a politician manage to push for higher quality roads without getting burned in the next election?

 

[wsuffa]

Seems like a lot of effort to reinvent what used to be called a toll road.

Here they won't call it a toll road. No way, no how. even after a rash of accident and outrageous charges to those who used it without a toll tag (because it said "express", which means no exits elsewhere). Even the state is in the game saying they can't (and won't) out "toll lanes" on the signs.

It's "Express Lanes".... free for 3+ in car, toll for 1 or 2.

There are those that call them "Lexus Lanes".

 

[EppyGA]

Around here, they've kept the gas tax and gotten punch drunk on converting roads to toll roads.

Our worst road, and one of the very worst in the nation, is about to lose one lane, which will be given to a PPP contractor to turn into a toll lane. 25% loss of taxpayer-funded capacity.

We call them Lexus lanes.

 

[eetrojan]

Georgia this year added a $200 fee to register electric cars to make up for revenues not gained from gas taxes..

That seems like a fairly good solution.

 

[flyingron]

That seems like a fairly good solution.

THey should then get a $200 credit for reducing by 300% the carbon emissions (even if they were sucking juice from a coal fired plant).

I think there's at least one state with a "wheel tax" where they tax your tires. Now there's an interesting relationship between usage and revenue.

 

[jkaduk]

Aren't they changing most of the carpool lanes to pay the state lanes in California?

They're not changing to pay the state, they are adding that option. You can still carpool, drive an electric or certain hybrids, or ride a motorcycle in them for free.

 

[Bob Noel]

are taxes intended to generate revenue?

or are taxes intended to pay for services provided?

or are taxes intended to discourage an activity?

 

[Shepherd]

For those of us that live out in the boondocks, a mileage tax is reason to go to war. It's 7 miles to the nearest store, 45 miles to the doctor's office, 29 miles to the dentist. We're already being taxed to pay for the New York City transit system. I think big cities should be taxed to subsidize my life style.